Talk:Michael Cammalleri

Cammalleri
Isn't it a Maltese last name? This would make him Maltese, not Italian.

Norum 18:49, November 10, 2007 (UTC)

I think Cammalleri/Camilleri can be either Maltese or Italian. I've been trying to find out if he's Maltese or Italian too. Note how Michael Cammalleri spells his surname though, all my Maltese relatives spell it Camilleri.

My surname is Mazzitelli, I'm Italian. See the simalarities? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.245.214.167 (talk) 19:09, January 23, 2011 (UTC)

2010 Playoffs
Why is there no mention of his 2010 playoff performance so far? He is leading the league in goals and is basically playing the best hockey of his career. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pphresh (talk • contribs) 17:49, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * typically pages are updated after the completion of a season or post season and not in the middle--Mo Rock...Monstrous (talk) 17:57, May 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * That and nobody has gotten around to it. I generally do updates on player articles I care about at the end of the season, but if you wish to make sourced additions to the article, feel free. Reso lute 23:28, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Jewish
Why is it so important to remove all mention of his being Jewish? It's mentioned briefly at the end and referenced. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:00, December 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * An SPA IP editor, I would not worry. Dbrodbeck (talk) 04:46, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

NHL playoff totals
His total playoff goals is wrong. 1+13+3=17, not 18 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.75.181.75 (talk) 18:46, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * It sure is. Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 18:50, December 30, 2011 (UTC)

TRADED
Just announced on TSN at 9:50pm EST, January 12, 2012, traded to Calgary flames. 99.248.236.5 (talk) 02:52, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing has been confirmed. Wait until there is proper information. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:01, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Confirmed, long ago.99.245.37.46 (talk) 03:14, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure if we should add a brief mention about the circumstances prior to the trade... i.e. his criticism of the team "being constantly losing" and also his coach on his ice time reduction since the firing of Jacques Martin. . 173.179.155.183 (talk) 15:43, January 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I was actually planning to re-write and expand this article (today, even). The circumstances surrounding the deal will definitely be mentioned. Reso lute 16:32, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

On being "Jewish"
Some users are trying to define him as "Jewish" rather than Italian or Canadian. Just to be clear, his mother is Jewish, he is not. From the actual sources in the article:
 * "My dad's family are immigrants from Italy and Catholics, and my grandmother on my mother's side is from Czech, and my grandfather is from Poland - and they're Holocaust survivors. I never had communion or a bar mitzvah," he added. "I was raised non-denominationally. --Львівське (говорити) 02:04, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * The RSs -- including the major RS Sports Illustrated -- identify him as Jewish, and one of them (JSR) only does so after checking with the player himself.  The category "Jewish" is not mutually exclusive from Italian or Canadian -- the suggestion above that they are mutually exclusive is incorrect.  Similarly, one can be Jewish without a bar mitzvah.  That is irrelevant.  Finally, one can be Jewish and be raised non-denominationally.  So what we have here is someone identified as Jewish by the RSs, including major ones such as the SI, and who has been checked with personally.  There is no reason to delete the information -- though I see the above editor has seen fit to strip certain hockey players of such information as to them being Jewish, for reasons that escape me, despite RS support.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:48, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is now original research on your part. If he says he's non-religious with a secular upbringing, you can't use secondary sources to prove him, a primary source, wrong.--Львівське (говорити) 02:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * "Sports Illustrated" have now become authorities on complex ethnic/economic/political issues? Hmm, Epeefleche, I seem to recall that during the Cold War SI often referred to athletes from the USSR as being Russians regardless of which part they were from (non-Slavic regions included), and the Soviet Union as Russia... ad hoc & ad nauseum! I'd rather not go to the trouble but, if needs be, I will dig out such articles for your edification. SI are not exactly renown for anything other than sports analysis and being a commercial concern more whose financial priorities lie with selling a story via popular headlines and bylines. It seems to me that this is a feeble argument for, "Sports Illustrated in a high profile periodical, therefore all of the information it carries is is legitimate simply by the fact of its being." By supporting SI's article you're basically saying that it's prudent to assume (or was no one taught that it makes 'an ass out of you and me' while at school)? Is there any proof that Cammalleri, personally, 'approved' of being tossed into the Jewish athletes section. Has he ever declared, "Yes, I'm Jewish and I'm proud of it." Of could, had he not been pleased with the article, he could have been 'morally righteous' and taken on SI in a law suit over this depiction (& ended up in debt & being called anti-Semitic). As it is, his personal stance is recorded as being, "My dad's family are immigrants from Italy and Catholics, and my grandmother on my mother's side is from Czech, and my grandfather is from Poland - and they're Holocaust survivors. I never had communion or a bar mitzvah," he added. "I was raised non-denominationally."' This strikes mas as being a fairly absolute personal stance on who he perceives himself to be... unless he's made further statements declaring himself to be Jewish since then. I would suggest that you read Jewish identity and Who is a Jew?. The jury is still out. Until a consensus is reached, Cammalleri has first dibs on who he sees himself as being. In the meantime, based on his statement, I'm certain you could have no objections to my popping the "Canadian atheists" template into this page. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:58, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * If Cammalleri describes his ethnic background in terms of Italian, Polish, Czech and Catholic and not in terms of Judaism, then I'd be inclined to take his word on it before I took some bloke SI pays to put together photomontages for its website.   Ravenswing   06:40, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * The sources make it clear from his own mouth that Cammalleri's Jewishness relate to ancestry, not religion. As such, the fact that his mother is Jewish deserves no greater attention than the fact that his father is Italian.  The attempts to pull his Jewishness out and highlight it like this is giving undue weight. We don't start the section with "Cammalleri is Italian..." or "Cammalleri is an Italian Jew", and we should likewise not start with "Cammalleri is Jewish".  We should make simple note of his Jewish ancestry, exactly as we do his Italian ancestry. Reso lute 17:29, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Reso. First, please see my comments on this page as to JSR focusing on, as you put it, what comes out of his mouth.  Second, please understand that in Judaism one is born Jewish based if they are born to a Jewish mother, as he was.  I am not sure if you are born to an Italian mother, that you are ipso facto Italian, or that we have any refs at all saying "Cam is Italian," but if we do then certainly that is appropriate to reflect as well.  And we can certainly reflect that his parent is Italian (whether or not that makes him Italian, as is the case with Judaism).  Third, please see the most recently deleted reference.  It is all of two words.  And it is relevant because it relates to him, not just to his parents.  And it comes at the end of the sentence.  And it has a dozen refs, to RSs such as Sports Illustrated and the century-old Forward, and JSR, all of which say not simply that his mother was Jewish--but that he is Jewish. And since this article is about him, that is more relevant that what his mother is.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:53, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Because this is a WP:BIO and we can't have third hand or original research stuffing up his bio, I removed the WP:CITEKILL attempt per WP:BLPREMOVE (which says to "Remove immediately"). The sources were just blogs and online newspapers that made passing mention to him being "a jewish player". Of course, him being of Jewish descent would qualify him for such lists. However, without self-identification or a source confirming that he considers himself Jewish (or converted to Judaism after the fact, somehow), saying outright that he is "Jewish" is a very contentious thing to do. Of course, the sources confirming his secular beliefs and mother's Jewish background remain, and the category for canadians of jewish descent also remain - because they are properly cited. --Львівське (говорити) 20:37, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Repeated deletions by Lvivske of RSs, and RS-supported text. This editor continues -- despite robust discussion on his talk page (most of which he has deleted) and here -- to delete both RS refs (e.g., including Sports Illustrated, the Forward, etc.) and the text it supports.  Most recently here.  In that deletion, he deleted a dozen RSs that directly support the statement at hand, including one (JSR) that only does so after checking with the player himself.  He clearly removed RSs.  They clearly and flatly state the fact in question.  This is completely inappropriate, and coupled with his efforts to strip other Jewish bios of appropriate RS-supported material is a concern.  We have multiple RS stating flatly that he is Jewish, and one checks with the athlete and gets his input before making an assertion.  One does not need to "have a bar mitzvah" to be Jewish.  And one does not have to be raised in a religious household to be Jewish.  Just look at the list of Jewish Nobel Prize winners, and all the discussion related to it.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:55, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure, but why should Cammalleri's Jewish ancestry be given such weight relative to his Italian ancestry? Reso lute 22:44, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Both are appropriate to reflect, if there is RS support. The "is Jewish" mention deleted here is all of two words. And supported by a dozen references. Yet this editor is deleting those two words, and the dozen supporting refs.--Epeefleche (talk) 00:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * With respect, Epeefleche, using 11 references to try and justify two words is ridiculous, particularly when most of them are publications that exist to push a stong pro-Jewish POV. Regardless, my question remains unanswered.  Why does his Jewish ancestry deserve to be highlighted in such fashion?  It is already mentioned that he has Jewish ancestry through his mother, just as it is mentioned he has Italian ancestry through his father.  I still don't see why "Mike Cammalleri is Jewish" is considered so important that it warrants being the very first thing stated in the article. Resolute 15:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * In all honesty, who the hell cares about this? Is it that important what religion his grandmother is/was?  I find it hard to fathom how this is at all notable.  Dbrodbeck (talk) 15:24, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * And I'm sorry, but now we're talking about a BLP issue. If Cammalleri does not identify as Jewish, claims that he is should not be given heavy weight in the article ... and truth be told, I'm inclined to regard publications that can be considered to have an interest in "See!  There are lots of Jewish athletes!" over the athletes themselves to be on shaky footing in the WP:IRS department.  Having a Jewish grandparent, it's possible myself to claim Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return, but 75% of my ancestry is not Jewish, nevertheless.   Ravenswing  
 * But he does identify as Jewish. See my comments above and below.  And this is more than (though it would be enough) the fact that he is born Jewish--by being born to a Jewish mother. He is also listed by JSR, which by its procedures lists only those athletes whom they contact who identify personally with being Jewish.  In your case, if you were contacted by JSR, and were to say you did not identify as being Jewish, you would not be reflected as such.  As to the publications and books, they are RSs -- from Sports Illustrated to the Forward (a newspaper well over a century old that is indubitably an RS) to JSR (relied upon by all manner of other RSs) to the others, and are accepted as such across the project.  And we have a number of them here -- about a dozen, of all stripes.Epeefleche (talk) 00:02, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * I beg your pardon, Epeefleche, but you changed the article after this latest discussion on THIS talk page despite the fact that the only responses were from 3 editors/contributors who disagreed with your POV, even specifying their reasons for not accepting the RS refs. I have also noted that there were no responses in your favour. Could you indicate where in the cited articles it is specified that Cammalleri was personally interviewed by the journalist in question? I'm not particularly interested in your accusation regarding Lvivske's talk page. It seems that you've taken it upon yourself to add your POV to the article without waiting for further input and some form of consensus regarding the matter simply because it didn't suit you personally. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:08, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * In terms of Iryna's comments -- I see to my surprise that you are a rather new editor. Welcome. I commend you on how quickly you have edited like a long-term editor. Responding to your comment, I added a number of sources to the article when I changed it. I did not add POV -- I added RSs.  RSs that are relied on throughout the project, and that have been determined to be RSs, ranging from Sports Illustrated to the Forward to JSR.  And a good number more.            You may have a view that differs from Sports Illustrated.  But we rely on RSs, not on individual editors' views.  JSR's criteria require, for an athlete to be reflected as Jewish, among other things that he personally identify ethnically as a member of the Jewish community.  JSR reaches out to each such athlete personally, to see if that is the case.  It also requires that one of his parents be Jewish (unless he converted), and that he not practice any other religion.  If an athlete has a Jewish parent but was raised in, or converted to, another faith, or indicated to JSR that he did not wish to be considered Jewish, he is excluded (even though under Jewish law he might be considered Jewish). Here, JSR has identified the player as Jewish, and we know per their procedures that they did this after contacting him and him meeting their criteria.

Epeefleche (talk) 00:37, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the welcome, Epeefleche. It's a pleasure to meet you. I have, in fact, looked at the sources cited when you added them to the article before they were reverted. While I understand the rationale for your inclusions, I'm actually concerned with WP:BLPSTYLE. If his Jewishness is given this much attention then his Italian background should be given as much weight. I don't believe these issues to be of great consequence and are unduly weighting the bio away from the man as a sports star. If he were outspoken on issues of ethnicity, I certainly wouldn't have any objections to tracts dedicated to his ethnicity. Tacit/passive agreement to be recognised as having Jewish ethnics in his background don't fall into this category. I have also directed you to the articles (above in earlier comment) in Wikipedia regarding disputes within the Jewish community as to how Jewishness is defined. I have no objection to such citations in the reflist if they are placed in an appropriate section of the article. To have a lengthy mass of text within the article on the subject, along with an exhaustive list of citations, is inappropriate within this context. The crux of the matter lies with |Cammilleri's perception of himself<-- (it doesn't show the relevant page, being page 3) which simply doesn't tally with warranting so much information regarding his Jewishness. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This entire discussion is about the deletion of 2 words. "is Jewish."  The 2 words are at the end of sentence.  I don't see a weight problem.  The 2 words are supported by a dozen refs (now, after multiple deletions when they had fewer refs) -- it is fine to limit that to even 1 ref, or 2, or 3, IMHO.  And if we have a ref saying that he is Italian, we should add "is Italian," with that ref.  No issue there.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, the change is heavily weighted. I'm from Australia and have never even heard of Cammilleri in my life. I truly stumbled across this article and have no vested interest in the man on any level. I read the article as neutral user of Wikipedia wanting to find out something about this player because of a Canadian neighbour who is ice-hockey mad. Your amendments have been placed in the introductory piece on his early life. As per your revisions, "Cammalleri was born in Richmond Hill, Ontario, and is Jewish, and was raised in a secular household (he describes his upbringing as "non-denominational")." is very, very different to, "Cammalleri was born in Richmond Hill, Ontario, and was raised in a secular household (he describes his upbringing as "non-denominational")." Your 3 words have been strategically placed to change the complexion of this section completely. It is already noted that his mother is of a Jewish background. I find this additional information to be not only superfluous but distracting from the content. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:38, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clarifying -- here I thought you might have appeared at this talk page because of a different reason. Quite odd that you came to this particular talk page the way that you describe, you have to admit.  Baffling, almost.
 * He is Jewish. That is beyond cavil, and reflected in 12 refs.  He was Jewish at birth.  The fact is reflected in the sentence in his personal section about him -- that is the logical place to reflect it.  It is a sentence fragment.  How could it be shorter?  It can't.  The reflection of his being Jewish is of course different than reflecting the religion of a parent -- since this is an article about him, not his parent, it is even more relevant to reflect his religion.  And on top of that we have more sources reflecting his religion, and one has the procedure of checking with him.--Epeefleche (talk) 04:43, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Not so baffling considering that Chris (my Canadian neighbour) happens to be a chef - and a terrific chef at that. Unfortunately, despite her best efforts, his wife can't stop him from babbling on about about ice-hockey. In the interests of fine dining, rather than being bored to death, I thought it might be nice to familiarise myself with some of his heroes and the like. Mind you, if you hear of a woman in Australia beating a man to death with his hockey bag it'll probably be me. Have you ever been caught downwind of someone who's just returned from his weekly hockey game and insists on cornering you with a blow by blow description of the game? Ugh! I digress. I still have a problem with featuring Cammalleri's Jewishness in such a manner. I don't see how it can be added without clarification of the Jewish laws that have been applied to this status and are not necessarily perceived as being applicable in this day and age within the Jewish community itself. This would amount to a convoluted, long winded explanation of arguments for and against the label attributed. Given the context, I feel it to be inappropriate... and your suggested approach of, "he is Jewish" (despite the 'evidence' you have supplied) is a terrible oversimplification. I am sorry that I honestly don't feel that it sits comfortably with me as I do understand and sympathise with where you're coming from. The fact is that, given other vital facts surrounding his bio, this 'fact' doesn't fit within the context of his bio. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 05:56, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * We have a good selection of mainstream media reporting that he is Jewish. This appears to be open and shut.--38.98.96.194 (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Rather than doubling up, as you've done, please see my response below in the sources section. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:10, 9 August 2013 (UTC)