Talk:Mai-Kai Restaurant

WP:FOOD Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Restaurants or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. You can find the related request for tagging here -- TinucherianBot (talk) 10:17, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Related Restaurants and Bars
I don't understand why this section was removed, it seemed relevant given the cult appeal of places like this from that era. Should the removed links be restored under See Also? Geoffb91 (talk) 21:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Building cost, and Don the Beachcomber heritage
A recent edit changed the original construction cost from "nearly a million dollars" to "$350,000". The "nearly a million dollars" figure came from the National Register application. But the source they used may not be the most credible. From the NRHP application, page 11: "Borrowing $100,000 from the Pan American bank and $300,000 from their mother,<29> Bob and Jack were able to break ground in 1956. The restaurant opened December 28th that same year and cost nearly a million dollars to complete.<30>" Reference 30 is: Teitelbaum, Tiki Road Trip, p. 110. Expanded reference is Teitelbaum, James. Tiki Road Trip: A Guide to Tiki Culture in North America, Santa Monica Press, Santa Monica, CA, 2007. Possibly not the most reliable source for this information. The Broward Palm Beach New Times reference says it cost "about $400,000". I would suggest using that figure, unless some has a reliable source reference for $350,000.

Also, a sentence was added in the lead claiming "It is the last restaurant/bar in existence carrying on the traditions of service and serving the original drink recipes of Don the Beachcomber's." I'm sorry, but we can't include this in the article unless it is referenced to an independent reliable source. It needs a source because it is controversial (I'm sure the operators of the current Don the Beachcomber restaurants would challenge it). I have deleted it for now, but we can talk about it here. --MelanieN (talk) 21:29, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

The source for these edits is my book on the Mai-Kai coming out in August.

I have various source articles from the 1950 and 1960s reporting the cost of the Mai-Kai at $300,000 and $350,000 and I have chosen the later as the correct number. There may have been more costs as indicated by interviews, but the bank financing was for $350,000. James Teitelbaum is a friend and his source is word of mouth. I heard that story and told it myself before I did the research. The brothers put in $30,000 each and the mother Betty put in $40,000. The rest came via the bank.

As for the current Don the Beachcombers compared to the original, if you look at the Don the Beachcomber wiki itself it talks about the new one having obtained the name only and none of the recipes. There is no Maitre D', no seating captain as is at the Mai-Kai and was at the original Don's. The Mai-Kai had the original recipes from Don's and has served them continually since 1956. The new Don's only has the recipes as published by Jeff Berry, which are not 100% and not complete. Swankpad (talk) 22:09, 23 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your reply. Regarding the cost: can you give us one of those "various source articles" you are using, maybe the one you regard as the most reliable, so we can use it as a reference? Word of mouth from a friend is not acceptable. "I heard that story" is not a reliable source. We need some published reference that says $350,000. If we can't find one, we will use "about $400,000" since that has appeared in a generally reliable source. (BTW if the bank financing was $350,000, the two brothers put in $30,000 each, and the mother put in $40,000, doesn't that come out to be $450,000?)


 * Regarding whether the Mai-Kai is the only legacy of Don the Beachcomber, what you are presenting here is argument and WP:Original research, neither of which is acceptable for a Wikipedia article. We are an encyclopedia, a tertiary source, and we only post what has already been reported in secondary sources. So unless we can find an independent reliable source saying explicitly that Mai-Kai is the "last restaurant/bar in existence" carrying out D the B's legacy, we can't say it.


 * I understand that these are things that you personally believe - rather, that you KNOW. But for Wikipedia purposes, "I know this to be true" is not enough. We need to know your source - HOW do you know? This paradoxical (but necessary) approach is summarized at WP:Verifiability, not truth. --MelanieN (talk) 23:09, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I have several articles quoting the financing/cost numbers that I mostly received from the Mai-Kai's scrapbooks in my research. Few have an attribution, i.e. Date and source. They cut them out without that info. How do I put that here? This isn't just my word. I am the official historian for the Mai-Kai and my book on their history comes out in August. I am the source. Much of the info in this article comes straight from my research. I could point to a number of things that only I knew before I shared it. I added my book as a reference. Swankpad (talk) 19:36, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Huh. I have never seen a reference to a book that hasn't yet been published but maybe it'll work. You obviously (!) have access to it, and it will be published by a legitimate publisher (not self-published) which is important. Your price figure is based on news articles; that's probably OK; it isn't necessary for them to be available online, although it's too bad there is no date or source. Anyhow, that price is close to what the New Times said. Well, I'm inclining toward accepting you (or rather your book) as a reference on these things, but I'm still uneasy about claiming that the existing Don the Beachcomber restaurants don't count as carrying on the Don the Beachcomber traditions. That is not an "independent" claim; it's a claim made by the restaurant itself (through you). It's a conflict of interest claim. I'll let it go for now, but if someone objects you may have to come back here and support it. --MelanieN (talk) 20:20, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * P.S. Oh, good, I see you added an independent source! That's very helpful. --MelanieN (talk) 20:22, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
 * ...although I see he claims here that there are three such places. --MelanieN (talk) 20:35, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Jeff mentions 3, the Tiki Ti, in LA, which was opened by Ray Buhen in 1961, one of Don the Beachcomber's original head bartenders. They do serve Don's recipes, but it seats about 30-40 people and is closer to a college dive bar than a high end restaurant like the original Don's. There is no food. There is no staff other than the bartenders. It can't begin to be compared. Forbidden Island is a new bar opened by Martin Cate, and his only recipes are those he received from Jeff Berry from Jeff's books. And again, the staff is not the same, the service is not the same. That leaves the Mai-Kai which has been serving Don's drinks since 1956. They hired away the staff at Don's in Chicago and based their structure on that. The Mai-Kai staff was trained in the procedures of the Don the Beachcomber staff because they were all veterans with over a decade with Don's. That is still how they run things and many people there were trained by Andy Tonata of Don's and recall his ways. The Tiki Ti is the only other place still serving Don's recipes, but they don't serve Cantonese food or have a black jacket and white pants wearing Maitre D' to great you, or a Seating Captain watching over the dining room service, and so on. The Tiki Ti has a normal bar, the Mai-Kai still makes all their drinks in the back of the house out of site as Don did. And there are drinks with ice sculptures and garnishes going back to Don that Tiki Ti does not do. They also serve the Flaming Coffee Grog which Tiki Ti does not. There are lots of reasons. The man who started the new Don the Beachcomber, Art Snyder, only bought the right to the name. He is also serving drinks published by Jeff Berry. Don the Beachcomber's Chicago won the Holiday Award for many years. That was a big benchmark then, like a Michelin star rating. The Mai-Kai worked to also earn the Holiday Award for many years to prove they were their equal, if not superior. My claim is about drinks AND service, not just drinks. Trader Vic's comes closest today to an environment of Don the Beachcomber's. A fancy meal. Mai-Kai is on that level, the Tiki Ti is pretty much a dive bar with fancy cocktails. Swankpad (talk) 15:00, 25 February 2016 (UTC)