Talk:Mass murders in Tykocin

Pogrom or massacre ?

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The result was no consensus. Vassyana (talk) 08:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The article informs about a Nazi massacre of 1400-1500 Jews so the title should be rather Tykocin massacre.Xx236 (talk) 13:57, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Not really. The massacre in the Łopuchowski forest was the culmination of the tree day long pogrom. --Lysytalk 19:27, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

In another words furniture is more important than human lives. Xx236 (talk) 07:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Sadly, it seems so. The Poles wanted their belonging so much that they could not even wait for Germans to kill the Jews. They treated them as dead already. Polish police would make sure that Jews get no food in Tykocin. --Lysytalk 07:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Polish police? Emotions aren't tools to write a non-POV article.Xx236 (talk) 08:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. :-) --Lysytalk 09:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It's not a subject for jokes.Xx236 (talk) 10:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * What is your problem then, specifically ? So far, I agree with you that "Emotions aren't tools to write a non-POV article" and "It's not a subject for jokes." --Lysytalk 11:15, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

You have written :-). Xx236 (talk) 12:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I smiled at you. Smile is a common sign used to indicate that one has no evil intentions towards someone else. --Lysytalk 17:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

The new source doesn't confirm the pogrom story. The mentioned Polish police is apparently a self-made militia, not a Polish state police nor the Blue police.Xx236 (talk) 15:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You may be right. Still, Encyclopaedia Judaica mentions Polish police, too. check e.g. this link --Lysytalk 17:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

It was outside GG so there was no Blue Police there. According to many sources it was the auxillary police ie. Hilfspolizei, not formally organised yet, and local civilians. The Hilfspolizei was German organisation, even if ethnically Polish, Belarus or Lithuanian. So eventually German-Polish police, but Polish police means a police organised by the Polish government and the London government certainly didn't organise the Hilfspolize. Xx236 (talk) 09:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It might be a militia organized by Germans from Poles. In that sense it was "Polish". Blue Police was obviously wrong and I have already corrected that. --Lysytalk 09:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

So the meaning of Polish should be explained to the reader from Korea or Mali, who doeasn't know anything about history of Central Europe.Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. In fact this article is badly missing scholarly sources. Has there been no historical research or book on Tykocin pogrom written yet ? --Lysytalk 10:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Wokół Jedwabnego ? Xx236 (talk) 10:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Doubtful title, doubtful text
The basic text is available in Polish. It's written by a Jew, so rather doesn't whitewash the Poles.

The pogrom took place days before the massacre, local peasants robbed Jewish homes. Later Germans organized the execution. The current title misinforms. The Holocaust wasn't a series of pogroms, but a planned extermination. Xx236 (talk) 08:18, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

?
"and executed by a militia organized by Germans from local Poles the next day." [4]

[4] Encyclopaedia Judaica

Where is any note to that? Page from the Encyclopedia? Anything? --DumnyPolak (talk) 03:18, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

It was a German organized massacre
The name "pogrom" misinforms.Xx236 (talk) 13:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewsandPoles/message/111 Xx236 (talk) 14:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

The title should be Tykocin massacre
According to Encyclopaedia Judaica http://ddickerson.igc.org/tykocin.html pogrom (looting) and massacre were separate events. The massacre was obviously more important than the looting.Xx236 (talk) 11:01, 4 November 2009 (UTC) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JewsandPoles/message/111 Xx236 (talk) 11:13, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 28 November 2017

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The result of the move request was: not moved. No support nor prospect of consensus to move. Andrewa (talk) 11:13, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Tykocin pogrom → Tykocin massacre? – The massacre was more important than the pogrom (looting). Xx236 (talk) 08:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Pogrom means more than just looting, it can also include massacre - in fact usually it means massacre, not looting. Polish Wikipedia also uses the word pogrom. I don't see any need to change the article's name. It is clear as it is. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:00, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Pogrom means pogrom and mass execution by Germans is a mass execution by Germans. Was Babi Yar a site of a pogrom? No - it was a site of massacres. There is a Category Holocaust massacres and pogroms. Why not Holocaust pogroms? From Pogrom During World War II, Nazi German death squads encouraged local populations in German-occupied Europe to commit pogroms against Jews. A large number of pogroms occurred during the Holocaust at the hands of non-Germans.
 * Even if I accept your logic, so there were two pogroms, not one. Two apples are apples, not an apple.Xx236 (talk) 11:18, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Which source says Tykocin pogrom? Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Some commentators prefer to speak about all anti-Jewish actions as pogroms even if no-one dies, or if just one Jewish person died by chance or by accident, see the 2015 Dutch incident discussion or the Kraków pogrom. Pogrom is a content word, similar to antisemitism. The term antisemitism can be used equally to explain the annihilation of Jews in the Holocaust, as well as ulterior motives of North American teenagers who spray-paint swastikas on walls. In essence, the pogrom doesn't mean anything specific nowadays. That's why it should stay. Historians confirm that the peasants were looting Jewish property (without hearsay exaggerations), and that's enough of a reason to keep it. However, If no-one dies, it should always be stated for the reader that the looting occurred. Grabbing things involved many millions of people those days everywhere in Europe, see the Hungarian Gold Train for example. On the other hand, shooting actions usually don't have articles in English Wikipedia, see hundreds of locations provided in the Einsatzgruppen reports.  Poeticbent  talk 18:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Tykocin massacre (pogrom)

 * It's the only sourced name from a description of pictures. It seems you use an unsourced name.Xx236 (talk) 13:22, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * https://www.jewishbialystok.pl/Remembering_the_Tykocin_Jews,_the_76th_massacre_anniversary_,5407,3198 - massacre.Xx236 (talk) 13:24, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * An academic book by Polonsky and Michlic The Neighbors Respond: The Controversy over the Jedwabne Massacre in Poland.Xx236 (talk) 13:26, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Antisemitism and pogroms are native to mostly Eastern Europe. It's true the words aren't precisely defined, which makes them effective tools of propaganda. Xx236 (talk) 13:31, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
 * One pogrom, but two pogroms.Xx236 (talk) 13:35, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

up to 1.5 million ethnic Poles to Siberia
Controversial statement. Probably less than 1.5 million, Many of them to Kasakhstan, which isn't Siberia.Xx236 (talk) 12:52, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Pogrom or massacre?
The time is running, noone is interested.Xx236 (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't have a really strong concrete opinion on the title - though it might split - e.g. the events in June may be properly described as pogrom, and the mass shooting by the Germans (with local assistance) as a massacre. The Polish wiki rolls with pogrom (though it looks like a straight up translation of the English wiki). The Hebrew wiki uses "Destruction of the Tykocin Jewish community" which may also be accurate.Icewhiz (talk) 12:52, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Kapica or Kapice?
Polish sources use Kapica. It's a Polish and Russian last name, Russian quoted here as Kapitsa.Xx236 (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Kapice follows the cited source. Agree it seems Kapica can be verified from Polish language source (perhaps we could add one to the article?). Spelling of names that originated in Yiddish/Polish/Russian (usually multiple variants originally) through transliterations/adaptations to English (at times via Hebrew) is generally a mess.Icewhiz (talk) 11:22, 20 November 2018 (UTC)