Talk:Mike Huckabee/Archive 1

Views on Evolution
I strongly support listing Huckabee's views on evolution. There was a comment made by a redactor which said that Evolution is a scientific, not political position. The funny thing about science is that science findings affect politics. Three examples would be scientific claims leading to bans on cigarette advertising, scientific claims about the ills effects of pollution on human health lead to regulation of pollution and of course, global warming claims have political implications. Therefore, Huckabee's views on evolution should be included as stupid. Jmegill 18:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous Objection over Huckabee as a fiscal moderate or liberal
=== I do not see any substantiation for the statement that Huckabee is a fiscal moderate or liberal. That should come out of there.


 * To anonymous: First, I encourage you to get an account rather than making anonymous comments.  Second, there is evidence for calling Huckabee a fiscal liberal.  The Cato institute ranks state governors on fiscal policy.  Here: http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa581/reportcard_table.html  For 2006, they ranked 46 state governors.  40 governors had a more conservative fiscal policy than Huckabee, 1 tied with him and 4 had a more liberal fiscal policy.  This is strong evidence for calling Huckabee a fiscal liberal.  If Huckabee was in the top third of the list, he could have been called a fiscal conservative.  If Huckabee was in the middle third, then he could have been called a fiscal moderate.  However, he is in the bottom third (bottom sixth in fact) and should be called a fiscal liberal.  --SNSAnchor 18:08, 1 September 2007 (UTC) Jmegill 18:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think context is important. To look at stats in a vacuum can be unfair. An example of a request for money could be because roads are some of the worst in the country, due to negligence of a predecessor. Thus, a person cannot simply look at money spent without context. Brian Pearson 00:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV dispute
Hi, I deleted two criticisms that didn't maintain a neutral point of view and seemed too opinionanted for a wiki article.

.--Pic82101 17:02, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Not a bad article. There were a few points that are too opinionated and don't fit in with a factual encyclopedia article, but on the whole not bad. I deleted the last paragraph due to my previous statementJfulkerson

This article makes Huckabee out to be some kind of savior. It is only contrasted by a small "criticisms" section at the end, designed to provide an opposing point of view. Unfortunately, it falls short and ultimately makes the article too opinionated for Wikipedia.--Nscaife 23:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)Nscaife

I added some more information about the Dumond case in order to provide a more complete picture of what happened. There are still some problems with this entry, but this hopefully balances it out a little more. Maximusveritas 23:42, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The Dumond section needs to be rewritten. The information about the case is political. It has information regarding the Dumond case which; (1) does not help explain the criticism against Huckabee, (2) uses misleading articles to dismiss the criticism, and (3) is untrue and from unreliable sources. First, it fails to discuss the criticism against Huckabee, for example the fact Huckabee may have lied about his actions taken and used political pressure to get Dumond released. Second, the Arkansas Democrat Gazette article it cites to dismiss the criticism is misleading because it is not discussing the clemencies actually granted but is looking at the number granted. Third, the main source it cites disregards most of the other sources this article uses, speicifically articles written by Steve Dunleavy. ("What {Steve} Dunleavy has written about the Dumond saga has been either unverified or is demonstrably untrue".) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Afberry25 (talk • contribs).
 * I do agree that the section in its previous form spent too much time on things that didn't have to do with Huckabee. I was just trying to give the whole story, but I agree now that much of it probably was not relevant to this page. As far as Huckabee's possible attempts to influence the board, the section does mention that and also mentions that he denies it.  I'm not sure what else there is to say.  If you have anything else notable to add, please do so.  As far as the unreliable source (Dunleavy), I only used him as an example of a critic of Clinton's and in order to provide the quote from Dumond's wife.  Just because he was wrong about Dumond's innocence doesn't mean we can't use his articles as sources for direct quotes from 3rd parties.  Finally, I do agree that the wording of the last sentence is unclear, so I will try to fix that. Thanks for pointing out the problems.  Let me know if there's anything else that needs revision. Maximusveritas 02:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove the POV tag without an explanation. -- Scaife 17:02, 06 February 2006
 * There doesn't seem to be an explanation about why the POV tag is there in the first place.. at least not for the Dumond stuff.  TastyCakes 18:36, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * NScaife added the POV tag for the reasons he stated above. That was before any of the Dumond stuff was added.  The reason there is an original research tag in the Dumond section is because I hadn't added the appropriate references yet (since I wasn't sure how to do it at the time).  I still need to find the full info on some of the citations, but I think it's mostly covered so I'll remove that tag later if there are no objections. - Maximusveritas 21:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have any objections to removing the POV tag? Scaife's reasons for the tag appear to have been addressed for the most part. There is now a significant criticism section to balance Huckabee's accomplishments. I'll remove it in a week or so if there are no objections. Maximusveritas 21:05, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

*Until the editing war regarding the "convict release" is resolved, the NPOV tag is going to be re-introduced. Thanks - Eisenmond 21:41, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I made a slight change which I hope is OK with everyone: I removed the wording "accused of ... pressuring." Such a wording implies that there was something illegal or unethical about Huckabee's actions.  I checked out the Arkansas Times article, and saw no reason to suspect possible conflicts of interest or appearances of impropriety; unless I'm missing something here, it sounds like it was a dumb move politically and governmentally, but there was nothing unseemly.  That is, it sounds more like Michael Dukakis' "Willie Horton" problem than political corruption (except for those who consider any disagreement they have with an elected official's public characterization of events to be evidence of that official's corruption.) 70.88.233.70 18:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Links
"Negative" links keep getting deleted without explanation.24.18.44.64 22:30, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Early Years
Need citations badly. --Scaife 12:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Reclaiming America
Citation Here: http://www.reclaimamerica.org/PAGES/CONFERENCES/RAC2006/default.aspThuranX 01:21, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

++++++++++++++++

Information in Early Years Section also appears in periodical Current Biography, November 2005 139.78.177.30 16:12, 7 March 2006 (UTC)Durden1186@hotmail.com

Health Advocacy and Personal Weight-Loss
There doesn't seem to be much mention of his actions promoting anti-obesity stuff, although that's the only reason I've heard of him. Does anyone else think there should be more on this? 128.189.131.157 06:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right. Right now, there's only a one-sentence parenthetical summary in the "Other Accomplishments" section.  That could be expanded into a full paragraph in that section.  - Maximusveritas 06:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I switched things around a bit. Gov. Huckabee's weight-loss deserves a more prominent role on his page than just the little footnotes & fun-facts.  It was a profound moment in his life, both in personal and policy terms as well.  Not only does losing 110 pounds through diet and exercise say something about a person, but as a governor, it has also shaped his political goals of reforming Arkansas health-care.  I didn't source or cite the new information--sorry about that.  If you're curious, the facts that I included were partly from what I've learned from C-SPAN and some CBS News web-interview that I saw him in over the past year or so.  I was just too lazy to track the acutal sources down.  Also, I ask everybody, would be appropriate to put a, "before," and "after," photo of Governor Huckabee for the wiki article?  Or would that be over-playing the weight-loss thing?  Thanks All!!  Larry


 * Thanks for your contribution Larry. I do agree that the weight-loss thing deserves more of a mention here. However, sources are mandatory.  If you need time to find sources, we can just put a tag in the meantime, but you do need to insert them eventually.  Also, you did appear to repeat some things that were already in the article, so I had to take those out.  Note that you can't just copy and paste information from other sources, you have to rewrite it in your own words. Let me know if you have any questions Maximusveritas 04:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I have not been involved with this article up to this point (and I'm short on time at the moment), so I leave this link for you guys to decide whether it has a place. NY Times Article on Huckabee's weightloss

HUckabee's statements that jewish kidnappers who put him in a concentration camp should be added either to this section or to 'controversies'. []. ThuranX 01:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

WP:BLP
Editors should review the policy on living persons.

In particular:


 * Editors should remove any controversial material about living persons that is either unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Reliable sources, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source. In cases where the information is derogatory and poorly sourced or unsourced, this kind of edit is an exception to the three-revert rule.

If you want to add something negative, it's your responsibility to make sure it's sourced and NPOV. If you don't, by policy it should (and if I'm around will) be removed wholesale any number of times. A.J.A. 21:14, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have to caution you, you're quite clearly announcing you've got a bias and an agenda here, and should be careful not to become uncivil with editors seeking to add legitimate criticisms of the subject. ThuranX 21:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Advising you of a policy you are violating is not uncivil. I have clearly announced I intend to follow content policies; labeling this "a bias and an agenda" is itself getting close to incivility. In any case, please review the policy. Further, you should be aware that removals of this kind of material are not subject to the WP:3RR, but additions of it are. A.J.A. 21:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Certain editors appear to still not understand the WP:BLP policy:


 * The views of critics should be represented if their views are relevant to the subject's notability and are based on reliable sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to side with the critics' material. (emph. added)

Condescending to partially follow one part of a policy (after putting up a huge fight) does not license you to violate the rest of the policy. Incidentally, the text does not follow the source policy. E.g., "a group of convicts whom many believe are innocent of the crimes of which they are accused." is sourced to "Free the West Memphis Three", hardly an acceptible source. Even apart from this, it remains biased in tone: "an error-filled e-mail", etc.

Furthermore, the lengthy (and from what I read biased) West Memphis Three article does not include the text "Huckabee". Where's the notability? A.J.A. 18:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If you don't think it's good enough, fix it so it is. This repeated deletion thing is getting tiresome. Editors fix it, you find fault, and delete, it gets fixed more, you still find fault. Since you're the only one who can find your own high standard, bring it up to that point. Further, citing that another article isn't up to snuff hardly validates removals at this article.ThuranX 00:41, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm a full-blooded conservative Republican myself, and even I think this is getting tiresome. We went through this same thing on the Condoleezza Rice article over the summer, and when it comes down to it, WP:BLP is not sufficient grounds to remove well-cited criticism such as this.  Repeated deletion of such legitimate, validated, and factual criticisms only comes across as lacking NPOV on your part.  Whether or not this is actually the case, it gives you the appearance of being a Huckabee supporter who is trying to stretch every little rule in order to keep legitimate criticism of your favorite candidate off the page, and that would be called having a biased agenda.  The sources that the West Memphis Three criticism section cites are completely legitimate and inherently relevant to the Criticism section of this article.  To assert otherwise is, by nature, fallacious. --Ai.kefu 03:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I explained with specific citation of policy and specific quotations from the paragraph in question. Your accusations of partisanship are uncivil, and your claim in the edit summary that "It was FULLY cited" was demonstratedly false when you made it.

Your claim that I bear any responsibility to "fix it" is alse clearly wrong per policy:


 * "The responsibility for justifying controversial claims in Wikipedia, of all kinds, but especially for living people's bios, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person making the claim." (emph. original)

If you want it included it is "firmly" your responsibility to fix it. Speculating as to my motives does not license you to start ignoring basic content policies.

Although it's slightly better now, it still takes the critics' side and still gives undue weight. A.J.A. 19:49, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Your objection on the grounds that it 'takes the critics' side' is spurious on its face. Given it's subject matter, there is NO way to submit the information without mentioning that many were critical of Huckabee. That's why it is in the 'Criticisms' section. If you can source something properly which states that millions were overjoyed by Huckabee's actions, please do. But this is gettign ridiculously frustrating. Multiple editors continue to try to meet your standards, we met your intial complaints, and now your only reply to specific issues is to cite WP:BLP in a general way, and refer back to earlier issues, many, if not all of which were addressed since by editors acting to work towards gettign the information in. Yet you still stand in the way. However, the difference now is that you cannot now provide specific objections. Please do. I will hold off reverting until you do, within reason. ThuranX 23:06, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Contrary to what you seem to think, mentioning a critic and making that critic's case are two different things. One is permitted (and is what the article does in the case of all other criticism), the other is not permitted, yet seems to be precisely your goal. Any serious editor should know the difference. You not only elide over it but make patently unfounded declarations of spuriousness, and then false claims that my objections have already been addressed. I have a history of leaving proper criticism untouched and adding neutral information, but you have no history of adding anything but criticism. Your assumption of good faith has almost run out. A.J.A. 18:41, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, let's work on this. Here is the paragraph as it stands, after editing:
 * "While Huckabee has been, on the one hand, criticised for the clemency he has granted to criminals during his tenure[17], he has, on the other hand, also been criticised for refusing to reopen investigation into the well-known case of the West Memphis Three (CrimeLibrary profile), a group of convicts whom many believe are innocent of the crimes of which they are accused.[18] During Gov. Huckabee's administration (and since then, as well), there has been a notable movement amongst politicians and celebrities to press for the reopening of the West Memphis Three case. Noteworthy supporters of the "Free the West Memphis Three" cause include Jack Black, Jello Biafra, Marilyn Manson, Winona Ryder, Tom Waits, South Park creator Trey Parker, and former President Bill Clinton (also a former Arkansas governor), who has called it a "troubling case."[19] Two major films have since been released documenting the situation, including an Emmy award-winning documentary on the WM3 case, which aired in the 1990's. Huckabee himself has had little to say on the matter, though the Governor's office did, on March 23, 2003, send out an e-mail to address the matter, which claimed that DNA evidence had conclusively linked the WM3 to their accused crimes and that HBO's documentary was actually fiction.[20] DNA testing for the case has never been completed and test results have never been released,[21] and had the HBO documentary been a "fictionalized account," it would have been disqualified for the Emmy for "Outstanding Achievement in Informational Programming," which it won in 1997 alongside a National Geographic Special.[22] Huckabee's office thereafter refused to comment on the matter.[23]"
 * Let's start with the initial foundation at the outset by all of us acknowledging that the West Memphis Three case is both a nationally and internationally well-known situation that is inherently relevant to a comprehensive discussion of Michael Huckabee's tenure as Governor of Arkansas. That is a straight fact, bare to the bone, that does not include any editorializing or POV.  It is completely NPOV.  So, now that we have established that the WM3 is worth being documented on the Mike Huckabee Wikipedia article, how do we address the topic in a way that is NPOV?  To AJA particularly, what would you like to see removed from the WM3 paragraph to make it NPOV, and in what specific way is each of the things you would like to see removed POV?  Please respond to this without making vague statements about an overall negative tone or loose, general references to the WP:BLP article. --Ai.kefu 01:29, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Demanding that I agree to something and then declaring it "established" is hardly a useful procedure. Now here's a straight, NPOV fact for you: a Google test of "'West Memphis Three' Huckabee" returns 507 results, which is practically nothing. Also I had a look through the blog entries on the Daily Kos with the keyword "Mike Huckabee". Quite a few harsh words, none related to the West Memphis Three. So that's empirical evidence against notability. I'll admit notability if you can provide greater evidence to the contrary (and that doesn't mean simply declaring that you have it). A.J.A. 19:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * UH, no. NO wikilawyering this. Your initial objections were to POV. We fixed that, you objected to sources, we fixed that. We are NOT going to run down the entire litany of possible objections and jump through hoops for you. Further, claiming you edit to neutrality and i edit to criticism only and thus am NOT operating in good faith is intersting, because MY perception is that I edit to neutrality, and YOU edit to a PRO-Huckabee stance. As such, holding out that I'm not operating in good faith is as bad as if i were to say, you're just a dick. I haven't done that. I won't BE doing that any time soon. You're not being fair, as I see it, but you're trying to edit the page in a generally good faith manner, even if I oppose your stance on this. However, as I've said before, if all you can do is ratchet up the hostility here, go right ahead. I'll just keep fixing this. Now, as I've said before, it's time for you to actually CONTRIBUTE, rather than delete, dig in your heels, and insult others. can you help or not? Ai.kefy has made a serious attempt here, and your response was a blatant dig at him. Further, GHits isn't the only means of establishign notability, and there are a number of policies and debates on Wikipedia about it's efficacy. Any number of topics are more likely to be covered in scholarly journals, or be of 'notability' within a limited field. 507 unique Ghits, by the way, is often considered notable. That said, it's notable, and we all would like it far more if you acted in a positive, wikibuilding manner ,instead of continuing to delete, insult, and refuse to assist. ThuranX 21:39, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You're misrepresenting the history of the discussion. I objected to both the POV and the lack of sources. You never attempted to fix anything; you've merely reinserted the same flawed text, often with edit summaries that made false claims. Two others made insufficient attempts, for which you can claim no credit, but an insufficient attempt at creating a suitable text is still an unsuitable text.


 * You have added only negative material. This fact may or may not be "interesting" juxtaposed to your (claimed) self-perception as editing toward neutrality, but it remains fact.


 * The 507 number is merely pages with the text I searched for. Of the ones I saw, most were appeals for a letter on their behalf. Which makes the criticism far less notable than even 507 would indicate. You ignore the other test. Let me suggest yet another one: find an article covering his Presidential campaign that mentions it. See, I'm helping you make your case, if the case is there to be made.


 * If it should be included, it doesn't need to follow policy better than previous versions, it needs to follow content policy, period. No matter how much you'd really really like to take the critic's side, it's not "wikilawyering" to point out that you're not allowed to. A.J.A. 22:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * AJA, If we are going to take Google Searches into account to judge how "notable" a controversy is, then let's go over to the Wikipedia article of another Republican presidential candidate with a big "Criticisms/controversies" section, that of Rudy Giuliani. Giuliani's Wikipedia article gives an entire section to two particular controversies surrounding Giuliani's tenure in public office.  Namely, the gun control lawsuit controversy and the Brooklyn Art Museum controversy.  When I Google "'brooklyn art museum' giuliani," I come up with 421 results.  When I Google "'gun control lawsuit' giuliani," I come up with 17 results on only 4 different websites (one of those websites being the Rudy Giuliani Wikipedia article itself).  So, are these two controversies notable enough to warrant having their own section header on the Rudy Giuliani page?  If not, then I'd like to see you take the same kind of interest in protecting Rudy's Wikipage from such "POV editorializing" as you do with your candidate of choice, Mike Huckabee.
 * Now, I'm assuming that, as someone who likely is in favor of Mike Huckabee for the presidential nomination, you don't want to have to also go through all of Huckabee's potential rivals and delete all the criticisms that Google less than 500 hits for them also, so let's get right to the point. The West Memphis Three situation is one that IS notable, if the cadre of big-name celebrities (and even a former President) hasn't provided evidence enough.  Virtually any criminal justice course you will take in college, if it addresses false convictions or coerced confessions or wrongful imprisonments or anything of the sort, will cite the West Memphis Three case as a key example.  It's extremely well known.  It has an Emmy-award winning documentary that was done on it.  There is no issue over whether it's a notable case.  Huckabee definitely has something to do with the case, as the article which the WM3 paragraph cites shows that Huckabee's office has directly addressed it and that Huckabee's office made two significant erroneous claims about the case and then refused to comment after the claims were disproven.  Huckabee has been criticised many times for his refusal to reopen investigation into the case, if the thousands upon thousands of letters sent to Huckabee's office on the matter aren't evidence enough.  Do you want me to go through and find every single webpage that shows someone criticising Huckabee for his lack of action in the matter?  What will it take to avoid an edit war here and convince you that, at the very least, the WM3 situation is worth discussing on this Wikipedia article.  At the very least, it deserves to be noted in some way or another on the Mike Hucakbee article.  If we can at least agree on this premise, then maybe we can work out a way to present the issue without it seeming POV.  Can we at least agree on this?  --Ai.kefu 04:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

asking me to prove or disprove a negative is a debate argument fallacy tactic i won't rise to. Contribute or stay out of it. It's notable, it's been sourced, and since your'e uninterested in helping, I see no reason not to replace it. ThuranX 22:30, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I never asked you to prove a negative. You keep resorting to misrepresentations because that's all you have. A.J.A. 18:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX asserts in his edit summary: Objecting editor chose to not reply to lengthy post explaining notability I take it this is a reference to the last one from Ai.kefu. Unfortunately he doesn't explain notability, he merely asserts it and then demands I agree with him. I've suggested a way you could demonstrate notability. Then it would still have to be neutral and properly-sourced. Yes, it has to be notable and NPOV and sourced -- if "jumping" through those "hoops" is as impossible as you say it doesn't belong here. A.J.A. 22:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, Ai.kefu gave you a long reply about the notability issue. Please reply to that issue. ThuranX 22:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I explicitly mention, and dismiss, Ai.kefu's reply. You respond with "Actually, Ai.kefu gave you a long reply..." as if I had ignored it or denied its existence, right under my discussion of it. At this point it appears you are no longer even attempting a serious discussion. A.J.A. 18:57, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, all you do IS dismiss ai.kefu. You don't explain or reply to him at all. You effectively say 'I'm choosing not to see ai.kefu's arugment at all, since it says things I do not want to see'. The criticism of Huckabee is valid. It is notable, as substantiated by Ai.kefu. It has been sourced extensively now, and any and all 'colorful' words were removed already. There no longer exists ANY reasons you can substantiate for not including it. I will give you some time to compile a valid, lengthy, clear point by point reply in wich to explain any remaining issues. If you cannot, or do not, then the information will go back in. ThuranX 21:42, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You need to stop playing games. You both have yet to demonstrate the notability of the criticism, and have yet to produce a neutral text which cites reliable sources (as opposed to "Free the West Memphis Three").


 * Your ultimatum is out of line: you have yet to behave acceptably or add any acceptable content. A.J.A. 20:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You need to discount all the evidence of notability that Ai.kefu presents. that's it. ThuranX 21:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think AJA's refusal to compromise or be reasonable has severely damaged his credibility as an editor of the Criticisms section on the Mike Huckabee Wikipedia page. He has had two weeks to make a single reply to our arguments and has not been able to do so.  I am hereby re-adding the much toned-down paragraph on the WM3 issue to the Mike Huckabee article.  If the paragraph is deleted, I will re-add it.  We have established that the WM3 issue paragraph is inherently relevant to this article and that it in no way crosses any boundaries or breaks any Wikipedia rules.  Any removal of such information will be treated as vandalism.  If we have to bring administrators into this debate, so be it--I will take full responsibility for it.  --Ai.kefu 20:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If you want to compare who has more credibility as an editor, let's just ask who added the original form, who said "it's all straight facts", and who has never admitted that its removal was both necessary and good? You. You've done nothing but push your POV and have given no sign of knowing what the boundaries are or caring what the rules say. A.J.A. 21:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You are avoiding the issues to focus primarily on personal attacks against the editors. Deleting this well-sourced, inherently relevant, and NPOV paragraph is equal to vandalism, and it will be treated as such.  --Ai.kefu 21:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You take it upon yourself to pass judgement on who lacks credibility, I point out all the processed-sand-like qualities of your house, and now I'm making personal attacks? Those "personal attacks" are all facts. If pointing out undeniable facts feels like an attack, what does that tell you about yourself?


 * In any case, I must warn you that your addition of (still, after all this time) poorly-sourced, biased, irrelevent material IS NOT exempt from the 3RR, but removals still are. Be cautious. A.J.A. 21:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I have supported the re-addition of the section as well, by restoring it. AJA had weeks to deal with this, to respond and help constructively build this article. Instead, he avoided it. Now, in response to Ai.kefu, he insists that ... well, something about sand and houses... anyways, he doesn't like it and won't let it in. He attacks us for requesting his participation, yet insists it is we who obstruct the article. This combative behavior is frustrating, and mildly insulting. This is becoming tiresome. The section will stay in, unless sufficient specific criticism with supporting evidence is provided. AJA, all I'm really hearing from you is that you personally object to Mike Huckabee being so clearly and specifically criticized. Regardless of your feelings, we've established notability, cited the section heavily, and edited to be NPOV, as much so as can reasonably be done when reporting on the criticisms of Huckabee by others. Please either provide the specific critiques and evidences requested above, and  before, or stop trying to alter the article. Thank you.ThuranX 22:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

(Undent) The editor in opposition to the criticism has once again chosen to remove the content, while ignoring and disrespecting the editors working here on the Talk page. As such, it is blanking vandalism, and will be treated as such. ThuranX 21:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW
Some parts of the article are plagiarized from here. A.J.A. 19:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you demonstrate that Wikipedia editors plagarised that site by use of dates of edits/publication, or is it equally possible they lifted content from Wikipedia? ThuranX 21:36, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * A comparison of the site, last edited 4 Jun 2006 by a user calling himself Radar, to this 3 Jun 2006 Wikipedia version shows that that site plagarized wikipedia, not us plagarising them. ThuranX 18:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Reiterations
Lest anyone say I haven't bent over backwards to notify ThuranX and Ai.kefu of their multiple violations, I will now reiterate what has already been said and not addressed (and by "addressed", I mean fixed, not argued about). In place of resolving the issues, I have seen immediate and repeated resorts to incivility and ad hominem arguments; they have refused to use the Talk page constructively, yet ThuranX feels that my decision to avoid answering his uncivil remarks puts me in the wrong. I leave it to uninvolved parties to decide which is worse, answering substantive posts with invective, or answering rude comments with nothing.

Notability -- Still not demonstrated. Ai.kefu demonstrated the notability of the case, but this isn't AfD, it's an article about someone who appears only marginally related. What's needed is proof that the criticism is notable, not a ramble about the case and demands I agree with him. WP:BLP says: "If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article." Prove that isn't the case.

Sources -- "Free the West Memphis Three" isn't a reliable source.

Bias -- The paragraph, still, even after the latest attempt to make it less biased (by someone other than ThuranX and Ai.kefu, which was also the case in all previous attempts) appears to side with the critics and gives it undue weight. The version ThuranX kept reinserting was quit obviously biased.

P.S. The comment above about plagiarism had nothing to do with the dispute at hand despite ThuranX's false claims elsewhere. A.J.A. 20:48, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Despite A.J.A.'s attempts to portray himself as some amazing defender, the simple fact is he long ago abandoned the talk page. His evaluation of ai.kefu here is only slightly less dismissive than his outright 'i dismiss it', the first time around. The notability has been demonstrated over and over, it's cited more and more, and still he continues to insist his candidate of choice can do no wrong. He has used up all my WP:AGF on this. He won't actually talk about it. Ultimately, his opinion, as repeatedly hinted at is nothing more than 'it makes huckabee look bad, thus it's biased'. He's admitted he won't let it on the page no matter what before, so I don't see any reason to assume good faith any more with this editor, on this issue. ThuranX 21:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Prior to this comment, my most recent comment on the Talk page was on the 15th, while yours was on the 17th and consisted of an uncivil false accusation . Two of them, actually; first, that I was refusing to use Talk (when, in fact, my most recent post had been on the same day as your most recent post), and second the vandalism one.


 * Again, I want to give you every opportunity to withdraw your incendiary comments, both the numerous ones made previously and this misrepresentation of the history of this matter. And, I should add, your false accusation that I "insist his candidate of choice can do no wrong", and that "He's admitted he won't let it on the page no matter what before", both of which are simply false.


 * You also misrepresent yourself as just now deciding not to assume good faith; in fact, as others can readily confirm, your first comment here was an accusation that I was acting from "a bias and an agenda", which was followed, incredibly, by an admonition to be civil. And that, let me remind you, was in defense of this.


 * Unfortunately, bringing this again to Talk has been greeted the way I (pessimistically) expected: you refuse to fix or even discuss the issues, instead continuing the behaviors I appealed to you to stop. A.J.A. 21:53, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * You won't make clear the issues beyond buzzwords. be clear, be specific. That's all I've asked, repeatedly. You refuse to. It is that simple. ai.kefu asked you to interact. you refused. Your constant reply it 'it's biased against huckabee, BLP' then you revert it out. It's pointless to try to interact with you. You don't interact back. you say things like "I already said it, go fix it'. We ask you WHAT needs fixing, you say, I told you.' We look ,and we're back to 'it's biased against huckabee, BLP'. You need to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR about what is so horribly BIASED. I've said it before. Criticisms don't make people look good. That's WHY they are CRITICISMS. He's a candidate for President. To NOT include sourced items posited by his detractors would be to whitewash him. You keep trying to do that. I keep stopping you. It's that simple, unless you can clearly point out WHAT sections of this criticism are so biased? And you can't. If you could,you would have by now, I've asked before. repeatedly. You could avoid all this percieved incivility by me if you'd done that. You won't. You attack me, edit war, then protest. Frankly, I don't think you can be neutral about him.
 * THIS IS MY FINAL APPEAL TO YOU. BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT IS BIASED IN THIS SECTION. Do it or don't, you know what your silence this far has wrought. It can go on and on like this, or you can COMMUNICATE. ThuranX 22:02, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not much time before I've got to go, but not much substance to reply to. You obviously don't agree with me that it's biased, but, if we're already making personal comments, you didn't think this was biased either, so your judgement appears a little clouded; you could demonstrate otherwise by making your case, but simply asserting that I haven't interacted when clearly I have, both now and previously, doesn't cut it. It could be construed as dishonesty.


 * But please, for your own sake, step back, calm down, and reconsider whether you might not want to retract your uncivil comments and misrepresentations. A.J.A. 22:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * As I just stated on the talk page of ThuranX, I understand the frustration on both sides. In this case, the burden of proof lies with the  member attempting to add information.  If "reputable" sources can be cited on this issue, then there should be mention - properly cited per wiki-standards.  Please stop the editing war, and instead move to provide a NPOV section that meets the requirements above.  As an aside, because this is a heated editing war, I am chocing no sides here, rather laying out what needs to be done to bridge this gap.  I have seen the same situation on other pages.  I hope this can be resolved quickly.  Until then, in all fairness, the NPOV tag will be posted.  Thanks - Eisenmond 22:24, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I've taken this to AN/I. I'm tired of dealing with it here, and posted there that I will not be on the page nor the talk for 24 hours. There's no amount of sources that would satisfy AJA, there's no way to report it without AJA feeling it's biased against Huckabee, and so I'll step back, walk away, and let others sort this out for a while. But for now, I'm done for 24 hours. After that, we'll see what's transpired. ThuranX 22:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks to me as if almost every sentence in that paragraph is sourced. After Eisenmond put up the NPOV tag (which I agree with until this is settled) A.J.A. simply removed it all again. I restored it because I, as I said, it seems sourced to my eyes. IrishGuy talk 23:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, every sentence is sourced and cited, however, the sources must be reliable and verifiable perWiki Guideline. The sources cited are a blog, a broken link, a movie review page, etc.  Please perform research on the issue and include a reputable source, such as a national or state paper, TV news report, etc.  Blogs are considered "Original Research" and stray from Wiki guidelines.  Thanks for being patient on this situation, and thanks for the fair editing that I trust is to come :) - Eisenmond 03:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Crimelibrary.com is neither a blog, nor a broken link. Mikehuckabee.com isn't a broken link either. The IMDB is used as a reference for the documentaries...and yes, IMDB is used as a reliable reference. So basically, the only link you could possibly have a problem with is http://wm3.org and that doesn't warrant blanking the entire paragraph. IrishGuy talk 20:04, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Mikehuckabee.com is a personal website, not a verifiable / reputable source. Referencing the documentaries only proves that they exist, not that the incident is accurate as written.  And yes, the other which was listed is broken.  I have stepped into this as a moderator.  Do not accuse me of blanking, as I am fairly removing the disputed content until verifiable sources can be cited to support all of the claims made in the paragraph.   - Eisenmond 20:10, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not part of the content dispute. I stepped to look it over because ThuranX was asking for help all over Wikipedia. From what I can see, both IMDB and Crimelibrary.com are valid sources, neither of which are broken links (see here and here. The MikeHuckabee site may be a personal site, but as a source it is reprinting articles from ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE which are valid. www.wm3.org is a site which archives various legal documents pertenent to the case. How are any of these links POV and unverifiable? IrishGuy talk 21:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * If that is the case, perhaps changing the citation sources to the Gazette, and finding a wm3 link that is not broken would end this debate. As I have said, I am not part of this editing war.  I took action because the content in dispute was re-added by you without making changes suggested in the talk section that could help end this one.  I was also asked by ThuranX to help moderate this issue because I questioned the nature of the back and forth POV editing.  If we cite a more neutral source, such as the gazzette, then the inclusion cannot be debated, perhaps but for the wording.  I have looked at the mikehuckabee.com site and it is a very anti-huckabee site, which may be what is at the heart of this contest...again, of which I am not a part.  Thanks for your help in stepping in here.  It is greatly appreciated, and I am sure that the two editors can take our advice and move forward amicably.  Thanks - Eisenmond 21:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Primary sources would be preferable. I would imagine the legal briefs found on wm3.org could be found elsewhere (although I understand initially linking to that site as it is convenient to have them all in one place). Mikehuckabee.com, I believe, is anti-huckabee and as such a better primary source should be used. I am not very familiar with the Arkansas paper so I'm not sure how much they archive online. Possibly it could be cached from Google or archive.org. Hopefully this would be something ThuranX would be willing to look into. As an aside, I used the term "blanking" in that you removed the content, I didn't mean it with any connotations of vandalism. I apologize, as it is my fault that I didn't choose a better term with less negative connotations within it. I meant you no disrespect. IrishGuy talk 21:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to comment on the Crime Library cite as a source. In the most recent version of the disputed text it first appears here:


 * "he has also been criticized for refusing to reopen investigation into the case of the West Memphis Three,[20]"

The "[20]" being a footnote linking here. The first (admitedly minor) problem is that it takes us to the first part but the part sourcing the text is here. More seriously, what it actually says is:


 * On March 31, 2000, the Arkansas Times reported that Edward Mallett, counsel representing Damien Echols, had accused Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee of making false statements regarding his clients’ case.


 * Mallett told the paper that a false statement regarding DNA evidence in the case was made via an e-mail issued from the Governors’ office.

Which isn't quite what the article says. It's unclear what it does say, however. Is he saying Huckabee himself wrote the e-mail? Is he saying Huckabee should keep a tighter rein on his staff? Hire some fact-checkers so nobody in his office sends out mistaken e-mails? The first would appear very unlikely and definitely jumping to conclusions, the latter two are more reasonable but assume he was speaking imprecisely. Any way you read this, using this as a source involves some interpretation on the part of editors.

I also searched the WM3 site. The closest I found to what would be needed is this, which isn't quite it.

What we need is a reliable source saying "so-and-so [who would have to be reasonably notable relative to the case] accused Huckabee of failing the cause of justice by not reopening..." Of course it doesn't have to be that exact wording. I've been harping on notability: finding a clear, reliable source would demonstrate notability, and I'm not sure I would accept anything else. A.J.A. 21:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Ancestry
Would someone mind adding this link which goes into detail about his ancestry. http://countyhistorian.com/cecilweb/index.php/Michael_Huckabee Thanks Wjhonson 06:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That link is to a small, non-notable wiki-tree with a fairly large amount of unsoured ino, and speculation. Further, it would be trivia here. As such, it doesn't belong on the page.ThuranX 00:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)For clarification: The biggest citation problem there is the reliance upon OWT to tie the Huckabees back beyond the fifth gen. OWT isn't a reliable source. If you could provide primary sources for that descendancy, through church records, land grants, or records of wills and testaments, it might stand up. Otherwise, it descends into a vanity piece. Further, even that OWT citation being circumnavigated would only suppport the 6th generation, and not that lineage to royalty which is stuck to the bottom. Either way, its' trivia, and now that I think more upon it, it probably violates WP:BLP. ThuranX 01:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree with part of your characterization. The information is not unsourced, in fact it's very well sourced using census, marriage indexes, death indexes, cemetery records, etc.  The page does not "rely" upon OWT, it mentions it in passing.  I get the feeling you skimmed it very rapidly, can you return and examine each document posted?  I'm not sure how you ignored the census postings. Thanks. Wjhonson 02:11, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I didn't ignore any of it. It relies upon the OneWorldTree Citation to move past the 5th generation and thus 'tie' it to the royal lineage. As such, that citation would never hold up to any serious genealogical examination, and is pretty much someone else's spec cited as a fact. In light of that, all we have is an average american heritage, which isn't notable, and would be essentially trivia. If you can demonstrate a line of similar tradesmen, that would be worht noting. 'Huckabee comes from a long line of polar bear wrestlers/coal miners/farmers/turkey wrasslers'. But a lineage isn't appropriate. Thanks. ThuranX 02:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The information on his parents isn't trivia. Most biographies have some information on a person's parents.  You seem to be hung up on the royal ancestry connection, I don't have any idea why.  That's fairly speculative.  The main point of the link is not the ending, it's the beginning.  It's not cited as a fact, it says quite plainly that it's speculation, based on a OWT entry. Can you focus on the issue of whether the information on his *parents* and *grandparents* should be part of the biography? Wjhonson 05:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Your source engages in speculation. That means it's not up to the standards of WP:RS. It's that simple. If you can find alternate sources for RELEVANT information about his parents, you can add it, I've already answered that above. ThuranX 21:44, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

That isn't policy. We do not discard sources when a minor part of the source engages in speculation. You have yet to address any issue about his parents. Michael Huckabee spontaneously appears on stage at age 30 or so. That is not a biography. Biographies include details about a person from birth to death, not from middle-age. Wjhonson 21:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know how much you actually know about genealogy, despite the claims made on your userpage, but if they are true, you're fully aware of how genealogy should not rely upon speculation, especially ungrounded, unreasoned speculation, which is what OWT gives us there. Further, the agenda of the entire site is documenting royal descendancy, so the idea that the researchers there would try to tie famous people into royal families is a more than reasonable one. As such, putting an agenda ahead of good research isn't a sign of good scholarship. Finally, I note that the entire page seems to be YOUR research. As such, I'd suggest your advocacy is dangerously close to moving beyond suggesting a good addition to the page, into a personal pro-addition bias. The mage has supposition and speculation. That calls it into doubt. Find articles about Huckabee, citiing his family history's influence on his positionss on the issues, or his drive to work in politics, and I'll gladly accept them. However, this link isn't going to improve the page. ThuranX 22:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Again you focus on one minor part of the article to the exclusion of all the rest of the well-sourced information on his family. Why?  Perhaps you have a particular axe to grind against genealogy research?  Perhaps you feel that a person's family has no bearing whatever on who they are?  All biographies go into some detail about a person's family... except this one?  And that seems normal to you?  The genealogy on his parents does not rely on ANY speculation.  None. Zero. Zilch. None.  Can we focus on his PARENTS now?  Or are you going to again try to mislead by insisting the page is full of speculation, when only the very *ending* of that page has any speculation at all.  Again, the vast majority of the page is accurate, and based on documents which are cited and extracted.  That part of the page is useful here. Wjhonson 22:13, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And I quote from teh page in question: "All of the above needs confirmation, it's only speculation at this point." There's reason enough to prevent it's addition. ThuranX 22:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the use of the word "ALL" there is confusing. ALL does not mean "this *entire* page", All means "this SECTION of the page".  That is, the ending of the page, not the whole page. Just the ending.  Is that more clear? Wjhonson 07:22, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * (Edit Conflict)In fact, I'm going to go one step further. NINE random pages I clicked were all entirely written by you at that site. As such, I'm sure there's a Spam/COI type thing going on here. Fully oppose the page being included, Fully support good sourced references to Huckabee's family life influencing his policies and positions. ThuranX 22:15, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You're actually going to argue that there is some person somewhere, whose family has not influenced who they are ? By the way his "policies and positions" is not this article.  This article is about Michael Huckabee.  All of him.  Not just his "policies and positions".  Perhaps you're unfamiliar with how biographies are writen, but trying to focus it on one small aspect of his life is not a biography. Wjhonson 22:17, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * OK. Fine. It violates WP:OR. It's your own research and your own speculation. It does not belong. Thank you. I have provided reasonable options for you for this aspect of Huckabee's biography. You aren't interested in actually expanding the article, You're interested in hyping your own Wikisite. ThuranX 22:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Now that we've passed that hurdle ;) As to OR, you should be aware that OR is *not* forbidden on wikipedia.  The OR that we forbid, is OR *by* a Wikipedian, which they attach to an article.  A Wikipedia is absolutely free to do OR, and by the way, any other person (a non-Wikipedia) is as well, and we *can* cite that work in any article.  What's forbidden is for a Wikipedian to cite their *own* OR in an article.  Which is why I posted this section in the first place here instead of just modding the article myself. Wjhonson 22:32, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, then, I guess we've solved it. You admit you asked other wikipedians to post your OR, since you think that would satisfy avoiding OR. It doesn't. OR is OR. Further, you are a wikipedian, using your own OR. Using assumed technicalities like asking someoen else to be your meatpuppet for this edit aren't allowed either. ThuranX 22:35, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but that's not correct. You are welcome to take your issue to WP:ATT and ask there.  And this request is not to use a meatpuppet.  The issue of a Wikipedian doing source-based research has come up numerous times and this is the acceptable behaviour.  You are welcome to check the archives of WP:NOR on this subject to familiarize yourself with how we approach this. Wjhonson 22:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * WP:ATT seems to cover this. Still a big no. I've taken this issue to AN/I. ThuranX 22:40, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * seems to be a straight forward breach of WP:ATT, at the present moment, while that site uses wiki software, it actually just operates as Wjhonson website as I cannot find a single edit or entry that is not by his hand. That site should not be used as a souce. --Fredrick day 22:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

The link to AN/I is [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Original_research_and_linkspam_on_Talk:Mike_Huckabee. here]. I've responded citing the NOR archives, which addresses the very issue of wikipedians doing research. Wjhonson 22:51, 7 March 2007 (UTC)


 * The link, where you *should* have complained, I have created for you here at WP:ATT which is where complaints of this nature go. Feel free to comment there as well if you like. Wjhonson 23:18, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion
Personally, I think that a posited royal link is non-notable trivia and may count as WikiSpam. There's neutrality and cleanup to be worried about more, in my opinion.  bibliomaniac 1  5  00:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking the time to review the materials here. I greatly appreciate your efforts. ThuranX 00:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I probably don't know enough about the background and the political situation in the US, but why is this such a big deal? This was a question if an informative site that is operated by a Wikipedian would be helpful to the article. I see no breach of any policy, instead it's rather exemplary conduct in my opinion to suggest such a thing on the talk page for discussion. My naive opinion on the site is that it actually seems helpful and relevant, I'm not sure if it is reliable enough to add here, but I certainly don't see why User:Wjhonson was so aggressively attacked for suggesting his site for you to consider. It doesn't contain advertisement, it seems genuinely helpful, contains many useful links, and it clearly marks where the speculative section begins. I really fail to see the problem here, I mean I've seen WikiSpam and this doesn't look like it. --Merzul 00:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Small revision: the links aren't that useful since they all go through ancestry.com, so I can see some problems with this link; but I don't agree with accusations of WikiSpam. --Merzul 00:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you missed that the entire website seeks to add is wholly owned and controlled by him. As such, it fails WP:ATT at two points: WP:SYNT and WP:SELFPUB. Further, the page in question actually ADMITS to being Speculation, which is certainly a problem. ThuranX 03:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Thuran you're being disengenious. Saying you're seeking *neutral* opinions. One person who like you ignores all the content except the ending, you say "thank you". Another person who agrees that the site is useful or at least not objectionable and you argue with them. It's pretty apparent you're trying very hard to make your case. Again you ignore that wikipedians are allowed to do research, and again you ignore that the page is NOT Speculation. Only the *ending* of the page is speculation. The rest of the page is factual and documented. Why do you insist on constantly mischaracterizing what's on it? You have not one single time addressed the documented statements on that page. Wjhonson 06:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That's it. I've had it. I posted on WP:3O. I cannot control who comes here from there. And yes, I've got a case to make. And Oh NO! I have manners. I acknowledged BOTH editors' contributions. If you can't accept that the first Third Opinion agreed with me outrigth, and the seconds' STILL not sure if it's worth including, questioning notability, and the ease of verifiability. Why can't you accept that there's a compromise otu there? Instead, every time I suggest a simpe prose inclusion to the page ,you belittle and attack me as an idiot who somehow naively thinks people spontaneously mature in a bubble without parental influence, as if that's some grounds for inclusion. I told you. Find CITED SOURCES TYING HIS HERITAGE TO HIS PROFESSIONAL CAREER! That would be a worthy way to include his heritage and not fill the page with dubious external links or ridiculous charts. You still can't address that, and are now stooping to implied insult. ThuranX 06:57, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I advise both parties to progress to the next dispute resolution step-take a step back for a little bit and have a cool down. Certainly this is not an issue worth becoming uncivil over. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * What "simple prose inclusion" ? I have no idea what you're talking about. And again this page isn't about whether his hertage is tied to his professional career. It's about his heritage, period.  Every biography discusses a person's family at some level... except this one.  No mention of his childhood at all.  That's not a biography.  If this article were titled "Mike Huckabee's Policies" that would be one thing, but it's not, it's titled "Mike Huckabee" that covers all of him.  Not just his policies, not just his career, but his entirety.  His parents, spouse, children, dogs, and his policies. That's a biography.  Bio meaning "life" not "career". Wjhonson 07:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And, I have yet to hear any sort of compromise offered by you, so what compromise are you offering then? Wjhonson 07:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In re-reading the entire above discussion, I noticed that you may be confused by the use of the phrase "all of the above is speculation". This phrase, at the end of the page refers only to the *last section* of the page.  It does not refer to the remainder of the page.  Perhaps you thought it referred to the entire page.  The parents, grandparents and great-grandparents are not speculation.  They are documented. It's the royal line, or at least part of it, that is speculation.  Only that section. Wjhonson 07:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've now modified the linked page to more specifically state exactly what is and isn't speculation. Wjhonson 07:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Man, are you deliberately ignoring what I've offered? I have REPEATEDLY given you a compromise offer. You just don't want it. You want to hype your PROFESSIONAL GENEALOGY WEBSITE. THE COMPROMISE, AGAIN IS: "Find articles about Huckabee, citing his family history's influence on his positions on the issues, or his drive to work in politics, and I'll gladly accept them.", Fully support good sourced references to Huckabee's family life influencing his policies and positions.[Fully support good sourced references to Huckabee's family life influencing his policies and positions.] Show influences of his Heritage on his career.. It's very simple. Find a written Prose source discussing his childhood, his relationships with his parents, and what effects that relationship, and those with his grandparents, had on him and made him the man he is. That can come in. Your own personal website, as found by both Fredrick day and Bibliomaniac15, however, is inappropriate. That's two outside opinions opposing the addition of your proposed page, as well as myself. Merzul's not sure if the page should be in or not, given the nature of the links, but isn't sure it's wikispam. I read that as 1 for it, 3 against it, 1 unsure but clarifying some points. Consensus on this appears to be against you, there's a reasonable compromise on the table allowing his family into the page with the standard WP:RS, but disallowing your personal website. You asked here if people would post it. You got an answer. You've spent a while trying to get people to NOT see it as your own site. The fact is, it IS your site. You got an answer. Please move on, find those other sources, and add a section or add to a section, with information about how his family life did and does affect Mike Huckabee. Thank you. ThuranX 12:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC) In addition, this link Wikipedia_talk:Attribution makes it clear your efforts aren't in compliance with policy. I guess we're done now. ThuranX 12:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Pretty much a no-brainer, it seems to me: citing as a source a page that one controls -- and which one can modify to say anything one pleases -- is a straightforward no-no for anything third-party. Unless User:Wjhonson is Mike Huckabee himself, no wriggle room there at all. --Calton | Talk 15:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Calton which is the entire reason I posted it here, instead of to the article. I'll go ahead later and post the underlying sources to the article since they are all third-party, reliable, and published.  And again to ThuranX who wants to constantly bring up whether his family affected his "positions", this isn't an article on Mike's "positions", it's an article on Mike. Wjhonson 16:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * And ThuranX contrary to your characterization, I posted to the link to this Talk page. That does not violate any policy.  I posted to WP:ATT and was reminded that we do this in the case of WP:COI not WP:NOR, which I had not remembered.  Your suggested "compromise" is no compromise at all, but only your desire to focus the biography on his policies to the exclusion of anything else. Wjhonson 17:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * NOt at all what I said. AGAIN: Find relevant third party WP:RS prose about his family life. find relevant third party WP:RS prose about his heritage and how that made him the man he is. If you say he was made into a regular churchgoer by his grandmam, who took him every week, and can cite it, then that's fine. I don't care if it talks about the character OR the policies, but I'm not letting you link or use your own website. Find articles where reporters went out and did human interest stories on 'who is mike huckabee?'/ Use them. Include the characterizations of his father's influences on his childhood development, on his critical thinking manner, on HOW he ties his damn shoes. But find reliable third party information that relates directly to the subject. A stale dry lineage is NOT particularly relevant. We rarely include Pedigrees, Genalogies, or Ahnentafels for BIographies on Wikipedia, even most royalties seem to have lineage pages as separate articles, although if I bothered to search, I'd bet there's a well researched 'How the presidents relate' article. Beyond that, no. This is the last time I will reply here about this issue, as my words fall on deaf ears. Find articles about his family and how the affected him. that's it. That's the compromise I offer, because I DO FULLY understand how family can shape a person. ThuranX 21:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thuran, I don't see the need for incivility or SHOUTING. That being said, though, I do agree to the point. Another wiki is not a reliable source, this is clearly attested to in WP:ATT and WP:RS. Wjohnson, in effect, what's done on the other wiki is your original synthesis of sources. However, that synthesis has not been peer-reviewed or fact-checked. What I might suggest is submitting your work to a newspaper, magazine, or some other source. If that source fact-checks the synthesis, finds it to be correct, and publishes it as an interest piece, we got ourselves a source! (They also usually throw you a few bucks for publishing rights, so that's not bad either.) But until that happens, we can't use it. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 21:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I have substituted italics for emphasis instead of using caps lock. As to the incivility, I don't feel any need to apologize for my reply. I have repeatedly offered him a compromise which achieves his stated principle, that family influences a person, yet avoids his COI/NOR problem. I cited those offers with links to the diffs above. Despite that, he continues to claim I never offered a compromise. I think that saying 'find Reliable Sources for his family interactions and how that's made him who he is' (paraphrasing myself), is a great compromise, as WJhonson continues to assert that family influences people. Further, we're up to about 7 people opposing this, Fredrick Day, Biblio, myself, You, Calton, 3 more users at the WP:ATT talk section for it, and one user who came in and offered comments and clarifications, but only WJhonson supporting it's inclusion, and yet he continues to argue about it as though no one's made the problems clear to him, nor offered other ways of dealing with it. I'm extremely frustrated by this, as it really is pushing into the 'I want to post links to my own site' territory now. Anyways, with 7 editors through four pages, (here, AN/I, WP:3O, and WP:ATT) all saying it's not a legit play, I'm sure this is over. I'm going to leave this page for a while, and let things settle. ThuranX 22:18, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ThuranX you keep trying to steer the conversation toward, that we need some sort of *proof* that his parents *influenced* him, in order to include their names. That's a pretty extreme point-of-view.  No biographer requires proof of influence before naming a person's parents.  It's fairly obvious to anyone reading this, that a person's parents did influence them without the need for the obvious statement that "his parents influenced him."  And regardless of whether they did or didn't, every biography on here is enhanced by stating where a person comes from, names of parents, where a person was born, etc.  No amount of shouting and complaining and long-winded arguments will change that simple and obvious fact. Wjhonson 22:46, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

And no amount of long-winded rebuttal will change the fact that your site will not be used as a source. --Fredrick day 22:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wjohnson, the issue is not that we should never include information on his family history. The issue is that if that information is challenged, as ThuranX has, you must provide a reliable source. An entry on another wiki is not a reliable source. Unimpeachable sources are especially critical in the biography of a living person, but work such as that really wouldn't be an acceptable source for any article. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 22:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it's misleading to call it a wiki - sure it uses wiki software but it's actual function is as a personal website. --Fredrick day 23:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No Fredrick, you can edit pages there as well. I've locked a few pages, but many if not most are readily editable by anyone who chooses. Wjhonson 23:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * what percentage of the edits are not by you? and how many unique editors are there? --Fredrick day 23:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Fredrick that isn't relevant to the fact that someone *can* make edits. The mere fact that someone *can* means it isn't a *personal website* in the sense you're stating. Wjhonson 23:54, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if we consider it a personal website rather than a wiki, the same applies. You do use some sources there that could provide trivial or obvious information (such as who his parents were). However, the work as a whole is a synthesis of primary sources. Unless it's been fact-checked or peer-reviewed, it is not reliable. It really makes no difference whether you did the work on your personal website or someone else did it on his website, that is not what is at issue here. A reconstruction of a family tree using genealogical information is non-trivial synthesis, so until it undergoes review, we can't use it. If your research is solid, get it fact-checked, get it published in a reliable source, and then the whole problem's done and we can use it! Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 23:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems I will not be allowed to let this issue settle. Instead of responding to the numerous discussions of what would e applicable discussion of Huckabee's family in his bio, WJhonson has chosen to characterize me as completely opposing even the inclusion ofhis parents' names. This level of mischaracterization, when what I keep saying is above in so many places i'm not going to bother to even con and paste it here, is so clearly different than that. There's no Good Faith going on here. Put in what you want. Do whatever you were going to do anyways. It's clear that you're never going to listen to me, to Seraphimblade, or to anyone else who's come here about this issue . I think I now know the answer to what I've been pondering for days. ThuranX 00:11, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break
As the above was getting too long. I really have no idea why you insist on making every statement into a hyperbolic attack. My only point is that, in a *biography*, we do not have to prove how a person's family affected them, in order to include basic details *about* that family. That has been my point from the beginning, with which evidently you now agree. I would like to point out, that out of the hundreds of biographies I've worked on on wikipedia, this is the *first* time I've encountered any argument like the above regarding (specifically) what biographical information we can and cannot include. ThuranX I thought you were going to take a break ;) Wjhonson 00:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * this is the final nail, I'm no longer taking a break, I'm leaving. In good faith, I left for a time so things could settle. Instead, you immediately seized upon that as a way to malign my character repeatedly. I don't agree with jack squat. I never said you could't add his parents' names. What I said is you couldn't add a speculative family tree. You said it demonstrated that his heritage affects who he is. I agreed that heritage and family do affect a person, and that you should find some netural reliable sources to explain how huckabee's particular family affected him. You immediately went into this mode of behaviro which frankly, is ridiculous. First, you attacked me for bring the matter to AN/I instead of ATT. Seraphim, prior to your 'pithy' not about that, recommended WP3O. I went there. You went to ATT. Between the three, your personal site was shot down by 7 people. You still continue to mischaracterize the entire mess. I have said, REPEATEDLY through this, find citable sources, and add some good prose context for this, instead of a bulky tree, or external links to your spamsite. I'm logging off now. I doubt I'll be back after this. I know you're eager for it, so without further ado... ThuranX 00:36, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wjohnson, you do seem to be missing the point. The issue is not that we cannot include a family history. I don't see a single reason not to do that. The issue is that we must have a reliable source. A genealogical profile that you compiled, that has not been fact-checked, is not a reliable source. Please see WP:ATT for more information. The issue is not "can we include it", it's "can we include it based on the source which has been provided." I don't know how much clearer of a "no", from how many more people, you can get. If you can find a more reliable source that comes to the same conclusions, or get your own work fact-checked and published in a reliable source, I'd be all for including it. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 00:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * ThuranX as I pointed out, the family tree is not speculative. Your continual use of this term, after it's been pointed out that it's false, shows that you have really no intention of trying to stand on a neutral territory.  My wiki was not "shot down by seven people", please stop mischaracterizing what occurred.  These sort of ridiculous arguments do not serve you at all, they only make your points seem outlandish.  I don't have a "spamsite" your allegations are libelous.  It's too bad you wish to leave simply because someone disputes your charges, but that's your choice to make.  Seraphimblade do you dispute that ThuranX said *repeatedly* above that the sources *must* indicate *how* the family influenced Mike?  Specifically he stated, influenced his policies, etc.  Later ThuranX changed his wording somewhat, and even when he appeared to come to some agreement, even disputes that he is agreeing to anything.  It's very hard to work *with* an editor who disagrees with what he himself just gets through saying.  I really, Seraphimblade, have no idea what you're arguing anymore.  This entire dispute, from A to Z started because ThuranX accused me of doing something nefarious by posting a link to a Talk page.  That's basically the issue.  You are arguing at cross purposes.  It's not effective. Wjhonson 00:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to stick to making my own point, thanks. I don't presume to speak for anyone but myself. I've already encouraged both of you to be more civil, and I stand by that. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 00:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what further needs to be discussed - you want uninvolved editors to look at the linka and see if it was suitable for inclusion - a number of editors (me included) have said it is not. What more needs to be discussed? The other issues with ThuranX I suggest you both continue via your talkpages or meditation. --Fredrick day 09:29, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I hope none of you will leave Wikipedia because of this. I fully agree with Seraphimblade in all the points he has made. Personally, I don't really care that it is Wjhonson's own Wiki, so I have no problems with him suggesting this on a talk page, but we have I think consensus that it doesn't serve as a reliable source. --Merzul 14:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That you Merzul for summing up the essential issues. As I mentioned above, at some point, I'll point the *underlying* sources as citations to the page, since they have been published by reliable, independent sources and are in general acceptance on Wikipedia.  There are a few sources I need to firm up with a more thorough (but not different) citation.  That is, my form of citation, in my own article, is not exact enough.Wjhonson 02:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
Can someone please explain why there is a template at the very top of the article stating that the neutrality of the article is disputed? Exactly what is disputed? The only recent conversation I see here is about a proposed link about Huckabee's ancestry. --ElKevbo 07:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

From What I see there is sufficient bashing to discredit Huckabee in the "controversy" section. I think the section is boarder line rant oriented and needs to be cut down to preserve Wikipedia's standards of neutrality. The Section on Mike's views should be expanded and combined with "controversy" the way it is written gives more discredit to him as a candidate... Shogun108 03:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * We're currently discussing it, please use the appropriate section further down the page. Your current explanation is rather vague. ThuranX 03:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Debate
Why is the only comment about the presidential debates that Huckabee doesn't believe in evolution? It seems a somewhat random and irrelevant thing to discuss about a Presidential candidate. As a side note to a question in the debate, Chris Matthews asked (by show of hands) which candidates didn't believe in evolution. It seems slightly off-topic. Some more comprehensive analysis of the debate would be useful, I'll add some of Dick Morris' thoughts on Huckabee's performance.A procrastinator 00:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC) Update: I removed the evolution comment, considering it's discussed in a bit more depth during the following section. If anyone has some criticisms of Huckabee's performance, please add it. A procrastinator 01:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can't fault you for removing double talk, but keep in mind that a candidate's beliefs and platform are VERY important, especially when those beliefs tread on scientific fact. I have two notes about this article, myself. 1: There is NO MENTION of his platform, at all. Given that he's a presidential candidate, it would be wise to inform curious people what he /actually wants to do/. 2: This line really sticks, for some reason. Probably because the lines above it are thoroughly quoted. It's under the 'criticisms' section. "The least reported portion of this criticism is that the tax increases were judicially mandated (for the education tax increase) as well as voted on by the citizens of Arkansas at around 80% approval (for the road tax increase)." There's no citation to this. I only noticed it because it's uncited under three lines that each warranted individual citations.. -Rutee, who has no Wiki Account.

Questions? Ask them through Wikinews
Hello,

I'm Nick Moreau, an accredited reporter for Wikinews. I'm co-ordinating our 2008 US Presidential election interviews. We will be interviewing as many candidates as possible, from the Democrats, Republicans, and other parties/independents.

I'll be sending out requests for interviews to the major candidates very soon, but I want your input, as people interested in American politics: what should I ask them?

Please go to any of these three pages, and add a question.


 * n:Wikinews:Story preparation/US 2008/Democratic Party
 * n:Wikinews:Story preparation/US 2008/Republican Party
 * n:Wikinews:Story preparation/US 2008/Third Party or Independent

Questions? Don't ask them here, I'll never see them. Either ask them on the talk page of any of these three pages, or [mailto:nicholasmoreau@gmail.com e-mail me].

Thanks, Nick

Fat picture?
Can we get a picture of fat Huckabee for contrast? //// Pacific PanDeist * 02:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

User 68.189.193.118
User deleted content (the entire Criticisms section) twice on Mike Huckabee page and twice on Constitutional Party page. Reverse lookup reveals user from Sikeston, Missouri and uses Charter Communications for internet access. User warned on talk page. If this can be linked to the Huckabee campaign, let me know. Jmegill 18:01, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Comments by Mike Huckabee
For a Canadian comedy show, Mike Huckabee gave a brief statement about nine minutes in to this clip on YouTube. It's rather amusing and somewhat ignorant of foreign policy. Jfingers 88  02:19, 23 August 2007 (UTC)      All Huckabee says is, "Hello Canada.  I want to congratulate you on preserving your national igloo." Huckabee doesn't come off as ignorant, but some of the other Americans do. Jmegill 03:08, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

CC photos
Here are a few photos yall can use:. I got some more coming our way in a little bit, so just relax. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 19:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

CATO
Just so you'll know.... the CATO Institute hates Huckabee because he's against smoking (CATO gets much of their funds from the tobacco industry). So having them as a source to say that Huckabee is a fiscal conservative is sort of like using George W. to say that Al Gore is a traitor. Thanks--SNSAnchor 02:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The objection to Huckabee's fiscal policies comes from both the Club for Growth and CATO. I believe it is important to put Huckabee's claims to the test.  He claimed that he is Arkansas' most conservative governor, but a Club for Growth leader and a two Arkansas historians disagreed with him. Here: CATO's study relies on 23 objectively measured variables.  In their commentary, CATO credits Huckabee with tax cuts early in his governorship.  But they also criticize him for spending increases early in his governorship and tax increases later in his governorship.  I did spend about an hour and a half considering your objection.  CATO is pro-tobacco.  One of the CATO's criteria is cigarette taxes.  (I happen to agree that cigarette taxes are a good idea because it cuts back on smoking)  The cigarette tax has a 4.87 % (1 out of 20.5) weight on the final grade.  Huckabee was 34 out of 46 on this - receiving 26 points out of 100.  Assuming that this category was made so all governors were average - received 50 points -, then it cost Huckabee 1.2 points on his final grade. (The effect on his tax subsection grade would be to move it from 45 points to 49 points.  49 points is still an F)  It would raise his final grade from 46 to 47 and cause him to be tied at 38th place of 46 governors (instead of tied at 41st out of 46).  I considered your objection carefully, but the measured effect from CATO's pro-tobacco bias is not big to significantly alter CATO's final standings.     Jmegill 04:01, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Considered a fiscal liberal?
I think that this sentence, "Huckabee is considered a strong social conservative but a fiscal liberal", is way over generalized. There's a reason for his "fiscal policy" being in the "controversy" section of the article, its there because its controversial, there is no clear one side. I think that it would be better to write that "he is considered a strong social conservative and economic populist. --SNSAnchor 18:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, I object to that sentence because I have my doubts that Huckabee is a "strong social conservative". I need to do some research on Huckabee's stance on gambling before I make that criticism.  I do want to note that Huckabee on some positions is on the Religious Left and on some positions he is on the Religious Right.  But right now, I want to deal with your complaint about fiscal liberal.  You list three sources.  The first source does not use the phrase "economic populist" anywhere in the article.  It says he has a "populist pitch".  The third source does not use the phrase "economic populist" anywhere in the article.  It says he has a "populist impulse".  Okay, the second article does use the phrase "economic populist".  However the writer says, "I want to be clear - I think a lot of Huckabee's rhetoric is just that: Rhetoric. I say that because while he shows courage in actually talking about these issues that many other Republicans (and some Democrats) refuse to talk about, he supported many typical regressive Republican policies in Arkansas and on the campaign trail today he reverts back to failed right-wing ideologies when he talks about "solutions," offering up proposals that would actually make things far worse."  In other words, the writer thinks that Huckabee is calling for these proposals merely to gain support for the election.  The writer does not think Huckabee is an economic populist.  The writer thinks that Huckabee tax proposals will lessen the tax burden for the rich and increase the tax burden for the middle class and poor.  This is the opposite of economic populism.  Your argument to call Huckabee an "economic populist" is not supported by your sources. Jmegill 19:54, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, here are some problems with the sentence saying he is a “fiscal liberal”.

1, Illogical, the article starts out by calling him a "fiscal liberal" and then goes on to have a whole section on the controversy regarding whether or not he is or not, that just seems bias or illogical.

2. Unproven, just because CATO and The Club for Growth call him a fiscal liberal does not mean he is considered by the majority of Americans to be one(like the sentence states). CATO and The Club for Growth have their own agenda's. One of the reasons the Club for Growth and CATO are being so vicious toward Huckabee is because he is a populist. Liberals don't even call themselves liberals anymore; they call themselves "progressives". The word itself has controversy and should not be applied just because a liberation organization calls a candidate one. In regards to changing the sentence to economic populist as stated in these articles, back that claim. I can also find more sources for him being considered a strong social conservative. For now, until i find more solid evidence that he is perceived as a "economic populist' by Americans, i will not change it.

But the references on the "fiscal liberal" sentence, do not reflect what the sentence says, so it should be taken down until proved (in this case, by a poll of some sort). Thanks for the feedback, --SNSAnchor 21:35, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * 1. The section is a 'criticisms' section, not a controversy section. 2.  Club for Growth does have an agenda.  They are well known for attacking fiscally liberal Republican candidates and assisting fiscally conservative Republican candidates.  That Club for Growth attacks Huckabee is evidence that Huckabee is fiscally liberal - which Club for Growth has been open about in their statements and blog.  Liberal is not derogatory in the sense "X as a candidate is socially liberal and fiscally liberal".  It is not just conservative groups that criticize Huckabee.  The Democratic National Committee cited Huckabee's "fiscal recklessness".  Here:  and also here: .  That groups on both sides of the political spectrum make the same criticism is evidence of its veracity.  It is a common formulation to describe candidates as either socially liberal or conservative and fiscally liberal or conservative.  The Huckabee campaign claims that Huckabee cut taxes 94 times.  I have found no documentation for this claim and suspect that they are using a creative interpretation for "tax cut".  If you look at the Huckabee campaign page, there is no mention of tax increases.

As "economic populist", the Sirota source disagrees that Huckabee is an economic populist. Weigel agrees that Huckabee's message is appealing and says voters will fall for it because they are "irrational". Weigel writes: "Sirota is right, and I've seen Huckabee win over skeptical rooms from Mitt Romney (and I've heard friends talk of him doing the same to Fred Thompson) with his populism. The frontrunning candidate will make some noise about tax cuts and bash Hillary: Huckabee will talk about "main street" and "family-friendly" tax reform. Voters are irrational, after all." Weigel doesn't think Huckabee is an economic populist. Instead, he thinks voters want to hear the words "main street' and "family-friendly". Jmegill 17:22, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, on January 28, 2007. Huckabee rejected pledging not to raise taxes. MR. RUSSERT: So “read my lips, no new taxes”? GOV. HUCKABEE: I think you got to be very careful. I, I wouldn’t propose any new taxes. I wouldn’t support any. But if we’re in a situation where we are in a different level of war, where there is no other option, I think that it’s a very dangerous position to make pledges that are outside the most important pledge you make, and that is the oath you take to uphold the Constitution and protect the people of the United States.

Of course, he later changed his position. source http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16785556/  and http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16785556/page/2/ It is controversial to ONLY mention that pledged not to raise taxes and not to mention that he couldn't make that pledge two months earlier. Jmegill 00:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Approval ratings
"His ratings "tanked" in 2002 and 2003, she said, as his approval rating decreased 47 percent. Parry credited the governor's involvement in the "divisive" issue of school consolidation with his decrease in approval." Huckabee had 47% approval ratings in 2002 and 2003. I consider high approval ratings above 65%. Please show sources above 65% in order to claim that Huckabee had high approval ratings. Here —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmegill (talk • contribs) 23:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Try this again cited source http://media.www.thetraveleronline.com/media/storage/paper688/news/2004/11/05/News/Sixth.Arkansas.Poll.Completed-794135.shtml Jmegill 23:53, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Show sources saying that high approval ratings means specifically 65% or above. A.J.A. 02:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, in 2004/2005 he was the highest rated political figure in the state. While he may of had lower ratings in 2002-2003, his rating remained consistently good after that point, which was the majority of his tenure. Take into account that approval ratings are not judged 1%-100%, in 2005 the highest approval rating for any United States governor was in the 70%'s. In 2006 he had a approval rating in the 60's. Saying that he enjoyed good approval ratings is justified --SNSAnchor 01:06, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed that phrase on approval ratings because it violates a neutral point of view. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV  Jmegill 21:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Jmegill, saying that Huckabee "enjoyed good approval rating during his tenure" in no way violates a neutral point of view. I have shown through evidence that he consistently had good approval ratings in comparison to all other governors. I have also shown, through a source, that Huckabee was the "highest rated a political figure in his state." The burden of proof is on you, and therefor, until you find any sources which prove my point false, I would advise you not to remove this referenced point. --71.245.65.115 00:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I removed the statement again... sorry - I hadn't read this post, however, I would have likely still removed it. Saying he enjoyed good approval ratings is original research, unless you have a source that says he had good approval ratings.  If you find such a source, than that would work for me or you could state what his approval ratings were and let the reader decide if it is good.  For example, "Huckabee received approval ratings from 55% to 60% during the last seven years in office." or something to that affect that can be backed up with numbers.  I'm not sure how appropriate this is for the lead, it may be better to have this a little further into the article.  Morphh   (talk) 2:04, 04 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Just read your new addition, this seems acceptable to me. Morphh   (talk) 2:05, 04 October 2007 (UTC)

Opposite
I swear. This guy views that are the polar opposite of mine. Could anybody direct me to someone who has beliefs opposite to this guy? 71.89.8.194 00:42, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Not running for president, but Peter DeFazio and Bernie Sanders spring to mind Jmegill 00:49, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

He's challenged Ron Paul to a debate, and the two disagree on Iraq and other things.--Gloriamarie 22:38, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

School Closings in AR
i need your opinion on something... what are some of Huckabee's character traits (personality) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.52.159.157 (talk) 03:00, 1 March 2008 (UTC) Can anyone find text of any of Huckabee's speeches? His school closing plans closed at least 3 schools that he flew to in the State police helicopter and told the children there that their school would stay open. I know that Mount Holly was one of them as I was there but cannot find a source.


 * the article contains a paragraph touching on school consolidation. As for specific promises not to close certain schools, I did a brief check and was unable to find such information.  Huckabee won't have a copy of a speech he gave at Mount Holly because he doesn't write out stump speeches, although the school probably did videotape his appearance.  Another possible place to check would be to call the local newspaper reporter and ask if that information was ever reported in the local press.  Teachers and principals of said schools would also have a keen memory and may have sourcing.RobRedactor (talk) 00:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Education???
Huckabee's degree according to his own website is in Speech, not Religion. He also no longer claims to have any hours toward a Masters. I have no citation for this, but at a commencement speech in 2004 at a public University in Arkansas he was claiming an Associate's Degree in Theology from OBU. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.161.166.132 (talk) 00:57, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Mike Huckabee did receive his B.A. from Ouachita Baptist University in 1975 and M.A. from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in 1980 according to these sources below.

Please see links:

http://www.infoplease.com/biography/var/mikehuckabee.html

http://pewforum.org/religion08/profile.php?CandidateID=10

OK Now 7 (talk) 06:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, what should be possibly added for Mike Huckabee's B.A. is that he received a Bachelor of Arts in religion and a minor in communications.

OK Now 7 (talk) 07:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Huckabee believes in Biblical inerrancy -- true or false?
Mike Huckabee is the devil incarnate...Is this still true after the youtube debate? The article states that "Huckabee believes in Biblical inerrancy." I'm not sure if this is absolutely correct. Did you see the youtube republican debate, especially question 20? Huckabee said that certain things in the bible are obviously allegorical.

I don't know how to change these articles or else I would change this myself. Go to the below link to the youtube debate and watch his response to question 20 for proof. He basically says that there are some parts that are obviously allegorical, but some parts like "love thy neighbor" are not. This implies that he does not literally believe EVERYTHING in the bible. http://www.youtube.com/republicandebate#qa_RF-nMaYq3QE

I looked up the article cited for this point, written in 1997, and it says:

"During his presidency from 1989 to 1991, Southern Baptists were feuding at the state and national level. The conservative wing believed in a literal interpretation of the Bible. Moderates believed some Bible stories were simply metaphors and parables.

Mr. Huckabee counted himself in the conservative camp, a believer in Biblical inerrancy.

"If you can accept the resurrection, that is the ultimate miracle," he said. "If you can buy that one, the others are easy:

turning water into wine and such."

Isn't this contradictory to what he said in the youtube debate?
 * I think Biblical Innerancy is pretty much what Huckabee said in his response. He believes that the Bible is historically and factually accurate. Paisan30 (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Inerrancy of the Bible has nothing to do with whether you believe every single word in it must be taken completely literally. Look up the Chicago Statement in Biblical Inerrancy. This is the belief that the Southern Baptists Convention accepts and holds to.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.195.83.200 (talk) 21:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have shown this to be sourced to three different sources (Scott Parks 1997, Arkansas Democrat Gazette 9/01/1991, and Arkansas Democrat Gazette 7/28/1990) in the section above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mike_Huckabee#Extended_Quote_from_the_Scott_Parks_1997_article Newsweek put out an article this week, which makes a fourth source that Huckabee believes the Bible is inerrant. From Newsweek 12/08/2007 NEWSWEEK: I wanted to follow up on a question you and the other candidates got at the YouTube debate about whether you believe every word in the Bible. Do you believe the Bible is inerrant? HUCKABEE: I believe it is. There are some things in the Bible that were clearly intended to be figurative: "If the eye offends thee, go pluck it out." Did Jesus mean that we were supposed to take our fingertips, reach deep into our eye and pull it out if we see something we don't think we should see? Obviously not. "Inerrant" means if you follow the direction of the Bible, it will not lead you into error.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/74473/output/print     To answer your question:  Huckabee says he believes in Biblical inerrancy from numerous sources. Does he contradict himself? I don't know enough about the arguments of inerrancy to make those kinds of judgments. I think you are getting at what the definition of inerrancy is and Huckabee supplied such a definition in the recent quote above. Jmegill (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This has been bugging me ever since the Youtube debate. Couldn't you beleive that everything in the bible happened but also beleive that the lessons of the bible are open to interpretation?--Dr who1975 (talk) 21:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely, but that would be the converse, or incvers, not sure which, of Huckabee's statement. What he believes ist hat hte lessons are absolute, but the events may not have happened exactly as told, thus the eye offends thee example. You should not physically rip your eye out (literalism), but either not look at, or remove,m that which offends (inerrant lesson). That's what Huckabee's getting at. True? Dunno. LEgit? Dunno. Huck's opinion? apparently. ThuranX (talk) 22:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Inerrancy is the belief that the Bible is inerrant in all that it intends to convey. If something was intended to be understood figuratively, it would be erroneous to take it literally.  Christ's words about plucking out your eye are an example of the use of hyperbole to drive home a point. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 22:28, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think an interesting question is whether Huckabee believes that the miracles portrayed in the Bible actually happened. The newspaper article above from 1997 has Huckabee quoted as believing in miracles, that is, the resurrection.  Recent comments suggest that some parts of the Bible Huckabee interprets metaphorically.  There is a comment Huckabee made somewhere about Jonah and the whale.  I can't remember his take on it.  Jmegill (talk) 23:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting, but probably way beyond the scope of this article. ThuranX (talk) 03:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There are wikipedia articles on Biblical literalism, inerrancy and infallibilty, none of which (except for perhaps "pure literalism") preclude allegorical, poetic and metaphorical interpretations of specific Biblical texts. Anyway I would presume from Huckabee's statements that he believes in Biblical inerrancy.  Jlambert (talk) 05:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

list
Lists are discouraged. See political positions section. Bothsidesspin (talk) 00:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Have you got an actual proposal for how to better explain Huckabee's positions on a number of issues? That's a place where a list makes sense. To conjoin sections would smack of WP:SYNTH. Lists are discouraged, not prohibitied. there are many places lists are bad, this is a place where it makes soome sense. Explaiun in depth, please. Also, please create a section addressing your POV tagging. Thank you. ThuranX (talk) 00:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Judical Watch
The Judicial Watch stuff is highly POV and partisan. 69.19.14.20 (talk) 03:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed, not to mention it was removed for not being relevant to the 2008 presidential campaign. If the editor who reinserted it wants to comment on how it is relevant, please do so below before reverting an edit. Rtr10 (talk) 05:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Judicial Watch did not single out Huckabee. Clinton, Obama and Giuliani also made their list. Is Judicial Watch notable enough to get a mention in the bios of every politician it criticizes? No. Paisan30 (talk) 19:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agree. By itself, the list is not notewothy enough to appear in the articles of any of the people named. There could conceivably develop a larger context in which it could fairly be mentioned, but that context doesn't currently exist. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know folks; the last time I looked Huckabee was running for president of the US. Judicial Watch is a conservative, nonpartisan watchdog group. Their comments on all presidential candidates is valid and worthwhile. What you seem to be doing looks very much like whitewashing an indepth review of this candidate.
 * To claim this is a "partisan" review is specious; if it was a liberal group one might get away with it. Do you have any legitimate reasons or is it that you just dislike negative information being covered? --Storm Rider (talk) 20:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it's noteworthy enough for inclusion. JW's a well-known political commentary site, not some random blogspot blog. Their article was covered at HuffPo, and Drudge, so it got covered by other sources, and so on. debates about the incestuous nature of political websites aside, I think the article's notability can be established by it's coverage elsewhere, and thus, included. ThuranX (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You can't really put "debates about the incestuous nature of political websites aside." That's the whole point.  Just because an opinion is offered in one place, and then repeated on dozens of like-minded blogs and websites doesn't mean it is noteworthy.  There isn't a threshold of noteworthiness amongst the blogs that makes something automatically worthy of inclusion once it's been mentioned by enough of them.  At the very least, it would need to get play in the regular journalistic media (newspapers, television, etc.)  The JW "report" is essentially an editorial, and there is no need to edit an article about a politician every time somebody writes an editorial about them, good or bad.  --Loonymonkey (talk) 23:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not seeing any evidence that Judicial Watch does not match the standards of a verifiability; Loonymonkey, or any other editor that has deleted this information, can you provide any evidence it is not verifiable? When you have something that is referenced by a reputable source, there is not reason to delete it; in fact, it is the single, greatest threshold for inclusion. More importantly, it completely meets the standards of neutrality, which would seem to be wholly lacking in all of your reasoning for deletion.

The reasons you have provided:
 * 1)  "An opinion is offered...does not mean it is noteworthy." This is silliness parading as reason. Huckabee is a presidential candidate; a politician seeking the highest office for a politician and a neutral, conservative think tank has named him corrupt. How can anyone say that it is not noteworthy? This seems more like a base attempt to keep negative information from readers.
 * 2)  "it would need to get play in the regular journalistic media (newspapers, television, etc.)" Please review policies, this is your personal opinion and is not the policy of Wikipedia. This also applies to your last reason; Wikipedia is about policies and not your personal opinions, POVs, and agendas.
 * 3)  "The Judicial Watch stuff is highly POV and partisan." This is just a flat out lie. I think this editor is confusing POV with negative. A neutral, third party's review of the history of politician is not POV; it is their factual review of a politician's actions. Partisan??? Huckabee is a republican and JW is a conservative group. To be partisan it would have needed to be done by someone like Move On, a liberal group attacking a conservative politician.

No legitimate reason to exclude the information has been given. To delete the information points to two major policies that are being broken ownership and balance. This petty edit war violates our policies and the continued deletion of the material amounts to vandalism, and may very well result in editors being blocked. --Voire Dei (talk) 07:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * You need to recheck the definition of vandalism - this is quite clearly content dispute. The JW article was written about his actions as governor; if the JW article is to be mentioned at all on this page it therefore needs to be placed somewhere in the "Governor of Arkansas" section as it has no direct relevance to Huckabee's '08 campaign.  As for major policies being broken, the text mentioning the JW article comprises roughly half of the entire '08 campaign section; that is obviously an undue amount of text for this article and therefore a blatant violation of WP:NPOV.  I personally don't feel that the JW article merits any mention in this page because, though it has been referred too by a few other news sources, I don't feel like JW is considered to be a reputable judge of who is actually the most corrupt politician. However, for a compromise would people be opposed to shortening the section and moving it to immediately follow the mention of Time magazine's listing of him as one of the five best governors?-- Rise  Above The Vile  17:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think that's appropriate. Putting this story in the Campaign section gives it undue weight. As you mentioned, the JW information is currently the most prominent point in this section. There is already a Presidential Campaign article, so this biography page should only be a short summary of the most important points about the campaign. Judicial Watch is not one of those points. Paisan30 (talk) 20:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, there is currently NO mention on Giuliani's page of this story. Paisan30 (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That objection falls under WPOTHERCRAPEXISTS and doesn't make for a good argument for exclusion. ThuranX (talk) 21:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing for exclusion. I moved it to the appropriate place in the article. I was just pointing out that Giuliani's page makes no mention of it, since another editor said that he has added it to both articles. Paisan30 (talk) 21:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Voire, regarding "No legitimate reason to exclude the information has been given" you really need to go back and review the policies on this. It is not up to other editors to "prove" that something doesn't belong in an article.  In edit disputes, the onus is on the editor arguing for inclusion to make the case that the information is necessary to the article.  Further, what is your evidence that Judicial Watch is reliable?  They certainly aren't journalistic.  This "list" is simply an editorial (and not even an editorial published in a mainstream source).  You can make a very good case that the information referred to by Judicial Watch is relevant and should be included (and back it up with other sources), but the JW article by itself is simply the opinion of a few and should not be given undue weight.


 * And finally, you have a complete misunderstanding of what constitutes vandalism. I would suggest you read the linked page on that subject to avoid mistakes like threatening that editors in disagreement will be "blocked" (which just comes across as sort of laughable and distracts from whatever point you are trying to make). --Loonymonkey (talk) 21:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I guess I read the article incorrectly on Vandalism. I reads:
 * "Vandalism is any addition, removal, or change of content made in a deliberate attempt to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia. Your repeated deletions without any reason amounts to vandalism.
 * All that was offered by those who deleted the text was basically "I don't like it", "it does not belong", etc. There is not basis for its exclusion. It has been legitimately referenced. The policy you now attempt to twist to your own means reads: "The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question." The editor did this; it is impossible for readers not to go directly to the source to understand the complete context of Judicial Watch's position and expertise. You actually think a journalist is more qualified than a group that is "a conservative, non-partisan educational foundation", that "promotes transparency, accountability and integrity in government, politics and the law." Do you have any sources that state this is is part of the extremist fringe? If not, you have no grounds for your position. Although I am tickled pink that you got a laugh, my objective is that you actually learn the difference between writing with an agenda and writing in a neutral manner. --Voire Dei (talk) 22:44, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, you did read it incorrectly. Or are you actually trying to make the case that all of the editors that disagree with you here are, in fact, attempting to compromise the integrity of Wikipedia.  Unless you  simply assume bad faith of, I don't see how you could believe such a thing.


 * It's great that Judicial Watch calls itself "non-partisan" but that doesn't mean they are (and it doesn't have much to do with our discussion, anyway). The issue isn't their impartiality, it's the simple fact that just because an organization editorialized against a politician doesn't mean that their opinion must automatically be added to an article.  As I said, if you're really concerned about the information they refer to, you should source those facts (not their opinion summarizing those facts) and weave it into the article.  I, for one, would certainly not object.  But as you don't seem to be interested in doing that (it is a lot of hard work, after all) I and many others will resist the inclusion of isolated editorial opinions.  As for writing with an agenda, all I have to say is "physician, heal thyself."  I have no interest in Mike Huckabee as a politician.  I do have an interest in insuring that Wikipedia Politics does not devolve into a collection of pro and con editorials about politicians.--Loonymonkey (talk) 23:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The deletionists have gotten completely off the leash here. An editor does not have to justify that every bit of information he puts in is "necessary" to an article, and the person removing information from an article most certainly does not enjoy some special status that would demand others not revert him.  To the contrary, Wikipedia says that anything notable gets put in and uses a WP:3RR that is the same for everyone.  Whenever Huckabee interacts with an organization or an organization interacts with him in a way that is noteworthy enough to be described by reliable sources, it's appropriate to put into the article.  If you look up Judicial Watch you'll have a hard time arguing they aren't a notable entity.


 * It is true that in theory if you rounded up every notable organization and newspaper that gave Huckabee or any other candidate thumbs up or thumbs down (with sufficient fanfare to be reported as news by someone other than themselves, that is), you'd have a really long list. Which is great - that's what Wikipedia is for!  We'd eventually have to split it into its own article List of Mike Huckabee endorsements, ratings, and denunciations and put it in a nice pretty table and everyone could look up their favorite organization on it and Wikipedia would be another article richer. Wnt (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

From these sources it seems that Judicial Watch is not above reproach.

http://www.savingjudicialwatch.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Fitton

OK Now 7 (talk) 06:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Computer Hard Drives Destroyed article from ArkansasNews.com. This is one example of an ethics charge brought against Mike Huckabee. This points out how easy it is for anybody to charge a governmental official with an ethics violation. http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2007/07/27/News/342875.html

OK Now 7 (talk) 06:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Bill Gothard
Are there more sources for Bill Gothard? I am not sure how significant this is. I would like to see sourcing on the programs that Huckabee actually adopted in Arkansas based on Gothard. Jmegill (talk) 05:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I am really curious if Gothard influence Huckabee on covenant marriage. Jmegill (talk) 05:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I am not sure if Gothard is connected to this. Found this using High Beam Research, Fla. Legislators Sneak `Faith-Based' Aid Into State Budget Bill.(Brief Article) From: Church & State

Date:   May 1, 2001   "..... In other news about "charitable choice
 * Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee (R) has ordered the Child Welfare Agency to give a contract to a fundamentalist-oriented home for troubled youngsters called The Lord's Ranch, despite the organization's reluctance to accept government oversight in the past.

Staffers at The Lord's Ranch, based in Warm Springs, blocked state inspectors from interviewing children about suspected abuse in 1994, reported the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. That same day, the Randolph County sheriff's office reported that Ted Suhl, director of the ranch, had purchased two AR-15 assault rifles, two shotguns and several handguns. (Suhl claims he bought just one handgun and did not keep it at the ranch.)

A 1996 report by state officials noted further compliance problems at the ranch. Nevertheless, Huckabee appointed Suhl to the Child Welfare Agency Licensing Board and approved the facility for $140,490 in state funds, to be used for psychological treatment of children.

Suhl and other officials at the Lord's Ranch donated $8,650 to Huckabee's reelection campaigns between December 1996 and December 2000, but he told the Democrat-Gazette the contributions had nothing to do with governor's support for the children's home. Jmegill (talk) 05:41, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I removed the section because it was essentially unsourced. The one link used in the section was dead. Paisan30 (talk) 05:56, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Related material on faith-based programs And in Arkansas, Republican Gov. Mike Huckabee, formerly the president of the Arkansas Baptist State Convention, also appointed an abstinence commission. Whereas only a decade ago, state officials were urging school-based health clinics to distribute contraception, today Arkansas is pushing a $1.4 million-a-year abstinence program run by conservatives.

Not surprisingly, state abstinence programs have attracted passionate criticism from liberals, and some programs have faced charges of fraud and mismanagement. The first round of contracts awarded by Arkansas' abstinence program was delayed by the state legislature, which suspected bias in the grant review process toward groups aligned with national conservative organizations; the legislators subsequently learned that the governor's abstinence committee had kept no meeting minutes bylaws. from Pork for prudes: how conservatives score, while teaching kids not to.From:   Washington Monthly Date:    September 1, 2002 Author: Larson, Christina   Jmegill (talk) 06:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The link isn't dead. The guy justed added a '/' on the end; messing it up.  Here:  http://ethicsdaily.org/article_detail.cfm?AID=9889  Jmegill (talk) 06:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I really don't think that being photographed with someone and being described as "an admirer" of him are all that notable. Not enough for inclusion in a bio, anyway. Paisan30 (talk) 16:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * A connection to Bill Gothard and/or Ted Suhl should be included because there is a pattern of state spending on faith-based initiatives. A search of Google news archives mentions a 1997 article which ties Gothard to Huckabee and a search of Gothard's site iblp.org reveals two mentions of Huckabee (google Huckabee site:iblp.org).  The site mentions " Governor Mike Huckabee of Arkansas stated, “As a person who has actually been through the Basic Seminar, I am confident that these are some of the best programs available for instilling character into the lives of people.”"  Gothard apparently does prison rehabilitation programs.  Ted Suhl also runs a faith-based program which provides services to troubled youth.  Google "Ted Suhl" Huckabee and the arktimes has a couple stories on the subject.  Jmegill (talk) 17:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Good enough. If there are links to state funding based on Huckabee's involvement, then it should be included. Paisan30 (talk) 18:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a problem of SYNTH here. you're taking isolated cases, and hoping that putting enough up will let readers draw a concolusion you know you can't draw for them. However, until someone else publishes that central premise, there's no cumulative notability to these, and their inclusion individually fails consensus per notability and undue weight. I've noticed that your edits for information are really starting to look like you're trawling for anything negative about the guy, and including it. It's got to stop. The numerous problems with the guy's past are well documented. when we get a RS for the faith-based issue, we can include it. but Wikipedia isn't the place for investigative journalism, it's an encyclopedia. ThuranX (talk) 18:11, 1 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I object to characterization of my edits as looking for negative information. I have repeatedly removed negative information from the article when it is not warranted.  My goal has always been to provide a comprehensive view of the Governor.  If there is something I can be faulted on, it is a technical charge of not providing citation templates.  What can I say?  I'm very lazy about that.  While arktimes.com is a RS, Arkansas Democrat Gazette is also a RS source.  An article from 3/25/01 starts out with, "Under Huckabee administration, faith groups vie with business for government contracts Church, state team up

MARK MINTON ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE With a former Baptist minister as governor, Arkansas has joined the vanguard of a movement to lower the barriers between religion and government.

Since Gov. Mike Huckabee took office four years ago, the state has hired church groups to run welfare and youth programs while rewriting state contracts and laws to affirm the groups' religious freedoms -- such as their freedom to reject a job candidate or client whose religion differs from their own.

Critics call this taxpayer-financed discrimination. Supporters say it allows church groups to compete with other private organizations seeking government service contracts.

With President Bush touting "faith-based initiatives" as a way for government to enlist highly motivated church groups, supporters and skeptics alike are searching the country to see how such partnerships work. Arkansas is at the forefront of what one Huckabee aide calls a "national experiment."

At a time when a school prayer or even a public nativity scene can set off a constitutional uproar, few noticed when Huckabee in October ordered state agencies to follow guidelines that give faith groups new prerogatives when they sign government contracts.

Under the guidelines, groups no longer must cloak their religion when they contract to run welfare-to-work programs, said Chris Pyle, the governor's family policy director.

Faith groups that in the past had to "secularize" when they signed a contract now have permission to leave their religious symbols and artwork on the walls and to offer religious programs as long as attendance is voluntary, tax money doesn't directly underwrite them, and welfare clients are not pressured to convert, Pyle said..... " Can't post the whole thing here because its copyright, but it does mention Lord's Ranch and Ted Suhl later in the article.    18:52, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

That's the material you need to use as a source. That supports the premise your other information builds on. Now you can move forward. As for the looking for negative information, while I have seen you remove some, you certainly add much much more negative information than positive, and you do so regularly. I'm not stopping you nor regularly reverting you, but I would like to see you undertake either overall less editing of the article, or do the same volume, but in a more balanced manner. You sometimes seem to pull the negative parts of articles here, and I'm sure you're omitting the positive sides of some. Try to keep your editing balanced, and it makes keeping the entire article balanced easier. Also keep in mind, I've defended your edits in the past, so if I"m percieving some possible trouble, perhaps that's a sign that there could actually be problems, not just people randomly objecting to you. ThuranX (talk) 20:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Mike Huckabee's disregrard for due process, the separation of powers doctrine, and basic concepts of justice
$$Insert non-formatted text here$$ In a nationally broadcast radio, Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee once compared the State of Arkansas to a “banana republic.” See, "Huckabee: State like a 'banana republic'." Arkansas DemocratGazette 7 Nov. 2000. At http://rickspencer.com/wcc.asp, you will find absolute proof of gross abuse of injured workers and every concept of justice and due process upon which this country is founded by Former Governor Huckabee’s administrative. This proof unequivocally establishes that Mr. Huckabee allowed the insurance and self-insured industries in Arkansas to control how Judges vote in cases presented to them without regard to the facts or the law. You will also find absolute proof that Huckabee attempted to establish a “business friendly” environment in the State of Arkansas through the use of coercive tactics that are similar to the tactics used by the dictators of the “banana republics” to which he compared this State. Specifically, in response to influences and pressure from private interests and to further his quest to create a “business friendly” environment in this State that favors private enterprise, Huckabee’s administration focused extreme pressure on the administrative law judges of the Workers’ Compensation Commission and the Commissioners themselves to decide claims presented to them in favor of employers and insurance carriers or else these judges would be fired. This pressure focused directly and substantially upon the mental decision-making processes of the administrative law judges and Commissioners. The affect of this pressure compromised and impaired the appearance of impartiality which is so essential to any concept of justice and fair play. In fact, at least three administrative law judges were fired by Huckabee because they did not decide cases presented to them in the manner dictated by Mr. Huckabee. The constitutionality of Mr. Huckabee’s actions has been challenged by Attorney Rick Spencer, in Mountain Home, Arkansas. The brief which Mr. Spencer has submitted to the Appellate Courts in Arkansas, as well as the depositions of members of Mr. Huckabee’s staff as well as Mr. Huckabee himself, which corroborate these allegations, can be found on Mr. Spencer’s web site, which can be found above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rookie72116 (talk • contribs) 23:10, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, it's a bombastic screed, but what do you expect us to do with it? Mr. Spencer's website in this instance falls under a blog, more than anything. It's an educated blog, but it's an Arkansas resident with an axe to grind. I don't think we can use his ideas here. It may be that some of his citations can be used, but that's a different question, and a lot of work to ask others to do. review his citations, and see what you can bring to the article. Thank you. ThuranX (talk) 23:27, 2 January 2008 (UT

The deposition testimony is more than a blog or an Arkansas Resident with an axe to grind. The deposition testimony is sworn testimony by Huckabee, his chief of staff, and several members of his staff. There testimony is not the opinion of Mr. Spencer or any other Arkansas resident. They document the actions and attitudes of Mr. Huckabee. Whether it can be used in this article, I don't know. The deposition testimony of Mr. Huckabee and his staff members do provide insight into Mr. Huckabee's values.


 * Interesting material, but all it boils down to is "Rick Spencer alleges that Huckabee pressures and fires judges. Huckabee denies the allegations.  Finally, the Arkansas Supreme Court Committee on Professional Conduct has dismissed Rick Spencer's complaint." http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=1c9b8e7f-45ca-4d4d-92ac-d86ad94ec7ec  The affidivits are troubling, but do they amount to a news story?  Can you going into the Arkansas Democrat Gazette archives and find something that they have printed on the matter?  The Arkansas Times seems to be the only one which prints the story. Jmegill (talk) 01:10, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It's hearsay and an axe grinding site, I agree. Not notable unless something changes significantly. ThuranX (talk) 03:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

David Huckabee
Considering that David Huckabee is already wikilinked, I question whether the David Huckabee dog incident merits its own subsection. Perhaps it is undue weight. Jmegill (talk) 22:35, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with this. There is no way this should merit its own section.  I even wonder if it merits inclusion at all.  Remove this section.  We really have to look at BLP policy on this as well for David.  Morphh   (talk) 2:40, 05 January 2008 (UTC)

Pakistan
Didn't his comments on Pakistan sharing an eastern border with Afghanistan draw more criticism then the Pakistan immigrant thing? Nil Einne (talk) 21:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

College
I heard he mentioned college scholarships in a speech. Does anyone know what he said in particular?--Playstationdude (talk) 22:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am not sure which speech you mean. Was it this one  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbKA4HqjpeA ?  Jmegill (talk) 22:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That may be it. I heard on the news that he brought up scholarships somewhere, but I thought it was for legal citizens that couldn't afford it. Does he have anything for the ignored middle class.--Playstationdude (talk) 23:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Arkansas has scholarships available for high school students who meet certain academic requirements to stay in-state. The quantity may have been cut due to budget cutbacks in 2002 or 2003.  I am not sure.  Here is a website:  http://www.adhe.edu/challenge/  The issue was that these scholarships are for people with legal status.  In 2005, Huckabee proposed expanding the eligibility requirements to include people who did not have legal status (and, in addition, proposed in-state tuition for those without legal status).  This move has received plenty of coverage from the media in the last couple of weeks.  There may be other scholarships or similar programs in Arkansas.  For example, I think Arkansas has an residential governor's school for smart high schoolers.  Jmegill (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It appears that until 2005, the Academic Challenge scholarships excluded homeschoolers until legislation was passed which permitted them eligibility. http://www.hslda.org/Legislation/State/ar/2005/ARHB1983/default.asp  After you posed the question, I was curious about the requirements for the scholarship because they mentioned graduating from an Arkansas high school and decided to do a quick search.  Jmegill (talk) 00:59, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the research. I'm Texan, and besides the financial aid there is nothing. If you are in the top 10% of your class, you are automatically accepted to a public state school, but there is no scholarship help which I know of. Thanks again for the info.--Playstationdude (talk) 01:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Global Warming & Energy
Shouldn't his stance(s) on Global Warming and other environmental issues like alternative energy be listed? Cowicide (talk) 10:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * the political positions page could use more material on Huckabee record on environment and current stances on environment. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mike_Huckabee#Environment   Jmegill (talk) 16:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Crossing the Picket Line
Huckabee's crossing of the writer's picket line to appear on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno on the day before the Iowa Caucus was well covered in the media and is relavent to his political behavior and ideals. It deserves mention on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.26.106.9 (talk) 18:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I beg to differ. Not on the main page.  Maybe, a big maybe, on the presidential campaign page.  But from what I have read, Leno isn't breaking the union terms- or claims not to be breaking the strike.  Jmegill (talk) 21:27, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Leno is not breaking picket lines.  Huckabee would be crossing them if he'd used scabs to write for him, but writers are not protesting television, just written television.  =David ( talk )( contribs ) 03:37, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Besides, he's a Republican. It would be notable if a Democrat did it. You know - man bites dog, and all that. --Elliskev 01:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Nick names like Tax Hike Mike and being # 6 on Judicial Watch's 10 most wanted corrupt politicians
where should Nick names like Tax Hike Mike and being # 6 on Judicial Watch's 10 most wanted corrupt politicians go? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.6.100.56 (talk) 20:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * On a blog, a political discussion forum or in an editorial, but not in an encyclopedic article. --Loonymonkey (talk) 20:17, 5 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Paisan30 (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Channel 3 KTBS in Texarkana did a recent story about Mike Huckabee. The part about Dennis Young is interesting. http://www.ktbs.com/news/Mike-Huckabee:-The-Next-Man-From-Hope-Part-Two-8433/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.30.181.105 (talk) 05:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's part one http://www.ktbs.com/news/Mike-Huckabee:-The-Next-Man-from-Hope-8410/# —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.30.181.105 (talk) 06:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

David Huckabee sub section
If there is a sub section on David Huckabee on the Mike Huckabee page it should give a more detailed account of the incident rather than a one sentice description that is purely anti-huckabee and gives no balanced description of the incident, on one said of a hearsay story. This is an encycolpedic website, only having one sentice on one side of a hearsay situation is rediculous. Rtr10 (talk) 04:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I would support completely deleting it, per WP:BLP, but expanding it, even to rebut, gives it undue weight. Bellwether B  C  04:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I am fine with deletion as well, but to have it as a one sentence, one side of a hearsay story is not encyclopedic content. All I am aiming for is neutrality here and the original one sentince sub section just seemed like an anti-huckabee statement as if it was coming from an opposing campaign or something. I would be more than pleased with deletion though, because I do not think the story is worthy of encyclopedic content, but if the story is going to stay, it needs to be a full representation of the story. Rtr10 (talk) 04:07, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I have deleted it, per the policy on biographies of living persons. It's nothing more than inflammatory, and expanding it, even to rebut, lends the accusation undue weight. And, for the record, I'm a Democrat, and an Obama supporter, lest I be accused of whitewashing Huackabee's article. Not that you were going to accuse me of that, I'm just making it clear that mine was not a POV-based edit. Bellwether B  C  04:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No I definitely had no intent of pointing that at you of having a political bias in your editing, I do however think who ever created the sub section used very poor judgement in the creation and did not follow Wiki policy. I am totally fine with the deletion and definitely have no ill feelings towards you, I think the deletion is better for the article and that is what we should always be working for. Rtr10 (talk) 04:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe that a balanced sentence or two can be included. We simply link to the main controversy, summarize it as has been done more than once (Huck came under fire for his part in an incident involving DH.(cite, link) Huck's people refute the media coverage. (cite). I'm not going to edit nor agitate for its' inclusion, but if we don't discuss it, we DO need to wikilink it, as his possible abuses of power in the firing of the sheriff are relevant to his gov'ship and his character. ThuranX (talk) 04:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If it is included with the source that was used it MUST BE a FULL representation of the situation. If it was the one sentence/one sided story that sub sectioned before, that will not stand and I will not stand by with a blatant one sided story as before. It must be BALANCED. The original content was FAR from being balanced and was an obvious anti-huckabee bias edit. If that happens again, I will personally delete it. Rtr10 (talk) 04:49, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree as I stated above that it should not have had its own header but it should probably have some inclusion, unless we feel it would be giving undue weight in Huckabee's biography. I don't think that everything that appears on the news belongs, but if it is notable enough then we should include it.  If included, it should be brief and offer something from each side. Details may not be needed depending on weight.  Something like Huckabee has been criticised for an incident regarding his son, DH (wikilinked to article).(cite) Huckabee defended his actions yada yada yada.(cite)  So we may not need to go into the details of what happend, only that the incident took place.  This allows us to include it without having to go into the detail of a full description / rebuttal.  If you describe the incident, then you have to include the defense as well, which may make it longer then weight would allow for its inclusion.  Morphh   (talk) 20:07, 06 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Morphh's solution matches mine fairly well, so I support it. As to Rtr10, you're showing signs of WP:OWN, so calm down, lest you get into trouble. Threats of absolutism are verboten on Wikipedia, and shouldn't be made. Thank you. ThuranX (talk) 22:08, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There was no threat made or intended ThuranX, we both know that good and well. There is no need for you to make such comments threatening me. I was simple saying that I would not stand for vandalism and that is what a one sided story is, to slide by on the page. I stated that I do not care what is done with it so long as it stays neutral, so I don't see how you could possibly claim that as being "absolutism". Remember, I was the one who opened up the discussion. I have no claim as being the ultimate authority of this article, if I did I would not have started a discussion about it. Just use some common sense before you try to threaten me. Thanks. Rtr10 (talk) 00:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Huckabee's band
Please don't remove the wikilink for Capitol Offense from the lede. Red links aren't bad, especially when there's a high likelihood they'll turn blue soon. Bellwether B  C  01:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Redlinks are not to appear in the lead. Nonetheless, thank you for turning it blue.  =David ( talk )( contribs ) 02:59, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware that redlinks were never allowed in the lead. Is that policy, guideline, or just a rule-of-thumb? It's nice to know, though, as I plan to do a lot of article writing, and also to assist my students in even more. Bellwether B  C  03:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * My apologies; I've looked through policies and guidelines, and though I thought it was put down somewhere, I cannot find it. I've always seen a tendency to keep redlinks out of the lead as much as possible, though...maybe it's just something personal.  My profuse apologies; carry on!  =David ( talk )( contribs ) 03:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's no big deal. I usually don't advocate for redlinks anywhere in an article, but with one that's so obviously going to be a blue link at some point, I thought an exception would be in order. Then I decided to just go ahead and get at least a stub added tonight. Bellwether B  C  03:39, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Guilt by association smear
"Governor Huckabee was a keynote speaker at the Southern Baptist 1998 Convention in Salt Lake City [183] in which one convention sermon offered by a different minister referred to Salt Lake City as "headquarters of a counterfeit Christianity."[184] " This sentence should be removed from the article because it does not refer to something Huckabee said or did. This is a guilt by association smear. The question of Huckabee's views on Mormonism should only include information that Huckabee himself provided and not include what his associates said or did. Jmegill (talk) 01:41, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed. Thank you for noticing this.  =David ( talk )( contribs ) 02:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Southern Baptists and racist past

 * This is curious topic that seems to be applied differently depending upon the individual. Mitt Romney's page talks about his ancestors and their practice of polygamy, which would seem to a similar attempt to smear by association with Mormonism. I wonder if it would not be appropriate to discuss the racial issues of the Southern Baptist Convention; the only reason this church exists is because of their commitment to slavery, which did not change until the mid 1970's when Huckabee was graduating from his Baptist college. SBC Churches did not even allow blacks to be members of the vast majority of their churches. This would seem to be a volatile topic, but true none-the-less. --Storm Rider (talk) 09:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Romney's ancestors have a biological relationship to Romney. Huckabee's fellow pastors do not.  The Southern Baptists split off from the other Baptists in the 1840s.  Moreover, to state that "commityment to slavery, which did not change until the mid 1970's" is either highly objectionable or gross sloppiness on your part.  I doubt that there is any SBC church that was committed to slavery in the 1970s.  Jmegill (talk) 15:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The language from the SBC article states:


 * "The discontent of Baptists from the south regarding slavery eventually led to their withdrawal from the national Baptist organizations. Meeting at the First Baptist Church in Augusta, Georgia in May 1845, they formed a new convention and named it the Southern Baptist Convention. They elected as its first president William Bullein Johnson (1782-1862), who had served as president of the Triennial Convention in 1841."


 * "The consequences of the decision to separate from other Baptists in defense of the institution of slavery have been long lived. A survey by SBC's Home Mission Board in 1968 showed that only eleven percent of Southern Baptist churches would admit Americans of African descent. During the SBC Conservative Resurgence/Fundamentalist Takeover the Southern Baptist Convention of 1995 voted to adopt a resolution renouncing its racist roots and apologizing for its past defense of slavery. The racism resolution marked the denomination's first formal acknowledgment that racism played a role in its founding. Today there are many diverse and even self-consciously ethnic churches within the convention."


 * Based upon this information the very existence of the Southern Baptist Convention was based on a racist premise. Only 11% of SBC churches would even allow blacks to be members of their congregations. Maybe I am reading the article wrong, but it seems clear that they even admit their racist past. Huckabee was not just a member, he was a pastor. I think it is clear that Huckabee today completely disavows this past and is not a racist, but when he graduated in 1974 from a Baptist college was he active in working against this position? I suspect some pastors had to be active in reversing the past position.
 * As an aside, your logic Jmegill would seem to say if Huckabee's parents were proven to be racist then it would be okay to mention it because of their biological relationship. Also, do you have any proof that Hackabee was a voice for change in the SBC or was he just part of the silent majority that rejected blacks as members? That sounds much more aggressive than I wish to be, but you seem to appreciate bluntness or maybe it is just sloppy logic. --Storm Rider (talk) 17:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Did you read the article? One sentence references race relations in context of the Huckabee's local Baptist church. That sentence answers your question.  Jmegill (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * How kind of you to ask; yes, I did read this article. However, the reference, which was used for no less than 7 different statements, is for an article published in the Dallas Morning News, 9 March 1997. It provides no indication of when Huckabee was active in encouraging the all-white Immanuel Baptist Church to accept black members. Also, which Immanuel Baptist church; the one in El Dorado or Little Rock? Neither one mentions this openness on their websites, but I don't think that is significant. Does anyone have access to this newspaper article that is used so much? It would seem that is key to the conversation or I am missing something again that seems so obvious to your enlightened mind. I will make a deal with you, you start acting human and I will tone down the sarcasm; however, if you are comfortable with this tone let's continue needling each other. --Storm Rider (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The article is yours for the small price of $2.95 http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=Huckabee+Morris+Baptist+Inerrancy Or you can ask a librarian to help you get access for free.  If you would stop complaining and figure out a way to read the article, then you would learn that the church was in Pine Bluff and this was in the mid 80s.  Jmegill (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You might want to quit jumping to conclusions or stating the ridiculous. No where does the article say that Immanuel Baptist church is in Pine Bluff. If you read English you would notice that the article simply states that Huckabee as a pastor in three cities: Arkadelphia, Texarkana, and Pine Bluff, Arkansas. Not once does it say that Immanuel Baptist church is in Pine Bluff. Are you implying that he was successful in integrating all the Baptist churches in which he was pastor or are you just guessing; you certainly did not get it from reading the article.
 * Who is complaining? Can you say projection? I have remarked on an oddity; but given his run for the presidency his affiliations, and being a pastor for the SBC, are their admitted racist past seem to have some merit. For now, your narrow mind has probably said enough and it is time for other editors to comment. Is there a reason for it not to be mentioned? --Storm Rider (talk) 03:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.newsweek.com/id/74469/page/4 The church is in pine bluff. I had thought I picked up that piece of information from the article, but really it was in Newsweek. Perhaps I should have mentioned Newsweek as a source before I had you shell out 2.95 for Scott Parks. My bad. Really I don't think that the racist slur is going to work against Huckabee. The SBC's past actions on race should not be mentioned in this article because it is irrelevant to Huckabee. There is no evidence that Huckabee has racist sentiment or feelings and plenty of evidence that he cares about blacks and hispanics. For example, while Governor, he significantly increased government spending for low income children, many of whom are members of minority groups. Jmegill (talk) 04:24, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There doesn't seem to be any mention on the Obama page concerning his association with an overtly racist church.  Well as of March 2007....  See http://web.archive.org/web/20070307121338/http://www.tucc.org/about.htm and http://tucc.org/about.htm     ;-) Jlambert (talk) 04:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The 'oddity' doesn't actualyl seem to involve huckabee directly, as far as citations provided show. Your interpretations of the SBC history and huckabee's personal timeline ,and the overalpping therein is all your own SYNTH. Find some sources, and we can look at it. As is, we don't need to go for Guilt by Association. As Huckabee notes, he says enough himself to get himself in trouble. ThuranX (talk) 04:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Huckabee handles himself pretty well; he is an excellent communicator. This only came up because of the ongoing conversation over at Mitt Romney's page. Religion seems to play a role on the Republican side of things in this election. I was curious how it was being handled elsewhere. To find references about the Southern Baptist Convention having a racist past and that the majority of Southern Baptist churches denied membership is easy...as easy as it is to find references that Mormons practiced polygamy and were also racist (though they never denied blacks membership, they denied the priesthood to almost all blacks). I think the bottom line, ThuranX, is that you all are saying that being a member, or even an active leader, of an organization that may have a racist past is not relevant to an individual's article?
 * I do not support stating that Huckabee is racist simply because he is a member of the SBC; that is certainly synthesis. However, if religion is going to play a role then it would seem that religion will play a role for each candidate. The only reason the Southern Baptist Church exists today is because they broke away from other Baptists because of their belief and support of slavery. That position did not change until the middle 1970's. Huckabee graduated in the mid 1970s and then became a pastor for the SBC. Having grown up in the South, I can promise it was a topic of discussion in the 1970's. I think both are relevant and it is not synthesis to bring them up; it does seem inappropriate not to mention it. Doesn't seem like hiding the weenie to you? --Storm Rider (talk) 17:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * How is it any different from being a citizen of, say Alabama, which has a relatively recent racist past? Do we bring up segregation in every biography of every person from Alabama?
 * If the Romney article discusses Mormon polygamy, that's an issue for the Romney article talk page. --Elliskev 18:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The difference is in an order of magnitude. The church was set up and continued to practice racist policies until the mid 1970's. Alabama was not created for racist policies. I am sure you see the difference. An exaggeration, but an apt one, is like saying we should not talk about David Duke's past in the KKK when he had political ambitions. Of course we should talk about it and we did in the day. I think it is pertinent to this page and it is relevant to his history. It is an elephant in the room that everyone ignores because it is so unpleasant, but it is a fundamental part of his makeup. --Storm Rider (talk) 19:38, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, but that makes no sense. You are talking about the second largest Christian group in the United States with over 16 million members. What makes it relevant in Mike Huckabee's article? --Elliskev 22:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I just don't see the relevance. That a religion has a checkered past isn't always relevant. Look over at Gavin Newsom, where religious SYNTH is also a problem. Or, can we point out that as a Catholic, JFK should be tarred with the feathers of the inquisition? Where's the cut off, where's the limit? this is a can of worms, and I oppose opening it. ThuranX (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

(new indent) This seems to be more difficult to understand than I thought. It is understandable that for any organization, and particularly religious ones, to review history and admit wrong doing. What is applicable about this? I will be blunt. We are not talking about the bloody middle ages. We are talking about when the civil rights movement was at its peak in the 1960's. The reason the Southern Baptists church exists, by its own admission, is because of their desire to defend, protect, and promulgate slavery in the US. Their actions into the 1970's continued to be racist. This is the same church that Huckabee chose not only in which to be a member, but to become a minister. At the time of his becoming a minister Southern Baptists churches still did not allow blacks to become members of their churches. The SBC did not participate in the civil rights movement, but rather sat on the side lines. George Wallace, another SBC member, exemplifies well the mind of their membership at the time of the civil rights movement when he spoke those terrible words, "I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever". This is the church Huckabee grew up in, prospered in, and chose as his career. It was not just a passing fad, but became his life.

Think about it, we are praising him for integrating a SB church in the mid 1980's! This was well after the rest of the US had become integrated. We are giving him credit for something the rest of the world is doing? Surely you see the silliness of such a task. It is like telling a 20 year old that he has accomplished something because he no longer throws himself on the floor in a tantrum similar to a two year old; it is no accomplishment. It would have been different if he had done something at his college as a student or he was active in the civil rights movement, which he was not. He not only sat on the sidelines, but chose membership in a group that continued to have a racist culture.

It is not slanderous to Southern Baptist churches to discuss history nor is it slanderous to their membership. It is factual history. Also, just because people are unfamiliar with history does not mean it should not be known. In 1995 the SBC sought forgiveness for their past; they acknowledged it, I wonder why it should not be acknowledged here. He was more than just an active participant. --Storm Rider (talk) 01:34, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This is just nuts. You're refusing to look at this rationally. --Elliskev 02:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. It's unreasonable because it reflects a strong bias. Jlambert (talk) 05:13, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * So all southern Baptists who have Bios on wikipedia need it included that they are all bigots and racists. Understood. Then I want all catholic pages to state that they are cannibals, who excuse their sin by calling it magical transubstantiation, and that they all endorse torture because they don't condemned the Inquisition. All Jews personally held the spear that slew Jesus, all Muslims wear bombs, all Hindus worship cows not dieties, all Buddhists are Richard Gere, all Wiccans and new agers are actually satanists, all Scientologists are Fair game murderers, and so on. IF you agree to personally go make all those changes to all those pages, then we'll let you have your way on the SBC thing. No? Too ridiculous? not by your logic. You aren't listening to reason, and consensus is clearly against your edits. Please move on. ThuranX (talk) 02:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think we should lower this article to the level of nonsense that has occurred on the Mitt Romney articles by editors with anti-Mormon agendas. The history of the churches these candidates belong to is irrelevant. Alanraywiki (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I disagree with that. It's entirely possible that the religious orientation of a political figure matters incredibly. Consider Shi'a and Sunni conflicts. If Huckabee was on record espousing the racially oriented views of the SBC, that would matter, jsut as Romney's would matter more if he'd said somethign about the controversial past. HUckabee's religious views certainly matter vis-avis his declarations that his faith would guide his politics, but there's nothing there about HIS faith being a racist one, jsut that his church had a racist history. ThuranX (talk) 02:21, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Allow me one last comment and that will be it. I wanted to clarify my comment because I think ThuranX and I agree.  I am only saying past history of the churches (whether LDS, Baptist, Catholic, etc.) should be irrelevant, not the current views of either (which certainly is relevant).  Just my opinion.  Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 02:32, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Can we just close this? We're spiraling. We obviously have a consensus. Storm Rider, I've always respected the work you do here. You're not the stereotypical edit warrior. Can we move on? --Elliskev 02:24, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello Elliskev, I think you are correct and it should be left alone. The danger of this type of refusal is the old adage, when you don't remember the past, you are bound to repeat it. Though we on wikipedia try not to let the majority rule, we regrettably allow them to do so. I chose to bring the topic up on the discussion page because I refused to edit the article with such a volatile comment in an election period. It is anathema to those who are politically motivated and it is equally offensive from a religious perspective. To me it is (forgive the pun) black and white. Let's move on; this topic is too volatile for rational discussion. --Storm Rider (talk) 02:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with ThuranX and Alanraywiki to a certain extent. I think it would be ridiculous to start talking about Huckabee's religious organization's past beliefs. Doing so would mean we would have to go through every Democratic politician's article and say that their political party was founded on a pro-slavery platform. Then we would have to go through every Republican politician's article and say that their political party was founded on an anti-slavery platform. This would mean getting way off subject. I still don't understand why Storm Rider doesn't seem to understand that, but I'm glad to see he has gotten past this, so I will go ahead and close the discussion. Diligent Terrier • talk | sign here 20:56, 22 February 2008 (UTC)