Talk:Madonna Oriente

Untitled
Does anyone else think that this page is not NPOV?? It seems to give creedence to the existance of this society (which sounds highly improbable given the claims about animals being eaten and revived etc). Gil-Galad


 * Some things should be read as a rapport. As to the society, perhaps people gathered and had rituals in which they experienced (mentally) these things. I don't know why this would not be possible - vivid imagination, inventing some things, etc. If you wish to rephrase it, you're welcome. It's not a featured article (yet ;). --Eleassar777 13:27, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Gil, I agree. The whole thing sounds a bit far-fetched (a pair of EVERY animal at every ceremony? that rings a bell..., and the whole bones being revived bit.....). Plus, it's usually not a good sign when the ENTIRE edit history consists of only 1 user.... though at least some external sources are listed -- YggdrasilRoot 13:37, 12 May 2005 (UTC)


 * and this article seems to be a word for word translation of a german essay by Stephanie Guillen Niubo (at least "The Story" portion lines up with the available preview on Hausarbeiten.de). Since this essay is available for sale, I'm not sure what the copyright situation is. any thoughts? "Archaistische Erklärungsversuche der Hexenverfolgungen während der Frühen Neuzeit" at http://www.hausarbeiten.de/faecher/vorschau/29565.html  -- YggdrasilRoot 14:05, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

This is NOT TRUE and I will demand that someone translates the page from German into English before you burn me on a stake. It is one of the sources, but one of many. The use of facts (what ladies said) as given on a page is not copyright infrigment and never will be. Otherwise, as I already said, you have every right to go and edit the article. And how could you expect the article to be edited by more than one person if it is amongst the NEWEST articles. --Eleassar777 14:40, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Complete Rewrite Aug 7, 2006
OK, I have completely rewritten this as a non-credulous, non-Wiccan-devotional article -- using the facts as presented in the original article.

I, like you, have absolutely no idea whether any of those facts -- or the whole event -- is accurate, inaccurate, or entirely fabricated.

This subject should be researched and confirmed in objective, non-Wiccan, sources about the Inquisition, and about the mythography of the "domina oriens" term.

Your mainstream reference works should be added to the References section.

I've reluctantly not included detailed content about the women's stories as I can't determine what is in any actual historical records from the time, versus what is neo-pagan expansion. The entire story (as actually quoted by some inquisitor) could be quoted if it can be found in a reliable source.

Historically-credible expansion on exactly how the Inquisition pursued the events would of course be great. The big question is how the women have (as claimed here) knowlege of occult themes that a respectable Catholic lady in the Middle Ages shouldn't have -- and yet can't produce (under torture) the actual address of Ms. Oriente's mansion for the inquisitors to stop by and visit.

I've removed some of the detail about the women, inquisitors, and penance, as the article is about the Madonna Oriente figure, not the women. I've eliminated the details about the develoment of the persecution of witches as well for like reasons. The women can get an article about them, in the context of persecution of alleged witches, if anyone would like to find objective mainstream historical information about them.

I've reluctantly left in the existing See Also content which seems a bit advocatory, and the References content which I hope no one takes as reliable sources.

names
Are the English translations of these names somehow official or traditional? If not, there are other ways of translating them. Oriente could simply mean "East" (the etymological origin of the English "Orient"), as is reflected in earlier versions of the article. Also, the "of the" is not a direct translation but makes the translated phrase smoother. I think a direct translation in this respect might retain the concept of this figure as a woman who interacted with other people, not just an abstract deity...although I am not advocating changing it to "Mrs. East" or anything like that. Any thoughts from someone more knowledgeable? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.251.24.161 (talk) 09:21, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Inquisition
Are you sure they were executed by INQUISITION? E.g. by Catholic Church, which oficially CONDEMNED witch trials and for centuries was of the opinion, that witches does not exist? This is a bit contradictory... Szopen (talk) 12:31, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Richella?
The link to Richella is to a plant, and there is not a disambiguation for the name. In articles that are not related to the plant, the citations (if there is one) come back to Carlo Ginzburg (see Holda, Perchta, Benandanti, Witches' Sabbath). A Google search finds "Richella goddess" only 575 times, and those that are actually related to this subject are direct quotes or slight paraphrasing of Ginzburg. Who was Richella before Ginzburg started writing about her? Why is there nothing about her that does not quote or paraphrase Ginzburg? 16:43, 21 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.234.215.133 (talk)