Talk:Mainland Chinese

Cross-article Redundancy
This article is repeated in the article Mainland China. Is it necessary? User:Kowloonese, 15 Apr 2003


 * I believe this problem has since been rectified, with "Mainland China" having only a minimal summary. --Menchi 03:22 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Dàlù rén definition
Removed the sentence about da-lu ren excluding all residents of Taiwan. A person who recently immigrated to Taiwan from Mainland China (as would be the case with someone who was married) would probably be classified as a da-lu ren. They almost certainly would not be a wai-sheng-ren.

There aren't many people in this category, but they are enough so that *all* is false.

Roadrunner


 * The deleted sentence clarifies and contrasts the two definitions. It can be rectified. I have restored it and incorporated your info. --Menchi 07:31 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Move?
Should the bulk of this article be moved to Mainlander, Chinese? Jiang 23:28 16 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Not a bad idea, but Chinese Mainlander is more natural. "Mainlander, Chinese" can't be used at all in article in actual sentences. --Menchi 03:22 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Perhaps specifying Mainlanders on Taiwan as "Chinese" may be inaccurate and to some, offensive. I assume most post-war waisheng ren are of the Pan-Blue Coalition, who consider themselves legimate members of China (hence Chinese), but aren't there waisheng ren, especially second-generations, who consider themselves Taiwan an integral part of them, and hence Taiwanese? --Menchi 04:58 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * If they identify themselves as "mainlanders" in the first place, they must acknowledge the existence of a mainland. And what can this "mainland" be other than the Chinese mainland? It is not offensive for the people who use this term to identify themselves because the "offense" is implied in the term itself. If they found it offensive, they wouldn't be using this term. Perhaps those members second-generation dont call themselves "waishengren"... --Jiang 05:08 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * Or you could try "Mainlander in Taiwan", but there's no escaping the fact that the mainland in "Mainlander" refers to Mainland China.Jiang 12:37 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * How about "Mainlander of Taiwan", would that be basically the same as "Taiwanese Mainlander"? --Menchi 12:52 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I think so. That would be misleading. With the current focus of the article, Mainlander in Taiwan seems fine, but it should be also noted that daluren are willing to refer to themselves as such, and that term is regularly used overseas (so for a larger scope Chinese Mainlander seems for accurate and fitting). Jiang 14:34 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * The two definitions would need distinct pages, since they're basically unrelated, if the 2nd definition is to be elaborated. But can it be elaborated? Or will it always be a dictionary definition (one-paragraph, or worse, like now, one-sentence)? Do you know what to write there? If so, then the separation could proceed even further into 3 pages. --Menchi 15:02 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I don't know how to elaborate more than what is there, other than to write that the term "daluren" is also used by overseas Chinese. The connection is already highlighted in the article, in that they both essentially mean "Mainlander". I dont think a separation is necessary. Jiang 15:30 22 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I don't think that daluren is anything more than a a dictionary definition, and so it's probably not necessary to create a third page. Unlike waishengren, there is really little "self-consciousness" amount daluren.  Roadrunner 27 June 2003

Why don't we just call the new daughter article Waisheng Ren? Even for some non-English nouns with unambiguous and uncontroversial translations, such as Aozora Bunko, officially, their "translations" is just its Romanization. Latin books, Korean proclamations, many are untranslated despite the ease of doing so. --Menchi 07:02, Jul 31, 2003 (UTC)

I see someone raised this question already. I read from the article saying waishengren are "Chinese by race but born in Taiwan", I find that statement offensive. Even Singaporeans are "Chinese by race". I have changed that statement. --bobby 04:43 6/July/2005 (UTC)

Insertion of garbage into article
1. "Ō·-á --> Ou7-a2" why remove the tones? i though the romanization should have tones, not numbers

2. "called "old taro" (老芋仔 due to the similarity between the shape of Mainland China and the taro leaves) --> Old Ou7-a2 (老芋仔)" why was legitimate information destroyed? if it's inaccurate, state it here

3. " ==Chinese mainlanders (Taiwan)== --> ==Chinese mainlanders in Taiwan== " The Manual of Style suggests that we not wikify headings

4. "Waishengren are descended from the people who followed Chiang Kai-shek to Taiwan" --> "The Taiwanese are descended from the people who followed Chiang Kai-shek to Taiwan" the latter is such a ridiculous claim that I dont really have to explain further

5. "anyone else who sensed that the Communist regime would ultimately be worse" --> "anyone else who correctly sensed that the Communist regime would ultimately be worse" the latter is POV for obvious reasons. please avoid supporting one groups claims over another

6. "Mainlander is used to describe a person, Chinese by race, born and raised in mainland China, thereby avoiding confusion with waishengren. (someone whose ancestors were from the Mainland China, but born in Taiwan, or decended from someone born in Taiwan)." --> "Mainlander is used to describe a person, Chinese by race, born and raised in mainland China, thereby avoiding confusion with Taiwanese (someone who may be Chinese by race, but born in Taiwan, or decended from someone born in Taiwan)." benshengren are never called mainlander. this edit is destroying the text. --~


 * I believe it was GrandCru who revised all of my works back to an originally incorrect version because I corrected his editing on other pages calling KMT communists several days ago. Therefore, it has little to do with your 6 questions, as he didn't even bother to read the content. I think we need to find someway to police this kind of behaviour. Bobbybuilder 04:20, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Canada, eh?
The use of the term mainlander in Newfoundland might not follow the strict geographical definition: are Cape Bretoners mainlanders? what about Labradoreans? The geographical definition may say no, and yes, respectively but the (political) usage of mainlander to mean any Canadian not from the province of Newfoundland and Labrador would reverse these. The construction of the Canso Causeway linking Cape Breton to the rest of Nova Scotia muddies the waters further, turning a former island into a peninsula by basically artificial means.

The term is seemingly not used at all in Montréal, despite Montréal and Laval, Quebec both being islands. The terms North Shore and South Shore are used instead, as at this point both are in Québec and therefore Canadian but are located in opposite directions. The same is not true in the 1000 Islands, also on the St. Lawrence River, where a mainlander as viewed from Wolfe Island, Ontario would almost always be a resident of the north shore - the south shore being in a completely foreign country and therefore normally referred to by the name of that state or country. --carlb 12:46, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Disambiguation
there is a link in here to the hokkien disabiguation page and i can not find it, i corrected one link in my edit, but it still says there is another. if someone could find it and fix it, that would be great. Bigbadbyte 19:21, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Laos
The Laos part could be a bit clearer. Thanks --Dpr 18:13, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Inlanders?
I've never heard that term before. Where's it from?Readin (talk) 23:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hong Kong and Macau. Mainland China is "inland" to them.--pyl (talk) 01:01, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Singaporeans call mainland Chnese "mainlanders"?
Singapore needs to be removed from the first paragraph. It gives a false impression that Singaporeans call the people on mainland China "mainlanders". That's not the case. Singapore is only *sometimes* included in Greater China for economic and financial topics (normally it is not). It is similar to Hong Kong and Macau are only sometimes included in "mainland China". There may be lots of Han Chinese in Singapore, but Singaporeans are not part of the "Zhonghua Minzu". See talk:Zhonghua minzu.--pyl (talk) 01:09, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Benshengren
Are they necessarily those who arrived centuries ago or just before the Japanese colonial era? I ask this, because there are people who have lived there since the 19th Century, but do not fall under the classification of waishengren. The alliance (talk) 17:03, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Most have there for a long time. I'm not sure what the cut-off is considered to be.  What about Chinese who migrated to Taiwan while Taiwan was part of Japan? The statement had said Benshengren (native Taiwanese) were the descendents of those who families had been in Taiwan prior to the mass immigration that came with the KMT.  It seems to me that the more precise of a cut-off date we give, the more important it is to have it well documented. Readin (talk) 17:19, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The current wording implies that benshengren arrived hundreds of years ago. However, I am trying to specify that most arrived prior to the colonial era, because during the colonial era, relatively fewer Chinese migrated to Taiwan. It goes without saying that those who arrived after 1945 would be waishengren. Basically, the current wording leaves out a good portion of benshengren who have not been there since the 1600s. The alliance (talk) 22:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The current wording says:
 * Waisheng ren are people who moved to Taiwan from mainland China after 1945. This group also includes all their descendants born in Taiwan. This is as opposed to the bensheng ren, whose families had emigrated to Taiwan centuries earlier.
 * Do we need to mention the benshengren at all? I'll take it out for now because we choose to leave out information over including information that isn't quite accurate. If we want to put it back in, can we just say
 * This is as opposed to the bensheng ren, whose families were in Taiwan prior to 1945.
 * I suggest leaving out the term "emigrated" because, while technically accurate, it may confuse some people into thinking it excludes the indigenous tribes (mountain people) who migrated to Taiwan thousands of years ago. Readin (talk) 22:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that leaving it out would be better. The alliance (talk) 17:41, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Infobox
I appreciate the effort put forth by User:乾隆帝 to make a nice-looking infobox for the article. I went ahead and removed much of it, though, as the original version of it was far too large, taking up most of the space in the lede and cramming the actual text (which is the most important part of the lede) into a narrow column. It's not necessary to show 30 people in the infobox; just a small sampling is fine (and if you do want to include 20+ people, it can be done in a format that doesn't take up so much space, as is done here). What I did was just arbitrarily remove the last 3 from each row, and I think I also removed one or two rows.

There are some problems with the pictures selected, though. Almost all of them are politicians, which does not give a very varied representation of Mainland Chinese people. The original version, as far as I can tell, had two athletes, two actresses, and a writer; the other 25 people were all political figures. In what is left after I trimmed it, the variety is admittedly even worse. Also, all the people pictured right now are Han (the original version had two Tibetans and one Uyghur), which is somewhat inappropriate given that Han are not the only ethnicity that constitute Mainland Chinese.

Finally, I am somewhat skeptical about even using in an article that is about a group of people that is defined politically/geographically rather than ethnically. r ʨ anaɢ (talk) 22:23, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

表姐 = "female cousin"? 表叔 = "father's male cousin"?
The "Mainlanders in Hong Kong" section of the article identifies 表姐 as a derogatory term for mainlander, and states that 表姐 literally means "female cousin." Does 表姐 really mean "female cousin" in Hong Kong, and is it really a derogatory term? In Taiwan, 表姐 means "elder (than the speaker) female cousin on the mother's side," and it most certainly is not derogatory. I hope someone with expertise in Hong Kong Chinese usage will confirm / correct this.

I also question the veracity of the article's definition for 表叔 as "father's male cousin," since I am only familiar with 表 as referring to the mother's side of the family, not the "father's." But again, I've spent very little time around Hong Kong people, so I can't vouch for their use of the time. Phlar (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Waishengren
I think waishengren deserve their own article, with a link from this article. They're a very distinct and well-defined group of migrants (from '45-'49, from China to Taiwan) who are independent of later Chinese migrants to Taiwan or Chinese migrants to Hong Kong. This is backed up by RS and academic research. The current section also suffers from the issue that it's overly focused on a small number of waishengren elites. The other problem is that waishengren is in contradiction with the lead sentence of this article, which states that mainland Chinese are people who live on mainland China. Well, waishengren don't. DrIdiot (talk) 09:23, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

In fact I would argue that this could be generalized (though I have much less ability to write an article about Hong Kong etc.). This page should be a disambiguation. What unifies these migrants versus other groups of Chinese migrants and other diaspora, e.g. in Indonesia, Malaysia...? DrIdiot (talk) 09:30, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
 * An illustration: the lead defines mainlander as a person living in mainland China. But the entire article is about people who do NOT live in mainland China! DrIdiot (talk) 13:15, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

The current text has a lot of problems. E.g. 原住民 doesn't mean "original resident" -- it just means indigenous people. Also 新住民 refers to new immigrants, not waishengren. 榮民 just means veteran; sure it literally means "honorable people" but it just means veteran -- no need to etymologize everything. The new article will fix all of this. DrIdiot (talk) 12:37, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

list of waishengren
I am blanking this list. It's totally indiscriminate. If one were thorough the list would be massive. Perhaps there should be a separate article for it. I'm copy-pasting it here for anyone who is interested in creating said article. Lien Chan has been sometimes denoted a waishengren, often by his political opponents, although the general perception on Taiwan is that he is not. Although he was born in mainland China and his mother was of mainland ancestry, his father's ancestral home was in Tainan, Taiwan.

(end of paste) DrIdiot (talk) 13:10, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

That said, there are other problems with it. It includes people who only briefly stayed in Taiwan before moving on to the United States. These people, who did not live in Taiwan for very long, are not generally considered waishengren if they never went back. It also includes 3rd generation born in the United States. And it's missing very prominent WSR such as Edward Yang and Hou Hsiao-hsien. DrIdiot (talk) 13:13, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

Proposal: turn this page into a disambiguation
The term "mainlander" can mean different things in different contexts. Turning this page into a disambiguation would essential consist of moving Mainland_Chinese to its own section of Hongkongers. DrIdiot (talk) 09:21, 28 November 2021 (UTC)