Talk:Mark Twain/Archive 3

Family Life
I think that the last paragraph from the "Life as a Writer" section should be deleted and a separate section discussing his marriage and family created. Something should be done with the last paragraph as it does not fit with the rest of the information and is out of chronological order. Any other thoughts? Windmillchaser 05:45, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Twain was born in a two bedroom house in Florida, Monroe. It was a very isolated place that had only two unpaved streets, 21 houses, and only 100 people. His family's nickname for him was Little sam —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.99.86.2 (talk) 19:48, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Life as a writer quote
In this section we have the quote

"This book is a record of a pleasure trip. If it were a record of a solemn scientific expedition it would have about it the gravity, that profundity, and that impressive incomprehensibility which are so proper to works of that kind, and withal so attractive. Yet not withstanding it is only a record of a picnic, it has a purpose, which is, to suggest to the reader how he would be likely to see Europe and the East if he looked at them with his own eyes instead of the eyes of those who traveled in those countries before him. I make small pretense of showing anyone how he ought to look at objects of interest beyond the sea – other books do that, and therefore, even if I were competent to do it, there is no need."

I really don't see what this quote adds to the material and recommend it be deleted. --Ideogram 01:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

GA ON HOLD
I have placed this GA candidate on hold for the following: Also Consider:
 * There is one in the text.
 * A few more inline citations are needed in the middle
 * The cleanup tag near the end of the article needs to be dealt with.
 * GA review (see here for criteria)

Hope to see this a good article soon.--Natl1 (Talk Page) (Contribs) 12:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) It is well written.
 * a (prose): b (structure):  c (MoS):  d (jargon):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (inline citations):  c (reliable):  d (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * a (tagged and captioned): b (lack of images does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

Dislike of Rail?
I'm curious about the statement that he disliked railroads, as I was just reading a sketch of his last night in favor of them, arguing that in bed asleep was a much more dangerous place to be. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.246.144.133 (talk) 04:54, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Samuel Clemens vs. Mark Twain
Wouldn't this article be better under the name "Samuel Clemens" with Mark Twain as a redirect? After all, Mark Twain was only his pen name, and Samuel Clemens his real name. It would make more sense that way. ' Wii  Willie  Wiki  ''(Talk) (Contributions) 15:51, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * See my comment on the talk page of Lewis Carroll where you make a similar comment today about that author. I think the same points apply here (apart from a point about you spelling his real name incorrectly.)  DDStretch    (talk)  17:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we have had this debate before. And, if I recall correctly, the most commonly used name was our choice. Vaoverland 20:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)


 * On a slightly different point, within the article it consistently refers to him as Twain. I've just corrected several random places where it called him Mark Twain, or variants on his real name.  For anyone interested, WP:NAMES is the relevant guideline. Lessthanideal (talk) 20:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

GA Failed
It's been in excess of the 7 day maximum that the GA nomination was put on-hold and issues relating to the original reviewer's comments still exist. Specifically, citations are still needed in the 'Youth' section. Further, the 'Career' section at the end still requires clean-up and maintenance. Also I'd take into consideration the goals set out at the top of this page, specifically "Leads needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD and summarize the whole article --plange 16:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)"

Citations alone fail the article (see WP:WIAGA), though do take into consideration the recommendations given by myself and the other reviewer Natl1. Try again at a later date when all issues are addressed. Cheers. Nja247 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The Mysterious Stranger
There is much misinformation and confusion regarding this novel. The article in its current form says that 44 is Satan. This is untrue. Mark Twain's biographer Albert Bigelow Paine released a false novel under Twain's name called "The Mysterious Stranger". This novel was a compilation of the 3 drafts Twain had written, relying on mostly the first and not final draft. Paine also deleted a large sum of the work, added a character, and changed the ending of the novel. The final draft only was not realeased by itself until 1969 by the Mark Twain Library and is titled "No. 44, the Mysterious Stranger". It is a very different novel than the version starring Satan. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.58.2.25 (talk) 00:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

'The report of my death is an exaggeration'
I've somewhat rewritten this bit to correct the quote itself and some common misconceptions about the circumstances (e.g. no obituary was published). For more details see the Twain entry in List of premature obituaries and the references it cites, which give a full account. Ben Finn 14:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Religious Beliefs
The article says : "Twain was critical of organized religion and certain elements of the Christian religion through most of the end of his life, though he never renounced Presbyterianism[19]" This suggests that he retained a core belief in Christianity/presbyterianism, however on looking at the citation given this opinion is based on an early piece of writing (1866)and its difficult to reconcile later quotations with any such beliefs. Unless a proper citation is given that clearly confirms the suggestion then it should be deleted. 82.40.71.124 19:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought he was being irreverent and sarcastic when he was talking about Presbyterianism and its dogmas, specifically infant damnation. Anyway, I'm not sure if he renounced belief in God (it says here that he was a deist) but he certainly renounced belief in an afterlife. I'm not even sure he renounced belief in the supernatural. He wasn't close-minded about mysticism and supernaturalism, anyway. --Onias 20:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The citation (The Religious Affiliation Mark Twain celebrated American author) does not at all support the statement: "Twain was critical of organized religion and certain elements of the Christian religion through most of the end of his life, though he never renounced Presbyterianism". At most it proves that (1) he grew up Presbytarian and (2) that he was very critical of it. I am going to delete the sentence. --Siener 07:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You should add a cite needed tag instead of deleting the sentence. It is well-known that Mark Twain was very critical of organized religion in his later years.  Read "Letters from the Earth" and you will see it is true.  Someone will find another reference for the sentence.  If you want to delete the part about "though he never renounced Presbyterianism" because it implies hypocrisy, go ahead, but the first part of the sentence is very very true.--Paul 14:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

His funeral was at a Presbyterian church in New York City (the "Old Brick Church"), and he had donated funds to buikd a Presbyterian church in Nevada. http://www.twainquotes.com/19100424a.html http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11072383/  Collect (talk) 01:54, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

About five miles the south of Keokuk on the Missouri side of the Des Moines river was the town of Alexandria. At that time Alexandria was a very lively little berg which hosted a rather rowdy dance every Sunday evening. One Sunday evening one of the women from the Presbyterian Church in Keokuk happened to be visiting a relative in Alexander and while driving by in her buggy observed Mr. Clemens entering the Dance Hall. The attending of a dance was not considered appropriate, but to the upright Presbyterians to attend one on Sunday was the ulitmate sin. The net result was that Samuel Clemens was excomunicated from the Keokuk Ia. Presbyterian Church. It appears that he remained a Presbyterian in heart but obviously the experience had seriously wounded his relationship with the church. [ User: Stanton ] 24 February 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.210.158 (talk) 20:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
 * One possible reason that Samuel Clemens seems to have had a love hate relationship with the Presbyterian Church may have originated from an incident in the Southeastern Iowa town of Keokuk. His brother owned and published a newspaper there sometime during the late 1800's where Samuel was employed.

"Citation needed" in Pen Names section
The reference should be:

THE ADVENTURES OF THOMAS JEFFERSON SNODGRASS Pascal Covici, 1928, Chicago

Would someone who chooses to edit under an account please add this?

Thanks.

"Mark Twain went strait fiction with Joan of Arc"
This is untrue. Joan of Arc is factual, and this should be fixed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.246.99.186 (talk) 01:50, 23 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I've read somewhere -- probably in Albert Bigelow Paine's biography -- that Twain did more research on Joan of Arc than for any of his other books, two years or so studying the transcripts of her trial and other contemporary and near-contemporary evidence. But it's still a novel, not a biography, though a novel based more closely on documented facts than most historical novels. --Jim Henry (talk) 11:09, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Random changes in name
Yeah, okay, I get the "using the most common name as the title" thing. That's cool. But is it too much trouble to use the same name (Twain vs. Clemens) throughout the WHOLE article, instead of randomly flopping about?67.142.130.24 04:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The Great American Novel
The citation for this claim leads to a list made by a random Amazon.com reviewer. That's terrible. There are plenty of credible sites and reviewers out there who have claimed that Huckleberry Finn is the Great American Novel. Use one of them; not this random Amazon.com review. That's totally illegitimate. 72.130.89.63 02:17, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Anonymous
 * I totally agree. I've changed the reference to a page at americaslibrary.gov (a site maintained by the Library of Congress). Adam McMaster 08:24, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Angina pectoris does not cause death
Angina pectoris is the description of a characteristic central chest pain caused by arteriosclerosis or blockage of the coronary arteries.

So the correct cause of death should be "heart infarct" or, simpler, "heart attack" ("...died of a heart attack on April...")

Twain v. the French
Twain's writing contains some notable (and hilarious) digs on the French. Does anyone know what gave him this attitude?

Hortas 11:05, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I have a missing citation: under Youth, where it cites the income for a river pilot as $250, this can be found in "Life on the Mississppi" by Mark Twain, chapter 15. Hwrite 22:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

newpaper article/obituary
I have transcribed an obituary on Wikisource: The San Francisco Call/Mark Twain Called by Death that may be of use for this article. John Vandenberg 06:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed
"Samuel Clemens was color blind, a condition that fueled his witty banter in the social circles of the day." I cut this because it really doesn't make any sense to me at all (are color blindness and wit somehow connected? Did he famously make remarks about color blindness?)  and is unsourced. Dina 20:56, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Protect?
The level of idiocy in recent days has probably reached the protection status. What do you reckon?--Svetovid 18:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

proposed new external link
I would also like to add a link:
 * Nevada Writers Hall of Fame

( Because Mark Twain was inducted into the Nevada Writers Hall of Fame in 1998, based on his journalist career in Virginia City, Nevada, with the Territorial Enterprise newspaper, etc.. We do not attempt to provide a biographical sketch or formal bibliography for him. However, his Webpage provides an automatic search of the University of Nevada, Reno Library's collection for materials by and about him.) - Betty Glass, Special Collections Librarian, Special Collections & Archives Dept., University of Nevada, Reno Libraries —Preceding unsigned comment added by Epona2 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to add a link like: to the External Links:Works section. This links to a list of Twain works that you can download to read on a cell phone. I have read quite a few from this site and got a lot of value out being able to read the PD texts away from the PC.
 * Free to read on a cell phone - Twain works.

The texts are Public Domain in the US, just like Project Gutenberg, they are packaged with the reader and available under a creative commons licence (share if (attribution, non-commercial, no derivative) ). The site is non-commercial without registration, subscription, or advertising. The texts as packaged together with the reader as a java program that runs on cell phones, this is a way for people to access the authors work that adds to the range in the existing external links (hopefully translating to more reading going on).

I checked WP:EL and the link seems appropriate: Filomath 00:55, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What should be linked: '...should link to a site hosting a copy of the work if none of the "Links normally to be avoided" criteria apply.'
 * Links normally to be avoided: it seems only #8 might apply; 'Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content...'. The site lets you download java programs that only run on a J2ME environment, this means most/all current cell phones. So although they are limited to being read on a phone they do add an access method to all the others in the existing External Links, in the same way that LibriVox adds a format but requires an mp3 player.


 * That's some horrible web design, but it seems like a good source to link to.--Svetovid 12:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Reversion of redirect
The page was redirected earlier to Samuel Langhorn Clemens which redirects to Mark Twain etc. I don't see consensus on this talk page for a page move to the alternate title (and in fact, the page was not moved.) I reverted the edit to restore the content of the article (although I apologize, I didn't mean to call it vandalism -- I'm not sure what it was!). --User: (talk) 00:52, 29 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You beat me to it seemingly by milliseconds ;). The whole entry was copied and pasted to Samuel Langhorne Clemens (not the lack of an "e" so the redirect didn't point there - instead it was a weird circular redirect pointing at itself. Even if you were going to move an entry (after gaining a consensus) you wouldn't do it like that. So even if it was just ham-fisted editing it was bordering on vandalism anyway and needed reverting. (Emperor 00:58, 29 August 2007 (UTC))
 * Presumably is said elsewhere, but worth saying here in case, and in any case: By far best known as Mark Twain; other versions of his name must redirect here.

Elmira and Hartford
I removed
 * He sold his stake in the newspaper and moved to Elmira, New York in 1871.

(which is unsourced) based on reliable info that either contradicts it, or makes his Elmira sojourn apparently insignificant trivia. --Jerzy•t 20:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Socialist?
Mark Twain was also a support of socialist ideas and had sympathies with American socialist parties. There is no citation for this reference. If nothing is provided to support this I will delete it.--Kibbled bits 21:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You are likely correct. Twain was opposed to the Spanish American War, and appeared to have misgivings about T. Roosevelt, but was otherwise associated with Republicans, especially his close friend President Grant. Collect (talk) 01:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Massive reversion and unreversion
I have put a lot of work into reorganising this article and adding reference. This was all reverted, and then, with an apology in the edit summary, (mostly or entirely) unreverted. Please ould you explain your intentions or specific objections. BrainyBabe 13:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I would like to apologise for that. It was an accident which should never have happened, due to a couple of scripting errors on my part. I believe that it should all have been restored to before my original reversion, and if there's anything lost there, which there shouldn't be, then I apologise in advance for any time wasted and any inconvenience caused. I don't have any objections to any of the edits - it was a small error in script which led to this.JamesSugronoU 07:07, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In a way I have been surprised not to have had any comments or (principled) objections to some of my quite large decisions, which I would have welcomed, but I wasn't prepared for wholesale deletion of my work, and thought that an avid fan of the great man, without much knowledge of WP, had decided I was too uppity. Apology accepted.  BrainyBabe 22:09, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Progressive
Part of this sentence perplexes me. "Although some aspects of his life were not progressive (for example, he remained neutral during the Civil War and participated in a silver rush in Nevada), as he grew older he grew more radical."

Can anyone give me a convincing explanation as to why participating in a Nevada silver rush would have anything to do with being progressive, or not being progressive? If not, I'll delete it. Marieblasdell 18:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree it doesn't sound quite right, and I am probably the culprit. The sentence previous to my large-scale changes read
 * Although Twain remained neutral during the Civil War and participated in a silver rush in Nevada, later in life he wrote glowingly about unions in the river boating industry in Mississippi in Life on the Mississippi, which was read in union halls decades later
 * which doesn't really hang together either. Suggestions?  Or just go ahead and delete the silver rush reference.   BrainyBabe 19:16, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Political and religious views
I've done some revision on the political and religious views section. I've changed Clemens to Twain, took out the references to socialism and the silver rush, a weasel sentence in the beginning as well as some minor grammatical changes. However, I think this whole section needs a lot overhaul. One thing in particular is that most of the references in the section seem to come a single source, an article in the International Socialist Review. A lot of the different sections need to be expanded anyway but it worries me that so much of this section seems to be drawn from one source. Windmillchaser 15:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just seen this, and if I had spotted it sooner, would have replied here before making my recent change, sorry. Clemens/Twain: as someone else said, consistency is the most important issue; I'll let others argue which name to use.  Silver rush: see above.  Socialism: I think it is justified, eg his speech to the unions, but will not pursue it without further sources.  Helen Keller: I guess  this is what you refered to as a weasel sentence.  I would regard it as historical context; I am not asserting any other link between them, or conspiracy of silence or anything.  Single source: yes, but it is a very academic one, and draws on multiple sources itself, many of which are quoted verbatim, so it's pretty directly back to Twain's words and views.  Hope this answers your points.  Sorry again for not seeing this first.  By the way, another time you may wish to raise the issues on a talk page before deleting --it's not necessary, but some editors prefer to hash out potentially controversial changes behind the scenes, as it were.  Others say, BrainyBabe 22:10, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The name Twain/Clemens debate should be solved, but until then I felt we should go with the name of the article. Certainly, we should avoid calling him Samuel.  The reason I don't think the socialism comment is justified is that being anti-capitalist and pro-union does not automatically make one a socialist.  He might be sympathetic towards socialism based on these comments, but they do not form a clear link between the two ideas.  I understand about the Keller sentence, though something about it still seems off to me.  I'll see if I can't think of a new wording as you're correct in saying it provides some historical context.  I think my problem is the phrase "neutralized by history".  While I don't disagree that his political and social critiques aren't well know, the phrase makes it sound like there was an active attempt to suppress his views. Windmillchaser 03:50, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to work out an agreeable Keller sentence here. My phrase "neutralised by history" was not meant to suggest "neutralised by historians" (an active attempt) but a reflection on the passing of time, along the lines of "forgotten by the twentieth century", "unknown in Des Moines", etc.BrainyBabe 07:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

A Murder, a Mystery, and a Marriage Twain was definitely a capitalist -- he invested fortunes in a typesetting machine which he was convinced would make a fortune. Granted it lost a fortune, but he still made the investment. Collect (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

"Reflections on religion"
Why this book is not mentionned ? It's an interesting book of him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.48.186.156 (talk) 17:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Please be bold and add the information to the list of his works at the end of the article. You would need the full title and date of first publication as a minimum, and preferably the publisher and number of pages. BrainyBabe 06:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Pen name
I read in my school textbook that the name comes from the term, "On the mark, twain." Unfortunately that was about three years ago. If someone can find a cite for this fact, I'm sure it would answer the question, "Why did this guy choose that name?" hbdragon88 22:50, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Someone can easily find a reference ('google "mark twain" depth' finds 3 references in the first 3 hits) - odd that it's not in the article. I recall reading that it referred to one of the boatmen taking soundings (measuring depth), the second mark on the line (twain means two) meant that it was deep enough for smooth running - no obstructions Tedickey 22:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's in there, though well down the page in Sec 7 "Pen Names". And yes, you are correct in the origin. :) Arakunem Talk 20:36, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Small Mistakes
Someone should switch "the right thing to do" to "to do the right thing" in talking about The Adventures of Huck Finn.129.120.244.97 13:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Reference [57] should probably be moved to the page A Murder, a Mystery, and a Marriage Rknasc 19:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Missing Works
Letter from Hawaii —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.150.120 (talk) 15:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Susy details?
Anybody know when Susy was born and died? --Ragemanchoo (talk) 06:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Clemens&GScnty=1985&GRid=10167320& March 19, 1872  in Elmira - August 18, 1896 in Hartford. Twain could not bear the Hartford house afterwards. http://www.twainquotes.com/headstone.html bears a poem which some attributed to Twain. When he found this out, he had the name of the poet, Robert Richardson, whose poem he had adapted, carved into Suzy's headstone. Collect (talk) 02:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Prince and Pauper
I'm no expert on Mark Twain, but it seems very strange under the section "Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn" to say that the Prince and the Pauper was Twain's first attempt at fiction, and blame its poor reception on his inexperience at writing fiction, when it was apparently written 5 years after Tom Sawyer, according to the linked articles.151.204.79.230 (talk) 16:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC) Tony Rothman

Pessimism
In later life, he was deeply pessimistic, as one would be who has seen much of life. A copy of the 1892 edition of The Essays of Arthur Schopenhauer was in his personal library. Are there any indications that Schopenhauer influenced Twain?Lestrade (talk) 01:03, 9 February 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

Career Overview
The inclusion of 1601 as one of only two works quoted in this section seem silly. I can think of dozens of his writings that are more important. I have removed it.