Talk:Mark Twain/Archive 7

What's with the vandalism?
Why is this page being vandalized so much?

Audiobooks from LibriVox
Can any of you add in the external links the following link of audiobooks from LibriVox https://catalog.librivox.org/search.php?title=&author=Mark+Twain&action=Search   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.136.166.198 (talk) 19:37, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

Criticism of the Book of Mormon
He criticised the Book of Mormon. Look at Roughing It – Chapter 16, pages 107-115 I think this should be added to the Religios Views section.--84.177.253.191 (talk) 18:52, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. - I think a discussion would be needed here on the talk page, confirming the reference is reliable, and establishing what, if anything, from this source warrants inclusion in the article, so I'll close this until such consensus develops. Begoon &thinsp; talk 01:36, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.84.225.32 (talk) 00:32, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

critic of religon and presbyterians
how can he be both? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.167.49 (talk) 01:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree.  The religious views section needs to be completely worked over.  Mark Twain wrote book after book heavily criticizing religion, especially Christianity. The quote from his autobiography seems to me to be the only valid representation of his views. Wiki.correct.1 (talk) 20:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

He was most likely deist   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.155.84 (talk) 20:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * You would need a good source -- as he attended Presbyterian services, had a funeral in a Presbyterian church, donated money to Presbyterian churches etc.  I am sure there are Presbyterian deists, but we do not have a source for such a claim.  BTW, Presbyterians are one of the "less organised" churches - theologically it is close to congregational in organisation.  No bishops or other hierarchy.  Collect (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, but didn't I give (a) good source(s)? Twain's own writings are abounding with anti-religious sentiment. See, for example, What is Man?, The Mysterious Stranger (whatever the version), and his Autobiography. I think the lattermost especially is a sound source. Wiki.correct.1 (talk) 11:12, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit: Meant to also add his Irreverent Writings on Eden..., etc. Wiki.correct.1 (talk) 11:18, 1 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, several are deeply religious - just uniformly against "organised religion."  Collect (talk) 11:37, 1 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Can you please point me to these "deeply religious" works? And show me how they are against "organised religion" only? I see no evidence for this; in fact, his criticism of "organised religion" far surpasses that of religious practice, as the quote from his autobiography demonstrates. Wiki.correct.1 (talk) 11:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

Mark Twain's investments of $ 300,000 in the Paige Compositor
As indicated in the text Mark Twain has invested $300,000 out of his personal fortune into the development of the Paige Compositor. This amount would translate into a much higher amount in US$ expressed in todays value. The wiki article on Mark Twain, however, sights a much different figure than the article on the Paige Compositor (indicating $ 8,058,462 against $5,820,000 in US$of todays value). This should be corrected (however, I would not be able to provide the correct figure myself at this moment)..
 * All "current value" figures are guesstimates at best - inflation is not uniform across product and service costs.   The purpose of the figures in not "accurate value" but simply to indicate "a lot of money" and thus it is not critical what exact multiplier is used. Collect (talk) 14:20, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Agree. Even if you calculated and presented a present value, it would have to be updated from time to time. Best to leave it at current dollars (at the time of investment) and let present and future readers make the calculation themselves. My $0.02 worth, 2012 current dollars. Ehusman (talk) 20:47, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 13 April 2013
There's a large red "Expression error: Unrecognized punctuation character "{"." in the Huckleberry Finn section at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Twain#Tom_Sawyer_and_Huckleberry_Finn.

My request is to fix the code typo leading to this error.

Thank you!

Key2xanadu (talk) 07:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Done. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:43, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Presbyterian
As Twain mentioned Presbyterianism many times (even calling hmself a "brevet Presbyterian"), dinated to build Presbyterian churches, attended Presbyterian services, and had his funeral at a Presbyterian church, an editor posted "sitation needed" 

Well here is one he specifically asked on a visit to Hannibal late in life to speak at the Presbyterian church. And has:
 * Mr. Clemens, or Mark Twain, for most persons know him by his Mississippi river name, had been the guest of Governor and Mrs. Warfield at the Executive Mansion,1 at Annapolis, and his visit was due to his desire to help Mrs. Warfield buy a new organ for the Presbyterian Church. About 500 persons, who paid $1 each for the privilege, heard the celebrated man of letters, who is about to be granted the bachelor's degree by Oxford University, an extremely rare honor for an American.

Hope this settles it - as the fundraiser for the Presbyterian Church was in 1907. Cheers. (I have visited several of the churches he attended or gave money to, and about forty other places associated with Twain, and trust his words pretty much.)  Collect (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Wiki.correct.1 (talk) 16:48, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but that does not settle it.  He bought an organ for a church?  But he wrote, through most of his life, against religions?  (Including and especially Christianity, it should be noted.)  I just don't see how some small act in a long life invalidates everything else a person has done -- especially since the very act of buying something for a church does not in any way imply that one is a believer or even a member.  (To take a somewhat quaint example, I know elderly people that sometimes attend and regularly donate to a certain church, but also regularly state that they disbelieve what is said there.)  The article as it reads now is kind of incoherent.  There are numerous well-documented statements that Twain made strongly criticizing religion -- but preceded by a non-cited claim that he was a Presbyterian.  This just does not hold up.  What's more, he wrote his autobiography (replete with anti-religious sentiment) at about the same time.

Delayed publication of memoirs
Why were the memoirs kept under wraps for 100 years? What was the controversy? Valetude (talk) 22:38, 7 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Because Clemens so stated in his papers and will.  Easy. Collect (talk) 12:02, 8 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, but why? If anyone has read the memoirs, can they tell us what needed to be kept dark all that time? Valetude (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Only Clemens' express wishes.  "Needed" is not useful here. Collect (talk) 12:10, 9 June 2013 (UTC)



According to the nytimes, “From the first, second, third and fourth editions all sound and sane expressions of opinion must be left out,” Twain instructed them in 1906. “There may be a market for that kind of wares a century from now. There is no hurry. Wait and see.” Reading the autobiography and his other remarks surrounding it strongly suggest that it was  - in part - his opinions concerning Christianity (yes, I know, I keep having to bring this up on this talk page) that prompted this. Wiki.correct.1 (talk) 17:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 July 2013 / new book on Mark Twain Travels
Please insert additional paragraph on Mark Twain's travels, in section "Marriage", right under the sentence: Twain made a second tour of Europe, described in the 1880 book A Tramp Abroad. His tour included a stay in Heidelberg from May 6 until July 23, 1878, and a visit to London. (actually, I would put this into the section "Travels") Here comes new paragraph: In the winter of 1891, Twain and his family undertook a third tour of Europe, starting with a little-known stay in Berlin, Germany, for sixth months. Twain wrote a half dozen stories about Berlin, and he began a novel about Wilhelmine von Preußen, the Margravine of Bayreuth. He also wrote six travel letters from Berlin and other places in Europe. His Berlin writings have only now been published, in the 2013 book: "A Tramp in Berlin. New Mark Twain Stories," by Berlinica Publishing. Twain continued his journey in 1892 to France, Vienna, and Florence, while his daughter Clara Clemens stayed in Berlin to continue her musical education. Source: http://www.berlinica.com/Berlin_Biographies.html http://www.amazon.com/Tramp-Berlin-Mark-Twain-Stories/dp/193590292X

91.61.79.77 (talk) 22:02, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I am uncertain that this would add to any reader's understanding of Clemens, nor is this article to promote sales of a new book.  In fact, I suggest that this edit request is specifically to promote such a book.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. The proposed wording is inappropriately promotional in tone, but I suppose the IP didn't mean it that way. No opinion on whether it's noteworthy for the article. Rivertorch (talk) 15:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 17 August 2013
This is an addition to Mark Twains travels as seen in the Wikipedia entry for Maryborough Victoria Australia

In 1895 Mark Twain visited Maryborough Station in Victoria Australia commenting that it was a railway station with a town attached.

103.6.188.5 (talk) 14:25, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. Twain made that sort of comment a lot. It's unclear to me why this very broad article about the author would benefit from our singling out one stop he made during his travels. Rivertorch (talk) 04:48, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

No living ancestors
I added the (sourced) fact that Twain has no living ancestors, which I consider noteworthy as it's quite unusual for someone who had four children. This same fact is mentioned on Abraham Lincoln's page, so I feel it should not have been reverted as unnoteworthy. Thoughts?--MartinUK (talk) 10:00, 26 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Three thoughts -


 * 1) Ancestors are earlier generations; the parents, grandparents, great-grandparents (and so on back in time) of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain, for example.


 * 1) I think the question of living, direct descendants of Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain is a bit of trivia and should not go in the section on his children (no living descendants after a few generations is not that unusual).  The "last descendant" line in section 1.2 Marriage and children of the Abraham Lincoln article is integrated, not tacked on at the end.  The cite for "last descendant" in Abraham Lincoln is from a biography rather than an "urban ledgend" debunking website article about Shania Twain as a great-grandaughter of Mark Twain).
 * 2) The cite you entered is not well formed; it shows as a web link following the sentence rather than as a footnote number linked to a list at the end of the article: see Wikipedia:How to cite sources and Footnotes. Neonorange (talk) 17:52, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Move information to Samuel Clemens page and redirect Mark Twain there?
Should the information on this page perhaps be moved to the Samuel Langhorne Clemens page, and changed to reflect that this is his true name? Then this page (Mark Twain) can redirect there? Mark Twain is, after all, only an Pseudonym. Fatalicus (talk) 17:57, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * We go by the name the person was most commonly known as - even if it's a pseudonym. For now, Samuel Langhorne Clemens redirects here. I don't think there would be consensus to retitle this page, since Mark Twain is by far the more common name for this author. See WP:COMMONNAME.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 19:12, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Langhorne
With Langhorne as his middle name, was he related to the Langhornes that produced Nancy Astor? Valetude (talk) 19:21, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * None of the online genealogies show even a single "Langhorne" in them.  No reason to doubt the published claims that Clemens' father knew a Langhorne family in Virginia.  Collect (talk) 23:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Personal Finances Paragraph (!) In Introduction ?
This reader cannot see why there is or should be an entire paragraph in the introduction devoted to Mark Twain's personal finances, as if this were one of the the basic aspects of his historical and contemporary importance. There is not one sentence in the introduction to the effect that Twain is (draft text) "popularly viewed as a quintessentially American writer whose humor and opinion is frequently" etc. etc., for which I'm sure there are manifold possibilities for attestation. What importance a dead writer's finances could possibly be attached to the subject by a newcomer to Clemens' life or work would be of zero conceivable importance to that reader or the present writer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.25.13.90 (talk) 00:52, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2014
In the section on Civil Rights, "the abolition slavery" should read "the abolition of slavery."

172.249.115.122 (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2014 (UTC)


 * ✅. Thanks for spotting the typo.--JayJasper (talk) 19:54, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Discussion
There a discussion anent Mark Twain at Talk:List_of_Bohemian_Club_members Collect (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Recent addition of a new section, Miscegenation hoax
The new section recently added, Miscegenation hoax, seems too much on a relatively minor aspect of Twain's work, and is supported by a single source. I'd support drastically cutting the section, if not outright elimination. The excessive detail really doesn't really explicate Twain's political development; failing in that task, what's the purpose? - Neonorange (talk) 01:07, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * A recent article in Salon, mentioned the hoax as a reason for why he had to leave Nevada, and that his lectures allowed him to make amends, that article is cited in the last paragraph of the segment. There was no mention of the hoax in this wiki-article before, nor was there anything easily availible on the net. More citations could be found about his period in Nevada could be provided if necessary.
 * The hoax episode is raised by historians to question if he supported the war or was a copperhead having previously joined the southern military cause but deserted. The question of his own opinion on race at this point in his life is also raised by historians.
 * If its necessary to break the information into its own article that would be fine, but deleting it when it was such an important episode in his life doesn't make sense. I believe the problem is the lack of details and general lack of depth in this article about most of the rest of his life, which causes this segment to stick out. Large and important aspects and periods are given a sentence or two at best, which is odd considering the importance of Twain. Much of the article is mere stubs. Be that as it may, I would have no problem with breaking the new segment out into its own article if it is easier to move that rather than expand the rest of the article.--Wowaconia (talk) 02:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * If you can provide multiple sources to strengthen the overall discussion of the topic, and create an article on the scale of Dreadnought hoax, I think it would be much better. Currently, placing 1/10th of the net volume of the article on one, fairly minor, event, seems excessive and WP:Undue. However, summarizing it in a few sentences (or maybe a paragraph) and then having a main article seems much more reasonable, Sadads (talk) 02:52, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * More resources can be found, but I am rather surprised that its seen as trivial. Not only does this explain that he was run out of Nevada due to people wanting to shoot him in duels, but talks about whether he was against the Civil War and brings up the question if this man who joined the Southern military cause for awhile was against interracial marriage. Should we not address those things, nor give context to the event?--Wowaconia (talk) 14:08, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * When a long section relies on a single source, there is a possibility that the single source is being overly relied upon.  Write the article, and see if it oases muster before inserting a long single source section into this BDP, please.  Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:33, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I would like to +1 this sentiment and explain a little more. Twain has hundreds of reliable biographical and semi-biographical discussions of him, and during his life participated in hundreds if not thousands of events that could be considered "critical" to his identity and experience, depending on your interpretation. Our goal with the main biography article is to highlight the most important ideas and positions, so that a reader has a very basic understanding of the most important pieces of information about his life, and can choose to investigate elsewhere if they like (through the footnotes and wikilinks). By emphasizing one event, we place weight on something that not all interpreters highlight and overwhelm audience members with information they don't need for a <5 minutes survey of Twain's most important exploits (most readers only read the lead and, if we are lucky, the sections they are interested in).  Sadads (talk) 15:07, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Review of information in recent addition
Twain's strong attitudes on race and the need to help blacks was clear -- including his paying to educate several blacks at colleges, and his sympathetic treatment of blacks in his writings and speeches. Collect (talk) 14:35, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Also note on reading the item that Twain opined in the original piece that the rumour might be a hoax -- in a letter to his sister he says he regretted  the printing of the "squib" ("That misfortune was, that that item about the sack of flour slipped into the paper without either my consent or Dan’s")  . It might be due a paragraph in the biography, but not a lengthy single-source essay. Collect (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2014 (UTC)


 * What I will do is get more sources and make a branching article for the information. In the future please honor the ongoing discussion seeking consensus rather than appear to take ownership of a wiki-page and delete whole segments because of your own determinations (this is not a biography of a living person nor was anything defamatory written). I believe the consensus was moving towards having the new segment be moved to a seperate branching article provided more sources were given. That being the case I will not bother to un-delete the information here while I gather the new material, as there are concerns about weight which seem reasonable. In the future it would be helpful if you allowed more than half a day for editors to reach consensus.--Wowaconia (talk) 03:55, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I skimmed a few chapters in the source you cited for your recent contributions. It seems to me that you could broaden the addition to Mark Twain to include Twain's political development from growing up in a slave-holding society (see letter he wrote to his mother from New York City) to an anti-imperialist advocate for civil rights. This could greatly improve section nine, which hardly touches on his pre Reconstruction political development. I think this would be much more worthwhile than a separate article on a minor newspaper article. I'd also be a bit wary of an author (the author of your source) who'd characterize Twain's civil rights stance as an attack on "vestigial racism" in the US circa 1900! (as well as the tone-deaf use of the term "blacks" in the present discussion)
 * I agree with you that your edits should remain in the article until consensus; so I will revert. If you would like, I can help look for sources that discuss Twain's dearly political development.  - Neonorange (talk) 04:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Whether in the end consensus determines that this information should be split into a branching article or remain here more references will be needed so I will do more research and add them. I am fine with either splitting or remaining, I am just against full removal from wikipedia by mass deletion.--Wowaconia (talk) 17:03, 25 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry -- the rule of WP:CONSENSUS here is clear -- do NOT re-add this massive section until after you get a consensus for it.   The bit does not get any substantial weight in scholarly books on Twain.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I have finished gathering more refs and placing the event within the broader framework of his stay in Nevada; see Mark Twain in Nevada, I have added a "further information" link from this article to that one at the point that it speaks of Nevada.--Wowaconia (talk) 23:11, 10 April 2014 (UTC)


 * I placed Angels Camp outside Nevada, where it belongs.  (I have now personally visited on the order of eighty places associated with Twain - and seen the Jumping Frog sidewalk markers, etc. and the "Mark Twain Cabin" which he probably never saw .) The new article seems to indicate that Twain approved of the flour bit being printed -- it should be emended to show that he and his co-writer were shocked to see it was printed.  Also the reliance on a limited number of sources generally suggests that the material should ne edited down a tad there.   If other general sources do not have some details, it is likely that we need not have them all on Wikipedia.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:18, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2014
In "Miscegenation hoax" section, third paragraph:

"from it legitimate course" should be changed to "from its legitimate course"

Mnemne (talk) 01:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Done! - Neonorange (talk) 02:04, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The new Censorship section
The new Censorship section is either too much or too little. If it is to exist, the time frame should be extended to the present, as censorship of Huckleberry Finn, for example, is ongoing. A recent case is the substitution of words in the New South Books 2011 version (http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/09/2007730/dont-censor-mark-twains-n-word.html#storylink=cpy). There've been many attempts to outright ban Huckleberry Finn (though with perhaps motivations unlike those of New South Books). - Neonorange (talk) 15:54, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Extensively covered in the Huck Finn article - two sentences is enough here, as it is clearly more important there than here.  Collect (talk) 16:08, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
 * Then less; I find this phrase, "not so much working librarians, who had been instilled with that American “library spirit” which honored intellectual freedom (within bounds of course).", convoluted and unnecessary. - Neonorange (talk) 17:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Much of the material is, alas, a simply copyright violation which must be removed per policy and law. Collect (talk) 20:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
 * You're right; that last phrase just struck me as a sort of special pleading, but now that I've read more of the source, I see the reason. I also think the 'Censorship' sub-section doesn't fit in the 'Writing' section. Too bad there's not a 'Reception' section (it'd be nice to see a few bits on contemporary reviews, popular reaction, sales, and censorship). - Neonorange (talk) 23:39, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

This section comes across awkwardly. Should be revised. Also the first citation is not standard for Wikipedia. As mentioned above, the "not so much ... of course)" is out of place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.84.46.136 (talk) 17:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Frog location
The text is now:
 * His experiences in the American West inspired Roughing It and provided material for "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County".

The Frog was specifically about a story he heard while in Angels Camp, and was a specific location, not just the "West." There is nothing which would make:
 * His experiences in the West inspired Roughing It and his experiences in Angels Camp, California in Calaveras County provided material for "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County".

Since the lead specifies:
 * In 1865, his humorous story, "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County," was published, based on a story he heard at Angels Hotel in Angels Camp, California, where he had spent some time as a miner.

It would be highly unusual for a lead to be more specific than the body of the biography, indeed. The inclusion of the place, which is not just the "west" in the lead, would seem absolutely proper here.

The concept "  so when was California not part of the American West?) " has nothing to do with the fact that the location is known, and is even mentioned in the lead.   And noting the location in the body is surely called for if the location is important enough for the lead.   Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:54, 11 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Are you attempting to bring logic or commonsense to bear? That's so crazy we just have to try it. Capitalismojo (talk) 00:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact is -- the lead has the Angels Camp material, but the body of the article does not mention it  which means we have a most unusual lead, indeed. Collect (talk) 13:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 April 2014
Is it possible to add the following link to the 'other' section of 'external links' section of the page please? It is a link to a blog page which will disseminate research and articles on the Congo reform movement, which Twain was heavily involved in for a time during the early 1900s.

The site address/requested link is - Congo Free State and the movement for Congo reform http://congofreestate.wordpress.com/

Thanks.

Deanbean7 (talk) 09:03, 16 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Links to wordpress blogs are iffy at best.   Links to one which is not in a stable and completed state is not going to happen. Collect (talk) 12:53, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2014
50.155.19.14 (talk) 20:59, 20 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Empty request, alas. Collect (talk) 21:10, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Interesting quote
"There were two 'Reigns of Terror', if we could but remember and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passions, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon a thousand persons, the other upon a hundred million; but our shudders are all for the "horrors of the... momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty and heartbreak? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief terror that we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror - that unspeakable bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves." http://newint.org/easier-english/terror/twain.html Dudanotak (talk) 23:45, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected Edit request on 17 September 2014
The first video in the article has closed captions that are trying to be funny in the "MTV Cribs" style. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.120.159.196 (talk) 00:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Resolved.  INeverCry   03:17, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected Edit request on 25 October 2014
In the section "Anti-Imperialist" Twains quote from the New York Herald is dated Oct 15. Hoffman and other literary scholars have wrongly chosen this date. His quote appeared in the New York Herald on Oct 16. My guess is that they all misread  because he mentions that the interview was on Oct 15, but doesn't give a publishing date of the newspaper. To verify the date: 


 * ✅ Have changed the date, adding the pdf to References, plus a bit of copy-editing. Dhtwiki (talk) 11:03, 25 October 2014 (UTC)