Talk:Monnow Bridge

1900 "gift"
"A brass plaque attached to the front of Monnow Gate, along with the influence of the Somersets at Raglan, has led many to the erroneous conclusion that the Dukes of Beaufort had some ancient claim on the monument. However, Monnow Gate was directly associated with that family only from 1830 until 1900. In 1830 the duke accepted Monnow Gate in exchange for property which the corporation wanted at the Beaufort Arms yard. For the remainder of the century the gate continued mostly in disuse, or at the most in use as a storeroom. At the turn of this century, as some of the Beaufort estates were being sold, His Grace decided to present the gate to the County Council as they already owned the bridge." Worthy of any mention? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 16:20, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I now have an entire book about the history of the bridge - M Rowlands, Monnow Bridge and Gate. I'm sure it will give more info on the plaque and its background, and I'll include it in due course if no-one else gets in first.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:43, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that's exactly the same source as quoted on that castlewales.com page! Martinevans123 (talk) 17:52, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I know, but the book is a lot longer..... Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
 * PS: I've now added a few details about the plaque, and other things, from the book. If you need to know any more about the bridge and gatehouse, the book has extremely full details, which I can add on request!  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:46, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * For how long was it a dwelling, who lived it - and why!? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 1705 to before 1804; and, gatekeepers. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that kind of fits! But one assumes just a gatekeeper, and not his family also. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Later activities and works
Last time used for defense of Monmouth? - Chartist Rebelion - John Bull (London, England), Sunday, December 15, 1839; pg. 592; Issue 992. ....the arched gateway of Monnow Bridge leading to the town, has likewise been put in a state of defence Berrow's Worcester Journal (Worcester, England), Saturday, April 30, 1892; pg. 6 Issue 10359. 19th Century British Library Newspapers Part II.

Found this article in Berrow Worcester Journel ref above: "Monnow Bridge Monmouth is now under repair. Its an interesting structure. A gate surmounted by a loop holed keep or watch tower, stands at the head of the bridge on the town side which was used for defensive purposes for the last time in 1839, when the Chartists were in Newport and an attack in Monmouth was anticipated". Antarchie (talk) 20:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Berrow's Worcester Journal claims to be "the oldest surviving newspaper in the World". Martinevans123 (talk) 20:58, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Monnow Bridge Tower
In pursuit of Mary Ellen Bagnall-Oakeley's Monnow Bridge Tower pamphlet, I have contacted the following: I have drawn a blank in every case. My last thought is M.L.J. Rowlands, via his publisher. Any other thoughts on possible locations/leads would be much appreciated. KJP1 (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Monmouth Library and Monmouth Museum;
 * Librarians at both Haberdashers Schools - MSG had Mary Ellen on its board and MS has an extensive local archive;
 * Newport Central Library;
 * Bristol Central Library;
 * National Library of Wales;
 * Bangor University Library - their catalogue says they have a copy but they can't find it;
 * Monmouthshire Antiquarian Association;
 * Clifton Antiquarian Association;
 * Gwent County Records Office;
 * Gwent County History Association.
 * And then Newport Library digs a little deeper and turns it up. KJP1 (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Congratulations
Great to see this promoted. Excellent work people!♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:31, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

Frias Bridge, Burgos


This makes an interesting comparison. Was this what the top of the Monnow Bridge originally looked like? KJP1 (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

TFAR
Today's featured article/requests/Monnow Bridge --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

"British Listed Buildings" reference
A key reference ( , credited to "Good Stuff") is to the entry on the British Listed Buildings website (http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300002218-monnow-bridge-and-gateway-monmouth). British Listed Buildings is, as I understand it, essentially a repurposing of existing public-domain (?) data from official agencies, with crowd-sourced photos. The same text appears at http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/Welshsites/582.html suffixed with the words "(Listed Building Report)". So my hunch is that the BLB text actually comes from an official CADW publication or report, and shouldn't be credited to "Good Stuff"...but I've not been able to find the original. Any thoughts? Dave.Dunford (talk) 09:36, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Hi Dave - my understanding of the chronology, which may well be wrong, is as follows: for a long time British Listed Buildings Online (BLBO) was the "official" on-line site for listed building records. When Historic England (HE) was split off from English Heritage under the last government, it took over responsibility for the on-line listings for England, and the listings were copied over and are now maintained and updated by HE on its own site, while BLBO is no longer updated. Sometime early, under devolution, CADW, under its Coflein arm, took over responsibility for Welsh listings, but unfortunately, as Coflein staff have acknowledged to me, they did not do a great job on the main listings, which in most cases are rather "minimal". However, buried away here,, you can find a map based site that gives the more detailed text - which is a straight lift from BLBO, with some, occasional, updating, see Monnow Bridge and Gatehouse, here (CADW)  and here, (BLBO).
 * Sorry for the long explanation, but the bottom line, I think, is that the BLBO site is a perfectly valid and reliable source to use, indeed I use it very extensively for architecture articles. That said, if people would prefer we use the CADW/Coflein, I can do that, although the actual text will be identical. But I can't get to it just now, as I'm in Athens, and it's a pain to do on the laptop. I'm back before it's due on the front page, however, and can certainly address it then, if needed.  All the best.  KJP1 (talk) 16:02, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * No, BLBO is not, and has never been, an official site – you may be thinking of Images of England (which was an official Millennium project based on a snapshot of the English listing data, and is similarly not updated). BLBO may be a valid source to cite, but it's very much a secondary source: it isn't official, the list of sites is based on a snapshot that doesn't get (regularly) updated and, for English properties at least, the text is a copy of that on the official listing. For example, compare a random English BLBO entry with the same building on the official NHLE site: the former even has the same OCR errors ("I704" for "1704") as the original. See also the "about" information at BLBO, particularly this: "BritishListedBuildings.co.uk is an independent online resource and is not associated with any government department. All government data published here is used under licence. Please do not contact BritishListedBuildings.co.uk for any queries related to any individual listed building, planning permission related to listed buildings or the listing process itself."


 * For English listings, the official NHLE site is definitely the better reference, as it's the official source and the one that gets updated (I know this for a fact, as I've personally sent listing corrections to Historic England (formerly English Heritage) that have appeared on NHLE immediately). However, for Welsh sites I've not been able to find out where BLBO gets its descriptive text from (until a relatively recent upgrade, it didn't have any text at all for non-English sites) but I'm almost certain (as a former user) that BLBO is not the original source and the original (if available online) would be preferable. Dave.Dunford (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * As you've already found (and I had overlooked), the original text from CADW is at http://cadwpublic-api.azurewebsites.net/reports/listedbuilding/FullReport?lang=en&id=2218 – BLBO has copied this data, not the other way round. There doesn't appear to be a citation template for CADW listings, as there is for NHLE, so I'll just adjust the citation manually, if that's OK with you? Dave.Dunford (talk) 17:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Dave, just to be clear, I didn't say BLBO ever was an official site, hence my use of quote marks. But I think it was, for quite a while, the only on-line source for listing records. And, again for accuracy, I'm not at all sure BLBO did "copy" from CADW. I think they are both using the same original source, namely the UK governmental listings compiled from the 1940s/50s onwards. Lastly, BLBO's certainly had Welsh listings as long as I've been on Wikipedia (about 10 years), because I've used them extensively, and I suspect it has had them for much longer than that, to a time pre-dating the existence of CADW, although not the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales.
 * All that said, I've absolutely no problem at all with using CADW as the source, if that's felt to be preferable, or with you amending the citations as suggested. Regards. KJP1 (talk) 18:01, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Gotcha, and sorry if I misinterpreted you – I wasn't trying to be combative, and I should have read your words more carefully. I've not been heavily involved in heritage topics on Wikipedia as long as you have, but I've been interested long enough to remember the time when BLBO was the most usable (if not the most definitive) online source – which is why I was a BLBO contributor for a while. But I do think it's best to cite (and credit) the original source where possible, so I'll change the citation now. Dave.Dunford (talk) 18:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Dave, no problem at all, and many thanks for making the amendment. It's always great to encounter editors with similar interests, both in the subject matter and in having well-cited articles.  Now, off to dinner - the Greeks eat late!  All the best, KJP1 (talk) 18:39, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation
The point re. pronunciation of the Welsh name is well made - I see we did it for Castell Coch. I shall try and work it out and put it in, but any offer from a Welsh-speaking editor who knows what they're doing would be much appreciated! KJP1 (talk) 18:50, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * My Welsh-speaking sister-in-law has now provided a Welsh pronunciation. KJP1 (talk) 07:38, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Uniqueness
The article on Monmouth claims there are only three such bridges in Europe; here, it is not repeated, but it is stated it's the only in Britain. A reader visiting the article on bridge tower is surely bound to be confused, for the list is much longer there, and even 14th c examples are numerous. It might be that the claims are true in their strict wording, but the general impression is still somewhat confusing. --146.255.182.91 (talk) 09:02, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Such claims are almost never useful. "Rare" is the most we should bother stating. The problem is that there are many bridges and towers, and only one called "Monnow bridge". It's probably true that there are only "three similar bridges", but what that doesn't tell us is how narrow the definition had to be drawn to limit it so much  (I think it's based on them being footbridges) - thus it's not a useful measure as a count unless the definition is given too.
 * I'd switch it out for "rare". That's the only aspect which is really relevant to Monnow. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:42, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Apologies - only just noticed this. I can't answer for the Monmouth article but the claim here, that Monnow Bridge is the only remaining fortified river bridge in Great Britain with its gate tower standing on the bridge (my bold), is pretty well referenced I think. KJP1 (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2018 (UTC)