Talk:Man-Kzin Wars

Events of the books
I only have a few of the MKW books on hand; hopefully others can add events from the other ones (especially the later ones which I lack, mostly 8 onwards). Kuralyov 03:50, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Canonicity
For some reason, many Niven fans-- and at least one MKW author-- insist on claiming the MKW stories are "canonical" simply because Larry Niven edits the series. Niven did write, in the Introduction to MWK volume IV: "Jim Baen [the series is published by Baen Books] and I have solicited stories which we bought and then rejected because they didn't fit our standards."

This has been misinterpreted by some as meaning Niven rejects stories for being non-canonical, ignoring the fact that he is acting as editor. Editors reject stories because they don't think they're good enough to pay for or publish, or because they're too similar to another story, not because they are or are not "canonical".

In fact, Niven has never addressed the "caononicity" of other authors' MKW stories, other than to say definitely that A Darker Geometry isn't canon. So I'm once gain changing the "Canonicity" section to reflect reality, and hoping this time no one changes it to reflect their personal misinterpretation. --Lensman003 (talk) 13:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

In my latest edit of the Canonicity section-- which was made only to correct extraneous and incorrect added information-- I found this:

In the Ringworld, it is stated that the kzin never suppressed their own aggressiveness enough to conduct war competently, let alone advanced scientific research.

I can absolutely guarantee that nowhere in Ringworld does it state Kzinti couldn't conduct advanced research. In fact, in Ringworld Engineers it appears that Kzinti native to the Ringworld developed their tech, from scratch, up to the level of jet fighters. Regarding their ability to conduct war: It's true that Ringworld points out the Kzinti rather foolishly or stupidly kept attacking the Human worlds despite losing every war, but they had managed to conquer several other races before that, so again this is incorrect. Sentence removed. --Lensman003 (talk) 20:19, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a note - link 2, re the canonicity of 'darker geometry', is broken and points to a web squatter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.136.80.93 (talk) 11:26, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Four Wars, not Six
I quote from Niven's "Canon for the Man-Kzin Wars" (Scatterbrain, paperback edition p. 293):

There were major "incidents" as well as the four wars... "Six times over several centuries, the kzinti attacked the worlds of men..." I forget where that quote comes from [it's from Ringworld], but at least two "incidents" must have been major ones.

We might interpret this as four "official" wars. In "Flatlander" it's stated "...he'd been in the war in Kzin thirty years back...", placing it in 2615, well after the end of the Fourth War (2505). It may be that what Beowulf Shaeffer (who's narrating the story) calls a "war" is officially called a "major incident", in the manner that the Korean War was, at the time, officially termed a "Police Action".

At any rate, we must assume the annexation of Shasht/Fafnir, and the disarming of the Kzinti (restricting them to police weapons only) was part of the Covenants of Shasht ending the Fourth War... not the Sixth. --Lensman003 17:06, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

In Man-Kzin Wars 12 the following is stated...

"How many wars were there with these 'kzinti'?" "Depends who you ask. Flatlanders say six, because they got involved in all of them. Kzinti and Pleasanters say four because there have been that many peace treaties: Kzinti needed some kind of conceptual dividing line to get a handle on the idea of peace, and Pleasanters are almost all descended from lawyers. Old Wunderland vets say one, because there are still kzinti alive, so the war's still running." She spread her hands, momentarily resembling a cottonwood tree. "Take your pick. Next?" "How many do you say?" The look she gave him produced, in him, the exact feeling other people got when they first learned he was a telepath. After a moment she said, "Two. The first began with the invasion of Wunderland, and ended when I arranged for the subordination of the kzinti religion to secular authority. The second was an act of personal retaliation by one man, Harvey Mossbauer, whose family was killed at the end of the first, against the Patriarch; he killed the Patriarch's family in return.

Also... We were screaming and leaping in classic kzinti style. That approach had lost them six wars in a row and eighty–five percent of their empire. I wasn't encouraged by history. --Phospheros (talk) 20:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Brin
Contrary to what it says in "Background", I don't believe David ever got around to writing a MKW story. Can you cite it? Bigmac31 (talk) 19:52, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It's possible Brin wrote a story which was rejected; certainly he hasn't had a story published in any MKW collection. This does need to be reworded, as anyone reading it would assume Brin had a published story.  But I don't know enough to correct the statement.--Lensman003 (talk) 16:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I took another look at what Niven wrote in the "Introductory Material for Man-Kzin Wars II" in Scatterbrain. It does say David Brin was *asked* to write a story, but that's all it says about Brin. I don't think his invitation is relevant to an article on the series, since apparently he never wrote a story, so I edited the article. I also removed references to several other authors who were invited to contribute, but didn't. Since those invitations don't appear to have any impact or influence on the series, I don't think that information is important enough to include in this article. --Lensman003 (talk) 08:37, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Canonicity re: protectors
This is not going in the main section, because it deals with events rather than citable sources. During Ed Larner's collaboration with Larry Niven on the series of books starting with Fleet of Worlds, Larner wanted more detailed information on protectors. Niven referred him to Harrington and gave Larner his email address. The canonicity of protectors being a tnuctip bioweapon may be regarded as highly likely.4.246.3.177 (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If I recall correctly, Niven revealed in a chat that the next Known Space book from Niven & Lerner, following Juggler of Worlds, will concern the fate of the Pak invasion fleet from the latter part of Protector. It is an intriguing idea that the Pak were created as a Tnuctipun bioweapon; that would certainly explain some things.  But it's not very believable that the extremely warlike Pak have not only survived the 1.5 billion years since the end of the Slaver Empire, but have survived without significantly evolving. OTOH we might suggest a population of Pak breeders was put into a large stasis field along with some tree-of-life, and they only popped out of stasis a few million years ago. --Lensman003 (talk) 20:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

In my latest edit of the "Canonicity" section, I found this added by someone else:

...and further, the Pak themselves were genetically engineered by the Tnuctipun, the race that had revolted against the Thrintun ("Slavers") billions of years before.

Since this is in no way incompatible with canon, I have removed this. --Lensman003 (talk) 20:11, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What I've been wanting to see is an explanation of why it took so long for ARM to develop gravity control ('discovering' the possibility after Angel's Pencil's Kzin first contact) when it's quite obvious they would've found the unit Phssthpok dropped on Mars in "Protector". ARM secured everything they figured could be dangerous, and studied it to ensure it could be put into production should the need arise.


 * The "Interlude" section of Protector states that Phssthpok's life pod was examined in situ on Mars, but the antigrav tech remained beyond the understanding of Humans. And as stated in "Madness Has Its Place", antigrav tech was not developed by Humans until after data on the Kzinti warship was sent back from the Angel's Pencil, following the events of "The Warriors". Lensman003 (talk) 17:00, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

N-Space, "Madness has it's Place." The ARM not only suppresses technology, but they occasionally misplace it or lose it entirely as well. Set after the Warriors, but before the first Man Kzin war proper they had to re-invent war from scratch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.83.232 (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Lithobraking
"A number of specialists traveled aboard this ship, using Slaver stasis fields for lithobraking, and successfully" -- a lovely idea. What was that comet sample-return mission that lithobraked a couple of years ago? Unfortunately, this mission didn't lithobrake. Depending on interpretations, they either stellar-braked, or aerobraked using the sun's atmosphere. Just ordered the "A Darker Geometry" book, for a change. Sounds a lot more involved than the short story version.

Aidan Karley (talk) 22:20, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Nessus deliberately reveals information
In Ringworld, Nessus very deliberately, and under orders from the Hindmost, reveals what he does to Louis and Speaker to see if they can cooperate not only with each other but also with Puppeteers because they want to use both species as scouts. Reading just that one book, it could be interpreted as shown in the article, but reading the entire series, Puppeteers (and Larry) dont reveal anything unless its vitally important. Larry says so himself in an essay somewhere in his collections. (Scatterbrain, maybe?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.174.83.232 (talk) 17:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you have a citation for your claim that Nessus deliberately revealed Puppeteer secrets to Louis and Speaker under orders from the Hindmost? Certainly at the beginning of Ringworld Nessus does reveal certain things about the Puppeteers' manipulations, while explaining to his prospective team why they have been chosen. But the big reveal, that Puppeteers intervened in the First Man-Kzin War, and used Humans as pawns to halt the expansion of the Kzinti Empire, appears to have been revealed entirely unintentionally by Nessus, a thoughtless statement much later in the story when he was distracted. Certainly there are fans who assert this was deliberate on Nessus' part, but I seriously doubt that Niven ever stated that. I'm fairly sure that if Niven ever published such a comment, I'd have found it in my researches into Known Space canon. --Lensman003 (talk) 08:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The puppeteers actually use humans for scouts centuries before the events from Ringworld, as detailed in the Fleet of Worlds series....--Roentgenium111 (talk) 18:41, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Not The First
The article claims: "The first story set in the Man-Kzin Wars, The Warriors (1966), was also Niven's first sold story and one of the first of what would become his Known Space series."

erm... nope: his first sold was "The Coldest Place" (1964).

So, reworded to reflect this.

86.25.122.115 (talk) 16:46, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Kzinti in "Star Trek"
I deleted the following paragraph from the "Canonicity" section. This would be appropriate for an article about Kzinti, but has nothing specifically to do with the Man-Kzin Wars series. Furthermore, if it were to be included, it should be in a separate section, perhaps an "In Other Works" section. --24.124.75.76 (talk) 08:32, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * The Kzinti (who has appeared in the Star Trek: The Animated Series episode "The Slaver Weapon", written by Niven) were set to appear in a plot in the fifth season of Star Trek: Enterprise. The episodes were planned out by Manny Coto, Andre Bormanis, Jimmy Diggs, and Neal Hallford, and in preparation, Diggs wrote a "Guide To Using The Kzinti In Star Trek" which was sent to a number of the lead figures of both the Star Trek and the Man-Kzin Wars franchises, including Niven and Jim Baen. According to Diggs, "One of the features I was proudest of was a Star Trek/Man-Kzin Wars Integrated Timeline that seamlessly merged the two universes and answered everyone's most-asked questions. This timeline has Larry Niven's official endorsement." However, Enterprise was canceled after its fourth season, the Kzinti story was never produced, and it is unknown just how the Star Trek and Man-Kzin Wars timelines were integrated.

Gravity drive.
What has yet to be sorted out by Niven or other authors writing in the Known Space universe is what happened to Phssthpok's gravity drive. That would have been picked up by the ARM and examined before Angel's Pencil encountered the Kzinti and their gravity polarizer. The ARM's secret study of Phssthpok's gravity drive would explain how quickly humans were able to "copy" the Kzinti version. Bizzybody (talk) 01:29, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Notability
I am having a hard time proving the notability of this series (which I "know" is popular, sigh... I am a bit of a fan). Can anyone help? Ping User:ReaderofthePack, User:Daranios, User:TompaDompa, User:Jclemens. I don't think this is reliable. There are some other reviews that may or may not discuss this series as a whole and be reliable (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?33884 ...). After one hour, all I got are several mentions in passing, with only a single one that seems to have some form of assessment (listing it as one of the common military science fiction stories or such). I'd hate to have to AfD this, but right now at minimum a notability is warranted. But maybe some of you can find sources to save this? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:22, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've found sourcing, but a lot of it isn't easily available on the internet. It's kind of like pulling teeth, but what I'm finding does point towards there being more sourcing. Looks notable to me. ReaderofthePack (formerly Tokyogirl79)  (｡◕‿◕｡)  12:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping, but the dead-tree references I've got handy don't include Known Space stuff, mostly Babylon 5 and Stargate, with a bit of other TV-show Sci Fi thrown in, sorry. FWIW, I've never read this series, but it's on my "to read someday" list. Jclemens (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2022 (UTC)