Talk:Max von Sydow/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

Mr Price, are you aware that all text you submit here is placed under the GNU FDL? It is quite alwright if you want to retract your text, but if it reamins here, it will loose any author credits, and will be mercilessly edited by anyone who see fit to do so. In any case, a very good article indeed, and I hope that you stick around and submit more excellent stuff :-) --Ato — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.119.51.34 (talk) 08:37, 27 August 2002 (UTC)

Untitled

So is this submitted by the author? I got to the bottom and saw the site it came from and though "how bold to cite where you plagiarise from." If it's the author's own work he submitted, then we can use it. If not, we can't. At any rate, I'm pasting the material below so it's not lost. Please speak up if this is not a copyright violation; I'd like to keep the article.  :-) --KQ 14:51 Sep 11, 2002 (UTC)

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Carl Adolf von Sydow was born on April 10 1929 to a middle class family in Lund, southern Sweden. His father, Carl Wilhelm, was a professor of comparative folklore at the nearby University of Lund: his mother, Maria, was a school teacher. He had at least one brother who died during the filming of Max?s most controversial film The Exorcist. Little material is available on von Sydow?s childhood except that he seems to have been a shy, quiet child. He attended the Cathedral School of Lund but despite being taught English from the age of nine, Max initially professed little interest in working outside Sweden.

In their late teens, Max and some friends founded an amateur theatre company and this is where he started his acting career. He completed National Service before going on to study at The Royal Dramatic Theatre ('Dramaten') in Stockholm where he trained between 1948 and 1951 with the likes of Lars Ekborg, Margaretha Krook and Ingrid Thulin. During his time at Dramaten, he made his screen debut in Alf Sjöberg?s 1949 film Bara en Mor and his second film, the Swedish classic Lady Julie (after August Strindberg, also directed by Sjoberg.

It was when Max moved to Malmö in 1955 that he met his great mentor Ingmar Bergman with whom he worked first on stage (at Malmö Municipal Theatre) and later on films such as The Seventh Seal, Wild Strawberries and The Virgin Spring to name a few. It was here Von Sydow perfected his craft and began to display the great talent that has spanned the 53 years of his screen career. Von Sydow now dominated the screen as he had done on stage and in doing so became an idol of the international Arthouse. Recognition came as early as 1954 when he was awarded the prestigious Royal Foundation Culture Award.

Von Sydow married in 1951 to actress Kerstin Olin with whom he had two sons, Claes and Henrik. They were to star with their father in the 1966 film Hawaii playing his son at different ages. Max was divorced in 1996 but got remarried to French filmmaker Catherine Brelet in April 1997 in Provence, France.

Max worked profusely on stage and screen in Scandinavia and resisted increasing calls from America to come to Hollywood. After being seen in Bergman?s Oscar-winning films and having been first choice for the title role of Dr. No, Max finally set foot in America after agreeing to star in the film which was to lead to much greater recognition ? the role of Christ in George Steven?s modestly titled, all-star 1965 epic The Greatest Story Ever Told. His talents were soon in demand in other American productions and so Max and his family moved to Los Angeles.

From 1965 von Sydow became a regular on the American screen while also maintaining a presence in his native Sweden. Though perhaps type-cast as a villain, he was rewarded stateside with two Golden Globe nominations for Hawaii (1966) and The Exorcist (1973).

In the mid 70s, von Sydow moved to Rome and appeared in a number of Italian films, becoming friendly with another screen legend, Marcello Mastrioanni.

Max?s career is too long to go into detail here and while he has given dozens of award-worthy performances he has had some ?keynote? films for which he has received recognition. He won the Pasinetti Award at the Venice Film Festival for The Flight of the Eagle (1982) but this was to be his only major movie award until what one might describe as the ?renaissance? of his career.

In 1987 Max celebrated his success in Pelle the Conqueror (after Andersen Nexø). He received his first Oscar nomination as well as winning the Bodil Prize, The Felix European Film Award, The Robert Award and the Guldbagge Award from his native Sweden (amazingly, the first time he was even nominated for the award). He also recieved special mention when 'Pelle' garnered the Palme d?Or at the Cannes Film Festival.

Since then Max has won The Australian Film Institute Best Actor Award for his title role in Father (1990), the Guldbagge Best Best Director Award for his only directorial foray Katinka (1989), based on a favourite novel by Herman Bang, and the Best Actor Award at The Tokyo International Film Festival in 1992 for The Silent Touch.

It wasn't long before von Sydow had another Scandanavian success. He received international acclaim for his performance as the Nobel Prize-winning novelist Knut Hamsun in Jan Troell's biopic Hamsun. He received his third Swedish Guldbagge and his second Danish Bodil for his depiction of a character often described as his King Lear. In 1998 Max starred in Liv Ullmann?s Private Confessions.

Since then he has taken ?a bit of a sabbatical? ? his most recent triumph being his performance as an elderly lawyer in Scott Hick?s Snow Falling on Cedars, released in the US at the end of 1999. Pre-Oscar talk had him tipped to scoop the Best Supporting Actor Award, which sadly never came to fruition. In 2002 Max had one of his largest commercial sucesses, co-starring with Tom Cruise in Steven Speilberg's widely acclaimed sci-fi thriller Minority Report.

Max currently lives with his wife in Paris, where he enjoys reading, listening to music and gardening. He has personally stated he does not intend to retire, subject to the film roles he receives.

Campbell Price 2002

Visit my Max von Sydow Shrine - www.maxvonsydow.da.ru

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It appears to be submitted by the author. See User talk:Campbell — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stephen Gilbert (talk) 21:47, 15 December 2002 (UTC)

Is there any reason, then, why this excellent article is not put back where it belongs, in the main section. - Egil 22:54, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article seems very messy and needs editing. Case in point: "Von Sydow's career is too long to go into detail here." This is an encyclopedia, it should be there, and this is very amateur language. ----- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Donbas (talk) 09:17, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

a list of the films

This article seems sill to big mess, but it is improving. I am going to add a "film-list" at the end of this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Flamarande (talk) 15:19, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Ming?

OK; I'll admit that Flash Gordon is a (VERY) guilty pleasure of mine, but wouldn't it be more appropriate to use one of his images from The Seventh Seal or The Exorcist or one of his more recent films? That picture really doesn't show what he looks like. Serendipodous 12:17, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Much better image now! DevanJedi 00:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Fakelore

"He is known to have had at least one brother who allegedly died during the filming of The Exorcist."

The [The Exorcist|Film's Page] disputes that anybody died on the set, much less a brother. This probably needs to be edited right out. --Edwin Herdman 06:40, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright, updated from this here: http://www.geocities.com/campbellprice/MaxBiography.html Sorry that the edit isn't in the best form. I'm waiting to see what the reaction is before moving further. --Edwin Herdman 03:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a pice of nonsense. Max has no brother! Remove it. Coolaid4u 00:02, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Did that a while ago, but if you could look over what it says now I'd appreciate it. I left in the bit about the persistent Exorcist rumors to refer to those specifically, but they probably should be replaced by the information that he was an only child, and nothing else. If anybody wants us to keep it, please speak up! I don't see the use of it though. --Edwin Herdman 22:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:7sealpost.jpg

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BetacommandBot 08:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Best known?

In theory, I have no problem with saying in the lead that a given actor is best known for a particular role, or even a couple of roles or three. That is, provided that they are actually best known for the films listed. I'm just not sure that the claim made in the current version, that he is best known for these three roles:

• Frederick in Hannah and Her Sisters
• the medieval knight in The Seventh Seal
• Father Merrin in The Exorcist

is correct. Frankly, my first thought of von Sydow is the Seventh Seal. But I think of him almost as much from Three Days of the Condor (despite the small size of the role). And I could go on. The point is, not that I am correct, but that von Sydow defies this type of association. So, until we get an expert saying otherwise, I am going to remove this from the lead. Unschool 05:20, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Three Days of the Condor is his most memorable role for me also, other than Seventh Seal. And Three Days is the only role which actually won him an award, though he's been nominated for many. SBHarris 05:43, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts (and subsequent edit). Good to know that someone else liked his avuncular assassin! Unschool 06:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Death

Death notice inserted, yet this cannot be corroborated with any external source. Reverting to an earlier version until I can confirm facts here. Clawsofdoom (talk) 20:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Duplicate bio added recently

Recently the following "duplicate bio" was simply shoe-horned into the career section. I don't know where it is from. If it's from copyrighted work, it's a copyright violation. If it was originally written for WP, it's excellent writing, but needs integration with what we already have, not simply appending to it (where it ends up repeating the man's career twice).

I have put the section below: see what you can do with it.

Born on April 10, 1929 in Lund, Sweden, von Sydow was raised by his father, Carl, a professor of Scandinavian and Irish folklore at the Royal University, and his mother, Greta, a school teacher. With no theatre in the area, von Sydow absorbed novels in his youth. But when he was 14, a modern theatre was built in nearby Malmo. The young lad was immediately taken by its magic, leading to him and his friends forming their own company where they performed all the classics. Though his parents wanted him to study law, von Sydow went ahead with acting when he attended the Royal Dramatic Theatre – or as it was known in Sweden, Dramaten – where he studied the craft from 1948-1951. After graduating, he began honing his skills in repertory theatre all around Sweden in a variety of roles. Along the way, he made the acquaintance of someone who would later propel him to stardom – director Ingmar Bergman, who was the chief director of the municipal theater in Malmo. Bergman directed von Sydow in numerous productions, including “Cat on a Hot Tin Roof” and “Faust.”

While von Sydow had already been in several features, including “Fröken Julie” (1950) and “Ingen Mans Kvinna” (1953), he attracted international attention in Bergman’s existential drama "The Seventh Seal" (1957), playing a 14th century knight who challenges Death (Bengt Ekerot) to a game of chess in exchange for his life, which leads to an examination of whether or not God exists. The cornerstone of Bergman’s repertory group of performers, von Sydow went on to make numerous films with the director. He had a small role in “Wild Strawberries” (1957), which he followed by playing the title character in “The Magician” (1958). Von Sydow was the mysterious Mr. Volger, a traveling magician whose supernatural performance attract the unwanted attentions of a town’s local authorities, leading to a surreal encounter that confronts the enigma of life and death itself. He continued working exclusively with Bergman, appearing in "Brink of Life" (1958) and starring in "The Virgin Spring" (1960), a drama in which he played a distraught father who avenges the murder of his daughter (Birgitta Pettersson) at the hands of three goatherds.

Following two more films with Bergman – "Through a Glass Darkly" (1961) and "Winter Light" (1963) – von Sydow made his debut in the United States playing Jesus in George Stevens' "The Greatest Story Ever Told" (1965). Though it fared poorly at the box office, the film opened the door for von Sydow to perform in more American films. Seizing upon his long, somber face and imposing physicality, Hollywood initially typecast him in stern and unsympathetic roles, casting him as a knuckle-cracking Nazi in "The Quiller Memorandum" (1966), a stiff-necked minister in "Hawaii" (1966) and a Russian strongman in "The Kremlin Letter" (1970) – none of which set the box office aflame. Returning to working in his native Sweden, he forged another lasting association when he teamed up with director Jan Troell in "Here Is Your Life" (1966) and made his American television debut as Otto Frank in an adaptation of “The Diary of Anne Frank” (1967). He next rejoined his collaboration with Bergman for another memorable series of films, including "Hour of the Wolf" (1968), the director’s only gothic horror film in which von Sydow played a painter who is haunted by demons while spending a summer in seclusion with his pregnant wife (Liv Ullmann).

The trio of von Sydow, Ullmann and Bergman reunited for “Shame” (1968), a compelling drama about two musicians who escape to an island from their unnamed country which is embroiled in civil war, only to run into trouble when a plane of soldiers crashes on the island, leading to betrayal and misery. After “Made in Sweden” (1969), von Sydow joined forces with Ullmann and Bergman once again for "The Passion of Anna" (1970), playing a reclusive ex-convict who has a stormy affair with a woman grieving over the deaths of her husband and son. In "The Touch" (1971), he was a seemingly happy husband whose wife (Bibi Andersson) has a clandestine affair with a mysterious intruder (Elliott Gould), while next starring again opposite Ullmann in Jan Troell’s "The Emigrants" (1971), a historical drama that depicted a Swedish family emigrating to Minnesota in the 19th century in search of more fertile soil. The film’s sequel, "The New Land" (1972), picked up where its predecessor left off and focused on the family losing all they had gained in the New World.

Von Sydow finally earned his due in America when he used his imposing presence to his advantage in William Friedkin's "The Exorcist" (1973), playing the immortal Father Merrin, who is brought in by another priest (Jason Miller) to exorcise the Devil from a little girl (Linda Blair). Von Sydow delivered an iconic performance that transcended generations and lived on in cinematic history, thanks to his famous line “The power of Christ compels you” as he tried to drive the devil out of the child. With his newfound recognition, von Sydow began landing Hollywood roles with greater frequency, while remaining wedded to the films of his native land. He played Alsatian hit-man Joubert in Sydney Pollack's "Three Days of the Condor" (1975), appeared in the preposterous sequel "Exorcist II: The Heretic" (1977), even though his character was killed in the first installment, and playfully chewed the scenery as Ming the Merciless in "Flash Gordon" (1980), even though the film itself was long remembered for being campy to a fault. In “Victory” (1981), he was the commander of a German prisoner of war camp who puts together a team of Allied soldiers (Sylvester Stallone, Michael Caine and Pelé) to play an exhibition game against the Nazis without realizing the prisoners are planning their escape.

Finding more work within the American studio system, von Sydow had numerous co-starring roles, including as King Osrik in "Conan the Barbarian" (1982) and as the arch-villain Blofeld in Sean Connery’s return to the James Bond franchise, "Never Say Never Again" (1983). That same year, he played an evil owner of Elsinore Brewery who plots to take over the world by controlling beer drinkers with a secret additive, only to run into problems courtesy of hosers Bob and Doug McKenzie (Rick Moranis and Dave Thomas). After giving some heft to the otherwise flimsy psychological thriller “Dreamscape” (1984), von Sydow made a few appearances on the small screen, playing the Philistine governor in “Samson and Delilah” (ABC, 1984) and King John of Portugal in the two-part miniseries “Christopher Columbus” (CBS, 1985). Following a turn as the Apostle Peter in the Italian-made “Quo Vadis" (1985), he delivered a stellar supporting turn as Barbara Hershey's artist-lover in Woody Allen's "Hannah and Her Sisters" (1986).

In a personal and creative triumph, von Sydow delivered one of his finest onscreen roles, playing a humble old Swedish widower struggling for survival alongside his son as immigrants to Denmark in Bille August's "Pelle the Conqueror" (1988), the Oscar-winning Best Foreign Film that earned him the first Academy Award nomination of his long career. Stepping behind the camera for the first time, von Sydow made an unspectacular directing debut with "Katinka" (1988), adapted from Herman Bang's novel Along the Road". In a return to his beginnings on the stage, he delivered a performance as Prospero in a London production of "The Tempest" (1988). Back on the small screen, he appeared in several made-for-television movies, including "Red King, White Knight" (HBO, 1989) and "Hiroshima: Out of the Ashes" (NBC, 1990), in which he played Father Siemes, who helps survivors after the 1945 nuclear bombing. In the turkey, “A Kiss Before Dying” (1991), he played a wealthy businessman whose daughter becomes the victim of murder at the hands of an ingratiating schemer (Matt Dillon).

Following a trip to the sci-fi realms of Wim Wenders’ cyberpunk noir “Until the End of the World” (1991), von Sydow renewed his association with Bergman, playing the heroine's father in August's "The Best Intentions" (1992), which he preceded by playing a priest who urges a farmer who kills his estate owner’s ox to feed his family for the winter in "The Ox" (1992), directed by Bergman’s long-time cinematographer Sven Nykvist. He next played a devilish antiques store owner in a big screen adaptation of Stephen King’s “Needful Things” (1993), after which he played Judge Fargo in the blockbuster Sylvester Stallone vehicle “Judge Dredd” (1995). On the small screen once again, he appeared in the based-on-real-life serial killer drama "Citizen X" (HBO, 1995), followed by a turn as an aging priest and mentor to a woman (Pernilla August) who admits infidelity to her husband (Samuel Fröler) in “Private Confessions” (1996), written by Ingmar Bergman and directed by actress Liv Ullmann. He next played Norwegian hero and Nobel Prize-winning novelist Knut Hamsun who sided with the Nazis in "Hamsun" (1996).

After a supporting role in the Rutger Hauer thriller "Hostile Waters" (HBO, 1997), he was a wise guide who leads a distraught man (Robin Williams) across the River Styx after his death in the Technicolor fantasy "What Dreams May Come" (1998). He followed this role by playing the defense attorney for a Japanese-American man (Rick Yune) on trial for the murder of his close friend (Eric Thal) in “Snow Falling on Cedars,” which he followed by a portrayal of the biblical King David in the two-part miniseries “Solomon” (PAX TV, 2000). Maintaining a steady presence on the screen, von Sydow was a wizened old druid in the aptly named historical epic “Druids” (2001), a casino owner who loses everything in “Intacto” (2002) and the corrupt director of the futuristic pre-crime unit in Steven Spielberg’s compelling actioner, “Minority Report” (2002). Going back in time a couple thousand years, he co-starred as a pagan king in the German-made sword-and-sorcery epic “Dark Kingdom: The Dragon King” (2004). Following the low-key “Autumn Hearts: A New Beginning” (2007), von Sydow was a French ambassador who becomes the victim of a car bombing in the action comedy sequel “Rush Hour 3” (2007). Von Sydow next played the father of a 16th century Puritan (James Purefoy) who travels the world vanquishing evil in “Solomon Kane” (2009), while joining the cast of “The Tudors” (Showtime, 2007- ) for the third season, playing the fierce and moral Cardinal Von Waldburg, who becomes a potent critic and adversary to King Henry VIII (Jonathan Rhys Meyers).

SBHarris 19:58, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't we write to IP 99.253.42.11 about this and try to find out somehow if this rather well-written text is free to use? SergeWoodzing (talk) 20:51, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

That's not the IP that added it, but I'll put a note on the TALK page of the one that did. SBHarris 20:54, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Sorry! And thanx! SergeWoodzing (talk) 21:05, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Divorce?

The main text says he was divorced in 1979 and did not remarry until 1997. The infobox says he remained married to his first wife until 1996, remarrying the following year. Which is it? Isaac (talk) 17:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

1996 as per this site 217.209.96.57 (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The year 1979 has still not been changed to 1996.

Also, did Max and Catherine give birth to Cedric and Yvan more than 25 years before their own marriage? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.13.199.80 (talk) 03:55, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

pronunciation

Does anyone know? Lfh (talk) 10:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Question is a bit unclear. In English: von (rhymes with on, con, Ron) See-doe. I have never heard anyone call him "Sy-dow" (sigh-doe). Swedish "y" phonetic equivalent does not exist in English. SergeWoodzing (talk) 02:12, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. What I meant was, how is his name pronounced in the original Swedish? That's what we should add to the article - unless he has switched to the anglicized version. Lfh (talk) 09:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, in the original German, it's sue-doh. He himself says it might be older than the German heritage and be an east German/slavic name. The Swedish pronunciation is entirely irrelevant. Oh, here is the interview: http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=3985689.166.253.1 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:36, 14 April 2012 (UTC).

Rather a moot question, in my opinion, since (1) English is only understandable (as any language is) if you stick to the phonetics of that language when pronouncing everything, including names, and (2) as stated above, the "y" cannot be pronounced by English-speaking people since the sound does not exist in English. Cordially, SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:29, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

What I hoped for was an IPA rendering of the Swedish pron, using Wikipedia:IPA for Swedish and Norwegian. It's not unreasonable to wonder how a Swede's name is pronounced in Swedish, even if he is no longer resident in Sweden. How Anglophones pronounce his name is simply a separate question, but I will add the English pronunciation that you gave - thank you for that. Lfh (talk) 10:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course the Swedish pronounciation should be there. A persons name is not to be changed due to linguistic reasons. Try follow User:SergeWoodzing's reasoning in a country where you do not use western Christian names. It is also an insult not to try to pronounce a person's name correct. /89.160.42.208 (talk) 09:39, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Names are pronounced correct (sic s b correctly) in any language by using the phonetics of that language. It is an (quote) "insult" to anyone to mispronounce a name against that basic rule, making the name unintelligible in the language used. I am restoring the useful English pronunciation used by everyone who knows von Sydow, knows basic English phonetics (not many Swedes do) and speaks of him correctly and courteously in English. I have met him several times, and he pronounces his name in English, for the simple reason that his intelligence and cosmopolitan smoothness tell him that people then might know what his name is when he says it. But I'm also leaving the Sw. pron, in there to show good faith. SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:45, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

As English has many different pronounciation, by your reasoning you have to state what kind of English you use. Is it American, British, Australian or something else? A lot of Swedes anglify their names when speaking to people not used to Swedish. I, on the other hand always says my name as the way I was baptised (Martin), and explains that it has the same spelling as Martin (but with British English pronounciation). 89.160.42.208 (talk) 22:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

which of the many varieties of British English pronunciation (note spelling) are you referring to? Mikael leskozeg (talk) 00:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

You are free to pronounce your name however you'd like, sir, though I can only recommend cordially that you will succeed the best if you learn and use English phonetics when speaking English, for any and all words, including names. Just my opinion, based on decades of experience. The pronunciation given here in the same in British, American or any other proper English. More importantly (as stated above) it is the way his friends and associates and von Sydow himself pronounce his name in English. SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:03, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

"As English has many different pronounciation, by your reasoning you have to state what kind of English you use." Actually, no. Wikipedia's IPA conventions for English are not specific to any one dialect: see WP:IPAEN. The English transcription we have here is fine, and indeed we now have exactly what I hoped for when I posted this discussion. Lfh (talk) 09:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I for one am pleased about that, Lfh. It was a good discussion to start and thus you deserved to get what you hoped for. SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:45, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Citizenship conflict

The lede tells us he "is a Swedish actor, who holds dual Swedish and French citizenship".

But Personal life says "He received French citizenship in 2002 and holds only French citizenship now".

These statements cannot both be correct. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:20, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Seems to have been changed to "a French actor born in Sweden"... Which is also incorrect, IMO: He is by birth, ethnicity, culture and three-quarters of a century of life Swedish, and has had a French passport for about a decade -- so AFAICS the correct phrasing should be something along the lines of "a Swedish actor and [as of recently a] French citizen".

Also, I wonder about the headline of this discussion section: There doesn't seem to have been much of a "conflict" about his citizenship in the first place; he says himself in the article quoted as note #2 (from Aftonbladet) that he "had to give up" his Swedish citizenship when he became a French citizen, which must mean simply that France does not allow dual citizenships. He claims to still love Sweden, just that he had to pick one and he lives in France nowadays.--CRConrad (talk) 15:10, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

The wording of the lead is governed by WP:BLPLEAD, which states that ethnicity is only to be mentioned in the lead only if it is related to the notability of the subject, in which this case it is not— Sydow is notable for his acting career, not his Swedishness. Referring to him as French is compliant with the guideline.

BTW, both Sweden and France allowed dual citizenship as of 2002, which is the date given in the Aftonbladet article. France has permitted it for decades but Sweden only permitted it starting in 2001, so maybe there was a timing issue or something during the various bureaucratic processes. Regards, Orange Suede Sofa (talk) 19:31, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Up until 2003, by law, Swedish citizens who applied for and were granted citizenship in another country automatically lost their Swedish citizenship. That's what happened in this case. Von Sydow has not renounced his Swedish citizenship, it was cancelled by the Swedish government because of that law. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:43, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

removed dangling "references"

These bits were removed from the References section. If anyone knows how they are related to page content, please feel free to add them as proper references.

9. Sveriges befolkning 1970, Svensk Arkivinformation (SVAR), 2002

10. Sveriges dödbok 1901 – 2009, Sveriges Släktforskarförbund, 2011

Cheers! Doctormatt (talk) 21:07, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Above text?

Why are we not using the above???

Peregrine981 13:53, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Because no one decided to do so. I did. I also added Swedish film titles, and did extensive wikifying. Sir Paul 12:18, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for breaking the terrible spell of inertia! Peregrine981 01:32, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

reference to reported death

There is a duplicate reference (https://www.parismatch.com/Culture/Cinema/L-acteur-Max-von-Sydow-est-mort-1677726) for his reported death. I don't know how to consolidate them--TheCubes (talk) 12:48, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Martin Ljung with Povel and Beppe?

Isen't it Martin Ljung with Povel and Beppe in the picture?--Zzalpha (talk) 14:59, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Place of death

According to this (https://www.aftonbladet.se/nojesbladet/a/jdAKPn/max-von-sydow-ar-dod) a representative said he died at his home in Provence, however this article says he died in Paris. I cannot find anything about him dying in Paris Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 15:48, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

• Provence is a region in south west of France, not a city. A city should be mentioned as a place of death. Nicolas Hermann FR (talk) 17:28, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Nationality

It's getting a bit annoying to see people remove Swedish-French and replace it with just Swedish. It is factually incorrect and frankly pretty close to vandalism. Von Sydow was a French citizen who died in France, having lived several decades in France. I agree putting only 'French' would not be great either, but if we had to give only nationality, it would be French. We don't, but neither can we put only Swedish for someone who was a French citizen only. Jeppiz (talk) 10:20, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

People change their legal nationality, often long after they have become notable, as in this case. Another example, much edit-warred over, is Tina Turner. We are here to inform readers, not to mislead them. In this case, the footnote and the infobox both make clear that he was born in Sweden but later took French nationality. I would not necessarily oppose a mention of his taking French nationality in the introductory paragraphs - or, changing "Swedish" to "Swedish-born" - but to emphasise his latterday French citizenship in the opening sentence would be unnecessary and could be misleading. If the guidance at MOS:BIO needs to be changed to reflect cases like this, it should be changed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:26, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely. We should in no way over-emphasise it nor should we deny. We should present facts neutrally. That means putting Swedish-French in the lead (Swedish first) and explain in article (as we already do). Jeppiz (talk) 11:26, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

But what does "Swedish-French" mean? It's not obvious. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:51, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Almost a year later, but I don't see why he can't be described as being "Swedish-French." For example, actress Liu Yifei only has American citizenship because China doesn't recognize dual citizenship (a note in her article explains that). But it was decided that she be described as being "Chinese-American" because although she's only an American citizen, she is more active in the Chinese entertainment industry. If we follow the "Context" section for WP:BIOLEAD "Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Then von Sydow's lede should say "Swedish-French", as he only had French citizenship from 2002-2020 but was born/raised and active in Sweden before. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

I think we're in a situation not too dissimilar to that of Frédéric Chopin's. There were very extended discussions regarding how he should be defined in the opening. Either way, I believe we should go with how reliable sources present him.

• The Los Angeles Times went with "Swedish actor Max von Sydow", and towards the end of the article mentioned that "he surrendered his Swedish citizenship to become a French national".
• The New York Times went with "Max von Sydow, the tall, blond Swedish actor". No mentions of his French citizenship.
• The Hollywood Reporter went with "the acclaimed Swedish actor". No mentions of his French citizenship.
• The Telegraph did not define him. Later in the article it mentioned his French citizenship.
• The Guardian went with "Swedish stage and screen actor". No mentions of his French citizenship.
• Screen went with "Swedish actor". No mentions of his French citizenship.
• BBC went with "the Swedish-born actor". Later mentioned that he "became a citizen of France".
• CNN went with "Swedish actor Max von Sydow". No mentions of his French citizenship.
• AP went with "born in Sweden but became a French citizen".
• Vulture went with "The Swedish-born von Sydow". No mentions of his French citizenship.

I believe these are pretty representative samples of just how von Sydow is presented at the time of his death by reliable sources. The vast majority of them simply refer to him as "Swedish", which corresponds to how he is usually perceived to be, but a fair number of them would also take note of his French citizenship (admittedly, many of them also consider the fact not worth mentioning when looking at his whole life and career). Essentially, reliable sources are giving a lot of weight to his Swedish-ness, and a debatable level of weight to his French-ness.

With all that in mind, I believe we should either present him as Swedish or Swedish-born, with his French citizenship mentioned either through a note, later in the lede, or simply not in the lede at all and let the "Personal life" section deal with it. Morningstar1814 (talk) 13:57, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Morningstar1814, that is solid argumentation. Never the one to object just for the sake of it, I'm happy to go along with just "Swedish" in the lead based on this precedent you provide. Good work, thanks! Jeppiz (talk) 16:05, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Note to Morningstar1814 and Jeppiz, this seems to have come up as an issue again and I want to make sure this consensus is held to pending any significant extenuating circumstances - that the lede call him Swedish and that any info on renounced or acquired citizenship be placed later in the article proper, particularly as the subject in question is deceased.TeenieTinyTiger (talk) 23:59, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I particularly objected to (and reverted) a recent misleading attempt to label him only "Swedish-born" in the lead. Von Sydow was not just Swedish-born, he grew up there, had all his education & training there, worked there extensively & and had is first family there. Is there consensus not to mention in the lead that we acquired French citizenship after moving to France late in life? Should one have to search the article for that, having seen, with no explanation, in the info box that he became French? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 09:37, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

SergeWoodzing - A few months late, but is the consensus still to only say "Swedish"? Seems weird that him being a French citizen is only limited to a footnote in the lede. I mean, he spent the last 25 or so years of his life in France, he only held French citizenship from 2002 till his death, and he did die in France. Looking at the Tina Turner comparison, Turner was an American until she got Swiss citizenship in 2013 and relinquished her American citizenship. She gets described as being an "American-born Swiss" despite being born, raised and doing most of her notable activities in America. I don't see why Max can't be any different. I think describing him as either being a Swedish-born French or Swedish-born actor who later held French citizenship would be the most accurate for describing his life. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 03:06, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

For reasons I've tried to explain above, I object to "Swedish-born" because that looks like he was only born there (see everything else I listed) and that all else occurred in France. a Swedish French actor would be what's normal, and I see no reason why we cannot have what's normal even here. Thank you for asking! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:14, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

SergeWoodzing - Pardon me tagging you again, but I agree. Ultimately, I think "Swedish-French" would be the best descriptor and I also don't see why he can't be described as such. Following the "Context" section of WP:BIOLEAD: Similarly, previous nationalities or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. In this case, him previously being Swedish is relevant to the subject's notability, but I don't think the fact that he only had French citizenship for the last 20ish years of his life should be left as a footnote, hence "Swedish-French." I don't know how the similar situation with Tina Turner was resolved, but I also don't agree with her being described as an "American-born Swiss", as that ignores the fact that she's from America, most notable as an American singer, and also like Max, only became a citizen to another country during their old age. Another actress with lede issues is Liu Yifei, who got American citizenship and therefore is no longer a Chinese citizen because the government doesn't recognize dual citizenship. There was a lot of debate, but in the end, the consensus was that she be described as being "Chinese-American", with a footnote explaining her citizenship. The reasoning was that, although she only held American citizenship, she was born in and mostly active in China. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Let's do this! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:05, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

 Done --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:08, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Filmography

As I understand it, the point of splitting off the filmography to Max von Sydow filmography was to get this page ready to be posted to Wikipedia:In the news/Recent deaths as the sourcing for the filmography wasn't up to snuff for the WP:Main Page. Well now the sourcing has been fixed, so it is unnecessary hide the filmography on another page. It's not prohibitively lengthy either, so I transcluded it, but that edit was later reverted by TDKR Chicago 101. Really though, we don't need a separate page for the filmography at all, so we could simply merge it back here. What say you? TompaDompa (talk) 09:46, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I would say it actually makes sense to move his filmography to a separate page with regards to his lengthy career. Sourcing is no longer an issue now thanks to your efforts, right now it's more about keeping the length of this article in check. I believe the Katharine Hepburn approach would be worth considering, that is to only list the movies von Sydow was best known to have appeared in.Morningstar1814 (talk) 13:59, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

I also Believe that it was a good decision moving it to a stand alone page, since, as Morningstar mentions, he had a very lengthy career. Zandor (talk) 14:10, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Quest for capital consistency

Some of these sentences start with a "von" and some go "Von". I won't say either way is right (I barely read about him), but both sure isn't. Feel free to form a consensus, or to struggle endlessly amongst yourselves, but pretending there isn't a problem won't solve anything. InedibleHulk (talk) 09:34, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I would be surprised if there is any reliable source, in English, that starts a sentence about von Sydow with a lower case letter. I've reverted the last edit to the page. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:36, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised it only got mixed up that recently. Had I known it would be so easy on this device, I'd have done it myself. Thanks! InedibleHulk (talk) 12:04, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

That's done in Swedish, not in English. I'd like to include my thanks for fixing it. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Changing photo upon death

I noticed that Christopher Plummer got a much more flattering, older photo when he died - I think this is a good idea for von Sydow, who currently has a sad, mopey, unflattering picture, and I'm sure there are a large amount of black and white portraits of him within Wikipedia fair use guidelines. Thoughts? Jihaslun (talk) 14:56, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Go for it! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:37, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

Age discrepancy. Date of Birth & Date of Death doesn't add up.

89 should be his age when he passed. He passed a little over a full month before he would've turned 90. 2600:1005:B0D1:96D2:3057:88E8:2BF2:7DF7 (talk) 03:54, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Your math is wrong. April 1929 to March 2020 is 90 years and 11 months. He was, in fact, almost 91. 142.127.45.36 (talk) 04:33, 12 August 2022 (UTC)