Talk:Martin Theodore Orne

Pronunciation
Any chance anyone knows how to pronounce Orne so I don't have have to risk embarrassing myself in conversation when discussing the origins of basic experimental methods? — Harry (talk ) 23:49, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This video has it as basically a silent E, rhyming with "horn", but I can't verify that myself. If we could find out from a reliable source, it would be good to add a pronunciation to the entry. EricEnfermero (Talk) 23:59, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I was about to say “we could easily cite that video, nothing wrong with that!” but after watching a bit of it, I'm not so sure of its credibility haha. I actually suspect that given his Austrian birth, it's more likely that the E is pronounced; something like rhyming with Lorna. I'll have a look later to see if there's a credible source anywhere. Otherwise there might be some reference to that name in Austrian somewhere that'll do for now. — Harry (talk ) 00:49, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

External link
I removed a link to the following obituary per WP:ELNO#1, but leave it here for potential article development. --Animalparty! (talk) 02:43, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

CIA funding section and WP:DUE
There has been a section named CIA funding which has been in and out of this article since this version back in 2016, the content and the sources cited in support have varied. I'm no expert in the article topic or in the content presented in this section, but I stumbled into this a few edits ago and, because of that, I am following it up this far.

What caught my attention was noticing the removal of the section and its contents, including supporting cites, with an edit summary saying "Removed incorrect section". That immediately brought thoughts of WP:DUE to mind. I restored the section with some minor edits, and I now see it removed again here with an edit summary saying "Removed inaccurate information from flawed source. [further]". The source may be flawed, I don't know, but the further info given in the edit summary there seems to me to be WP:OR. For what it is worth, I did a bit of googling and found this article by the author of the criticized source which appears to contest the point of criticism re Orne and a top secret clearance. Again, I'm not familiar with the details of all of this but I am concerned about WP:OR and that WP:DUE was not considered here.

The additional information added here after the section removal may or may not balance that removal; I don't know enough abut the details to make a judgement. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 00:16, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Response to questions about CIA Funding section Removal:

I made the changes requested for review by Wtmitchell. This is my first attempt at Wikipedia editing so I may fail slightly with the etiquette and jargon - but I will gladly discuss and defend my edits if anyone has questions. The previous version relied on what author Colin Ross claims is the content of Subproject 84 documents - specifically Ross' book says the memorandum dated 27 July 1960 gave Orne "TOP SECRET clearance". This is Ross' characterization of what the document says. What the document actually states is "[Redacted]is presently unwitting of Sponsor, but it is contemplated that he will be made witting in September". That same document also states "No special direction will be given to [Redacted] research." I can email that memorandum to admins for verification and upload - or it can be obtained by anyone via a government FOIA request. If instead we are to rely upon what Ross's book claims is contained in the documents then we would also need to change the date of Dr. Orne's 1966 letter to 1996 as Ross' book misstates.

The full text of Orne's paper "Can a hypnotized subject be compelled to carry out otherwise unacceptable behavior?" can be found here: https://www.sas.upenn.edu/psych/history/orne/ under first author articles. This work is also mentioned in Ross' book but with an insinuation that it is somehow unscrupulous.

I thought it better to rely upon the actual contents of the paper(s) rather than on spin. LJ Matadora (talk) 14:41, 1 June 2019 (UTC)