Talk:Mark Twain/Archive 5

Later Life & Death Addition
Note: Heidelberg, where Twain stayed for 3 months during his 2nd visit to europe, is missing completely in this wiki!

Mark Twain arrived in Heidelberg, Germany, May 6th 1878, and stayed for 3 months. His biographer Justin Kaplan writes that Twain knew that Heidelberg derived from "Heidelbeerenberg", english: "Huckleberry Mountain", which may explain his extended stay. Werner Pieper writes that nobody really knows in the latest "Mark Twain's Guide to Heidelberg", "what made Mark Twain stay in Heidelberg for such a long time. Maybe he was prompted by old dreams from the times he was passing Heidelberg, Mississippi, while working on the steamships? Did he plan to stay here or did he and his family just fall in love with this city?". Twain loved to walk the path from his favorite hotel, the Schloss Hotel (no longer in business) to the summit of the Königstuhl mountain, english: "the King's Chair". Twain rented a studio in an Inn on the top of that mountain. The mountain top view south-west into the rhine valley extends for up to 15 to 20 miles on good days. The river Neckar leads into the river Rhine 20km westward, the city of Mannheim is home of that river delta. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.219.67.137 (talk) 01:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Legacy
It should be noted in this section that he, along with with Albert Bigelow Paine, helped start a library in Redding, Connecticut. This library bears his name as well as holds some of Twain's original collection. Here is a link to the library's website (and more specifically, the history of the library):

http://marktwainlibrary.org/whowe/whowe_frm.html

Live4it (talk) 06:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Halley's Comet
It says that Twain's brother, came around the time of Halley's comet in "Early Years". In the "Later Years and Death" section, Clemens is quoted: "I came in with Halley's Comet in 1835." Which one came around Halley's Comet? And why is that so important? hannah.JOY. (talk) 01:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that it is/was ambiguous, so replaced "He" with "Twain". As it read the masculine second person singular pronoun could be read to refer to Twain's brother, as grammar custom would dictate. I'm not sure it is important, but Twain himself saw it as significant.(smjwalsh (talk) 14:27, 6 February 2009 (UTC))

I read somewhere that Twain was born on the day Halley's Comet was visible from the earth in 1835 and again on the day it was visible from the earth in 1910. Is there any truth in this? Or is it a myth? It would have a particular irony as Halley's Comet is sometimes identified with the Star of Bethlehem, and Twain was an atheist! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cedricthecentaur (talk • contribs) 16:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The comet is visible for more than one day. Moreover, Twain was a Presbyterian (albeit one who opposed "organized religion").  Collect (talk) 17:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Twain's Neutrality in the Civil War
Twain personally bore arms during the American Civil War and wrote about it. Isn't this worth mentioning?

128.239.177.124 (talk) 22:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

ender1990@gmail.com


 * The sketch is humorous in nature. No evidence of Twain bearing arms for the South has ever turned up. He also wrote about talking with the ghost of the Cardiff Giant.  Collect (talk) 22:52, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Mark Twain allegedly went to California to escape having to fight in the Civil War, at least that's what I've read in other places.Ladycascadia (talk) 17:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Paul O'Neill a direct descendant?
He claims to be, but it's doubtful. Officially, Clemens only had one grandchild, Nina, and she died childless. So unless he is descended from an unknown, illegitimate child of Clemens', he cannot be a direct descendant. It looks like an unsubstantiated claim by O'Neill himself. I plan to change it accordingly soon unless someone objects. Bigmac31 (talk) 17:44, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You are correct, and I spared you the trouble. DavidOaks (talk) 03:19, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It was added again and I checked it out fairly thoroughly then removed it. If anybody is interested here is Nina's obitiuary]  I'll also change it at Paul O'Neil.  They do have 1 very vague baseball reference there, but it looks like a joke, at at least for literary purposes, an unreliable source.  Smallbones (talk) 17:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)


 * OK that's fine. I didn't see this discussion before. Arnabdas (talk) 18:58, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Publication date of Is Shakespeare Dead?
Twain article says 1907; book article says 1909. Which is correct and can we have a citation? Softlavender (talk) 02:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The listed first edition from HArper was issued in April 1909. Collect (talk) 10:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Mark Twain Is Da Best
Saying point-blank that Mark Twain is the possessor of keen wit and incisive satire seems to me to be a shameless point of view... Even if everyone else thinks it's true, it needs quotation - as far as I'm aware. Livingston C. Rael (talk) 20:24, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Twain's Short Essay "Concerning the Jews"
CONCERNING THE JEWS ... The Essay, by Mark Twain

"If the statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of star dust lost in the blaze of the Milky Way. Properly the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world's list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvellous fight in the world, in all the ages; and has done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it. The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?" 194.90.149.81 (talk) 08:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)HF

I just read the above essay, and it is interesting reading. The passage inserted above, however, does not on its own fairly portray the contents of the essay - in which Mr. Twain argues that anti-semitism is an economic rather than religious-based discrimination. He argues that anti-Semitism pre-dates Christianity, and discusses the anti-semitism that likely resulted from the Joseph-era economic goings-on in Egypt. It might make sense to include a reference or link to this essay in the main article, but I would suggest against including the full quote above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.69.135.65 (talk) 20:45, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

This essay is freely available online if anyone needs a reference. --Javaweb (talk) 03:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)Javaweb

Women's Rights
Twain was a fierce advocate of women's rights in addition to the rights of blacks. His 1901 "Votes for Women" speech is one of the most famous in history. SocialActivismNow (talk) 04:27, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Who is Mark Twain?
Could someone who has access to edit this page (I'm new to wikipedia, and since it's semiprotected, I can't add it myself) please add the book Who Is Mark Twain? to Twain's bibliography?

The book is a collection of 24 previously unpublished pieces by Mark Twain and compiled by the Mark Twain Foundation. Here is the official website for the book: http://theharperstudio.com/authorsandbooks/marktwain/

Thank you!

--Kratlee (talk) 16:52, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Done By the way, please don't use templates as section names. Celestra (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for editing the post and my comment! Also, is it possible to change the publisher from HarperStudios to HarperStudio (without the last s)?

--Kratlee (talk) 18:38, 6 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Your welcome. Sorry about the typo. Cheers, Celestra (talk) 02:18, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

One more book for me to buy ... there are literally thousands of short pieces still unpublished IIRC. Collect (talk) 18:53, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

A link to download 34 fac-similés
Hi. I have made a big archive (splitted in two parts) with some files from Internet Archive. There is more than 30 original editions of Mark Twain's works. I think this could be helpful and interesting for some people, but the article is semi-protected. Of course, all files are in domain public. Thanks to add this link :
 * http://rapidshare.com/users/68U16W

Joseph Prunier (talk) 21:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Terribly disorganized
The biography section is bad, bad, bad. It mentions him paying off his debts just in passing. The enormity of the debts he incurred isn't even hinted at until the third section. I'm going to be merging the bio, finances, and friendship sections within the next few days, so if you have any objections or comments, speak up now. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:05, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Problems with Mysterious Stranger
I mentioned these problems earlier, but as no one responded or changed the article (its semi protected so I can't), I thought I would restate them (they would be easy to remedy):

I think the two mentions of the Mysterious Stranger could be improved by removing the descriptive clauses attached to them. In the first instance--"Of these works, The Mysterious Stranger, which places the presence of Satan, also known as “No. 44,” in various situations where the moral sense of humankind is absent, is perhaps the best known."-- the clauses describing the book are confusing in their vagueness and clumsiness. But more importantly, saying that Satan exists "in various situations where the moral sense of humankind is absent" is not quite true. For one, it leads to reader to believe that this is THE Satan, and not his nephew (or 44 depending on the version, which is a whole other can of worms), and more importantly in the novel it is not the absence of "moral sense" that is the problem, it is the presence. That is, throughout the work, Satan discusses the problematic nature of morality by demonstrating how its presence leads to undesirable consequences. In the Second instance--"The anti-religious The Mysterious Stranger was published in 1916, although there is some scholarly debate as to whether Twain actually wrote the most familiar version of this story"--the claim that scholars debate whether or not Twain wrote the piece, is false, though it is clear what the author meant to say. The debate does not concern whether or not he wrote the material, but how it was edited from the three manuscripts. No one doubts he wrote the material; it is merely a question of the nature of the editing process. This would be a trivial concern, except that as the sentence reads (within the context of the paragraph on his religious views) it implies that the doubt of authorship might counteract the work's anti-religious contents, that such contents are from another source. That is not true; and, moreover, such anti-religious sentiments are consistent with much of his work, especially his later writings.

So, I think those two sentences should be changed. It would not be hard to do; simply remove the descriptive clauses and the sentences work fine. I am not allowed to do so as the page is semi-protected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.98.182.64 (talk) 22:02, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

International Socialist Review
This article is peppered with citations from the fat International Socialist Review. This source is undeniably biased, and has no rights to be included in a unbiased biography. I believe all sentences with references to this source be re-referenced, or if no other source can be found, deleted completely. --Daj12192 (talk) 17:33, 19 July 2

009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you might spend some time pointing out reliable sources which confirm your opinion Tedickey (talk) 18:55, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I can see, most of the things sourced to the ISR are either actually citations of independent biographical books, or unambiguous quotes and summaries of publications in which MT himself has expressed his positions. --91.148.159.4 (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Daj: Mark Twain was a self-proclaimed socialist. Get over it.  (Actually, I was rather surprised that this article did not directly mention this.  Or maybe not surprised, because here on Wikipedia any given "controversial" fact will have any army of nitwits trying to erase that fact from memory.  I find this is especially true of topics centered around the United States.) 174.21.22.202 (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Which explains why he was so big on investments? Seems you have a few problems . Collect (talk) 15:02, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I suppose you are not familiar with a chap called Fred Engels then. Oh, and there is no such thing as an unbiased source. When will right wingers become honest enough to admit that. Never I suppose. For them, bias always seems to only be seen in the thing they are disagreeing with. --211.26.193.92 (talk) 00:01, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. This is a matter of following official Wikipedia policies. Collect (talk) 19:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco.
Snopes.com says this clever comment is incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain.

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/twain.asp

The same page on snopes mentions quite a few other famous quotations falsely attributed to Clemens/Twain

```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.127.233.153 (talk) 04:22, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks like the attribution was greatly exaggerated. It's gone. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:43, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

mark twain was a big insporation to all who bread his books and novals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.185.198.19 (talk) 13:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Love of Science and Technology
This section mentions that he invented a form of steam engine and a bed clamp for infants. Is there a source for this? Gampgamp (talk) 02:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Using my way-back machine, in January 18, 2007, what it said was, "Although Twain made a substantial amount of money through his writing, he squandered much of it through bad investments, mostly through new inventions. These included the bed clamp for infants, a new type of steam engine that he had to sell for scrap, the kaolatype (a machine designed to engrave printing plates), the Paige typesetting machine..." Somewhere along the line, the meaning apparently got mangled. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

This section also mentions (quoting a book available from Amazon.com and referencing it) that "He appeared as himself in The Prince and the Pauper (1905), a two-reel short film that features the "only known celluloid footage of Mark Twain".[29]" Corrections: 1. The year of his being filmed by Thomas Edison (and the year of the film adaptation of "The Prince and the Pauper"), was 1909, not 1905. This is also stated in the reference as being in 1909, but incorrectly stated in the Wikipedia article as being in 1905. 2. The reference in the footnote [29] also states that the footage in the movie is "barely a minute long" which leads to another correction. Perhaps less than a minute of the original footage was used in the film of "The Prince and the Pauper," but Edison shot more than that (about 2-1/2 minutes!).

Source: The Internet Archive Moving Images Archive has an MPEG-1 version of Edison's footage of Mark Twain. Webpage: http://www.archive.org/details/MarkTwainSilentMovie1909 Download directry: http://ia341005.us.archive.org/0/items/MarkTwainSilentMovie1909/ Direct link to MPEG-1 file: http://ia341005.us.archive.org/0/items/MarkTwainSilentMovie1909/MarkTwain1909.mpg

The footage is identified both within the archive and on a title card seen within the film as being from 1909, corroborating the actual text in the [29] footnote reference. Mark Twain seems to be moving unnaturally briskly, and his cigar smoke puffing away too quickly, indicating that the telecine capture was done at sound speed instead of silent speed. The running time of the MPEG file is 1 minute 47 seconds, but if shown at silent speed, that would be approximately 2 minutes and 40 seconds. All of the footage probably wasn't used, because it includes two takes of him walking around his house smoking his cigar (probably take 2 of that shot was used, because he puffs the cigar more). Therefore, there is more known footage of Mark Twain than the "barely a minute" used in the 1909 "Prince and the Pauper" movie. A.M.Linder (talk) 01:07, 16 April 2010 (UTC)


 * So noted and fixed. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:13, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

A comment about his visit with Gustave Eiffel in his office at the top of the Eiffel tower might be interesting here.

tilted
the article is tilted to make twain look like an atheist.

Someone needs to fix this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tarlias (talk • contribs) 18:21, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


 * If you read any of his writings mentioned and linked to (http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainbes.htm), I think you wouldn't be so sure that he wasn't. If he was a theist, then he was a very unorthodox one (a deist, possibly) and certainly not Christian.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 18:44, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The words are Mark Twain's, presented in context, and represent his thinking in his later years, taken from the most reliable sources. Tarlias(or anyone), if you have evidence that anything in any part of the article is untrue or you have reliable stuff to add with great references, please discuss it here. Javaweb (talk) 03:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)Javaweb

Josh Billings
Those interested in literature of this period & type would do good to contribute to the Josh Billings article (being nearly as famous as Twain at the time), it could use much addition. 98.246.62.216 (talk) 04:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarized
It appears that significant portions (maybe all?) of this article are taken directly from the book found here: http://books.google.com/books?id=8qEvQdis5CIC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=&f=false.

The stolen pages have "copyrighted material" printed on the bottom, so... —Preceding unsigned comment added by LewisNiet (talk • contribs) 06:20, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, the pages you are referring to were clearly copied from Wikipedia.  D C E dwards 1966  06:59, 14 November 2009 (UTC)


 * WP plagiarizes WP? Heaven forfend! Collect (talk) 08:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant that the pages from the linked book were copied from Wikipedia.  D C E dwards 1966  16:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

This article lacks some stuff
This article says: "Many of Twain's works have been suppressed at times for various reasons. Adventures of Huckleberry Finn has been repeatedly restricted in American high schools, not least for its frequent use of the word "nigger", which was a common term when the book was written."

I cannot change it because I do not edit many articles on wikipedia but it is ridiculous how little the criticism on Huck Finn is discussed in this article. The censorship of this book is a big deal to many and has been at an argue point since the book was written. To add on to it, that sentence is not even correct. It's not about "nigger" being used at the time when the book was written, it's Twain's use of the 1st person vernacular of WHEN THE SETTING of the book was written that gives reason to his use of the word "nigger."To add on to it there are several other reasons that this book is criticized other then the obvious fact that a 2 year old could point out that the story says "nigger" several times that are never mentioned.

Another problem I had with this article is what a contributor put as a quote from Hemingway. The article reads: "Ernest Hemingway once said of Huckleberry Finn:

"If you read it, you must stop where the Nigger Jim is stolen from the boys. That is the real end. The rest is just cheating."

Ernest Hemingway also said, "All modern American literature comes from one book by Mark Twain called, Adventures of Huckleberry Finn." This clearly shows that Hemingway was a huge fan of Adventures of Huckleberry Finn but when this articles obvious bias towards the criticism put into the book is used only the side of what people say was bad about this novel is shown, unless you count the one sentence at the beginning saying that it "has since been called the Great American Novel." There isn't even any real quote out of the millions of authors and critics that have praised this book in every way and about the great influence that Mark Twain has had with this novel. Hemingway's quote relates to the end of the book in a scene where many critics debate whether or not Huck has lost his moral development. I disagree with Hemingway in that I believe this scene was essential to Twain's satire of romanticism but that is besides the point. I just don't understand why this page decides to focus on the negative aspects people have said about Adventure of Huckleberry Finn when there is so much to attribute to a novel that revolutionized all novels that came after.

Suggestion for changes in the lead
Since the article is locked ("semi-protected"), I'd suggest the following change to the lead to be carried out: "Twain is most noted for his novels The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and its sequel Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, which has since been called the Great American Novel." I think would be better like this because in this way they are listed in chronological order, it mentions the relationship between those novels, and the whole sentence may be easier to read, it is perhaps structurally simpler, the names of the novels would thus be more "tightly coupled", closer to each other. Besides, I have dared change the URL of the citation, as the old one was broken and no longer worked. While it does not contain the explicit statement that it is a "Great American Novel", it strongly suggests so. Also, I believe that the new link merely points to the old article, which has been moved. You may also consider changing the access date as you see fit. Are there any suggestions to the contrary that I may be oblivious of? --95.102.30.78 (talk) 12:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Aphorisms
Mark Twain is also know for his aphorisms. I inserted a couple of them. This is easy to source. Was anything wrong with that?Biophys (talk) 23:03, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Mark Twain's later life
Olivia's death in 1904 and Jean's on December 24, 1909, deepened his gloom. Who's Jean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.24.236.56 (talk) 18:31, 4 April 2010 (UTC)


 * daughter Jean Clemens Tedickey (talk) 18:35, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

How or what did mark twain die of or is that undiscoverd um well im confuesd —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrgforce99 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

What we now call "congestive heart failure." Collect (talk) 19:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Page name Change?
Considering his real name was Samuel Langhorne Clemens, why not make 'Mark Twain' redirect to that page, rather than vice-versa? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.233.227.21 (talk) 19:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "Articles are normally titled using the most common English-language name of the subject of the article." See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions. Markvs88 (talk) 19:30, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from BobbyDeanMartin, 6 July 2010
In the sidebar, Twain's wife's lifespan is wrong. It says 'Olivia Langdon Clemens (1870–1904)'; according to Olivia's wiki page it should be (1845-1904).

Also, I don't understand why I am not considered an "established registered user". I have had an account on Wikipedia for about 10 years...

BobbyDeanMartin (talk) 05:14, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That's the duration of their marriage. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:34, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Spigot  Map  13:02, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

quote
“You cannot depend on your eyes when your imagination is out of focus.”— Mark Twain —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.184.26 (talk) 01:53, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

21st Century Readers of Mark Twain
October 2010 – Project Gutenberg offers free downloads of over 33,000 out-of-copyright books, including the writings of Mark Twain. Project Gutenberg maintains records of the number of downloads daily, weekly, and monthly. Year after year, Mark Twain is among the top five authors being downloaded over 100 years after his death.70.181.223.85 (talk) 20:28, 7 October 2010 (UTC)Marvin A. Hodges http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/


 * Very interesting! Has any story about this appeared in a magazine or newspaper or respected online source? Once the fact is reported on, we can use it. Binksternet (talk) 01:27, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

In the Views section, can someone add this? Gives a great insight into his thinking
Patriotism Twain recorded his strong views about patriotism after seeing two war monuments in December 1897 at Wanganui in New Zealand. In his book Following the equator : a journey around the world, he was highly critical of those who had erected the memorials for their descriptions of some Maori fighters.

Edit request from 162.119.238.161, 15 November 2010
He was born in 1885 .. not 1985! 162.119.238.161 (talk) 18:04, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The search of the article for "1985" shows 1 reference, not claiming his birth was that year. Please give a quote from the article

and what you think it should say at that point. --Javaweb (talk) 19:02, 15 November 2010 (UTC)Javaweb

Mustache award references?
Mark Twain was honored by Movember in the Movember hall of fame for his category 3 mustache - clever and creative. http://movember.org/halloffame.html

The Mark Twain house also held a party which was intertwined completely with mustaches. http://articles.courant.com/2010-07-16/entertainment/hc-fillo-mark-twain-mustache-0716-20100716_1_twain-house-facial-hair-caitlin-thayer

I feel we need to discuss Mark Twain's mustache on the wikipedia page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.123.4.230 (talk) 16:28, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Inaccuracy
The biographical information on Mark Twain says he came west when his brother was named "secretary to" Gov. James W. Nye. That is inaccurate. President Lincoln named Orion Clemens secretary of Nevada Territory. That position is akin to being named Lieutenant Governor of the Territory, and indeed, Orion served long periods as governor when Nye went to California and New York during the Territorial period. The governor had his own "private secretary," who he (the governor) had appointed. Orion was appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. Rstew160 (talk) 16:56, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If there are reliable sources you can cite to support your assertions, please feel free to make the correction in the article.--JayJasper (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Vivisection
Twain wasn't a vegetarian. The cows he ate didn't die under anesthesia-- they died by having their throats cut and being hung upside down. So also the pigs, especially farm pigs (the phrase "squeal like a stuck pig" does have its origin in a real event which was very common). The pain to animals Twain objects to, is not transient pain, or else he would have been a vegetarian for ethical reasons (are we supposed to think that Twain had no idea what happens in slaughter houses, standard and kosher, or on farms?) Rather the pain Twain speaks of is the sort that comes with "classical vivisection," where an animal is slowly dissected alive, without anesthesia (so it is in no sense like surgery). To say that Twain was "opposed to any sort of vivisection" when the word has been changed in meaning by activists, since Twain wrote in 1899, is totally misleading. Twain says why he's opposed. He doesn't say that the gain in knowledge is not justified by the animals deaths, he say it's not justified by the animals' PAIN. That position simply doesn't make sense for a meat-eater like Twain, until the context and connotation of the word Twain used, is examined. S B Harris 20:48, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

--Javaweb (talk) 03:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)Javaweb