Talk:Monsignor

Monsignors in the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham / St Peter
"Msgr. Newton was a bishop in the Church of England before being received into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church in 2011. Shortly after, he was ordained a priest and appointed to lead the ordinariate. As he explained, “I have the authority of a bishop, but because I am married, I am not able to be ordained a bishop.” http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2017/07/23/former-anglican-bishop-finds-a-home-in-the-catholic-church/

Another former Anglican bishop translated to Monsignor: http://www.catholicworldreport.com/2014/12/02/from-anglican-bishop-to-catholic-monsignor/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randal Oulton (talk • contribs) 19:18, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Article rework needed
This article needs to be reworked. The primary use of this title in English is as a class of persons, those of honorary prelates. Also, I don't think Msgrs. lose their title's anymore when the pope dies. There are other problems as well. I shall return!! (give me two or three days)--Samuel J. Howard 03:07, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

If you check the motu proprio Pontificalis domus, you will note that the honorary members of the papal household mentioned in this article lose their office at the sede vacante. Pmadrid 22:03, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Specifically Section 3, #3. The English translation furnished by the USCCB reads:


 * The term of office [of members of the Pontifical Family and the Pontifical Chapel] expires when the Apostolic See becomes vacant, though the obligation remains to be available, according to the functions of each member, for the normal carrying on of ordinary business and of the various ceremonies celebrated during this period, according to the pertinent instructions of the Sacred College.


 * As this was issued during Paul VI's pontificate (and I don't think John Paul II reformed this), it should still be in effect. Pmadrid 05:48, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * "These members of the Pontifical Family hold their honor during the lifetime of the appointing Pope. Once a sede vacante occurs, they can no longer use the title monsignor."


 * I'm not so sure that they stop being Monsignors once the Pope passes away. The pastor of the church that I attend is a Monsignor who was appointed a "Prelate of Honor" by John Paul II.  He continued to represent himself as a Monsignor during the sede vacante and continues to now with Benedict XVI.  I think the regulation above bears closer examination to see if Monsignors actually lose their title during a sede vacante or if it's talking about officials in the Vatican.
 * JesseG 06:04, May 19, 2005 (UTC)


 * While it is true that certain ranks of Monsignor lost their title upon the death of the Pope, that practiced ceased with the revision of the Papal Household under Paul VI. In the very document that you quoted, notice it uses the term "office" and not title. A Monsignor is not an office but a title, and a title does not lapse with the death of the Pope.
 * Jbebeau 04:30, August 11, 2006 (UTC)


 * The laws concerning the Roman Curia were covered under the various Pastor bonus constitutions issued by Paul VI and John Paul II. The Pontifical Family and Chapel were covered under Pontificalis domus.  These are seperate entities from the Roman Curia, though some members of the curia are also members of the family and chapel.


 * Though, you do have a point. Most people who are monsignors are still using the title.  There are four possibilities as to why this happened:
 * the pope granted dispensations from the law to these monsignors,
 * the law has been revised (but we don't know where),
 * Benedict re-appointed the monsignori, just as he did the Cardinal Secretary of State, or
 * the monsignors are ignoring the law.


 * I really doubt it's the last one, so we should probably look into this. If you can contact the pastor of the church and ask if you could see the brief appointing him Prelate of Honor, perhaps we could get some insight. Pmadrid 05:49, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Statement added
I added a statement about a Monsignor being able to request that his promotion not be made public, as I personally know of a case where this has happened. I am a member of the St. Raphael's Cathedral parish in Dubuque, Iowa. Priests who are assigned to the Cathedral parish as pastor are customarily raised to the rank of Monsignor. We recently learned that the pastor who had been there prior to the current pastor had been made a Monsignor by John Paul II back around 1983. But at the time he had requested that his being raised to that rank not be made public, and only a handful of people knew that he was a Monsignor. It remained that way for over 20 years until he publically revealed it a couple weeks ago. He said that he didn't consider himself truly worthy of the honor, and even after he made the announcement that he still wanted to be called Father. JesseG 06:13, May 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * Different countries, different customs. In Germany there is one prelate calling himself Father directly, the Pope; and some that call themselves Father latinized, religious clergy, and the other probably wouldn't consider themselfes worthy of the title Father, opting for Reverend, Monsignor, Right Reverend Mr. Prelate, or Your Excellency or Eminency instead, or the respective more colloquial forms such as Mr. Parishpriest, Mr. Canon of the Cathedral, Mr. Prelate, Mr. Bishop, Mr. Cardinal. --77.4.46.189 (talk) 08:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Episcopalians
The article says at the start that some Episcopalian clergy use this title, but then doesn't go on to mention who or why. Can someone who knows fill it out? The Wednesday Island 21:09, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The article states the title is used in the Anglican church, but I've never encountered it in either the Anglican or Episcopal churches. We need a source for that statement or it should be removed from the article. Monsignor is a Roman Catholic church title like that of cardinal and is Italian in origin.  It is an honorific title which means a priest who is given the title of monsignor isn't a bishop.  It has nothing to do with Roman or Anglican levels of Holy Orders (deacon, priest, bishop).


 * The problem with this article is that it mixes pre-1968 (Pontificalis Domus) titles with post-1968 titles. Looks like someone just transferred information from the old Catholic Encyclopedia article which is fine but that information needs to be labelled as historical data and not current practice. Pontificalis Domus abolished many of the priviledges including the use of pontificals by Prothonotaries. --Highdesert 03:01, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I noticed someone who is a vicar general in the Church of England being styled as Monsignor. – Kaihsu (talk) 06:50, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Where did you see the title Monsignor attributed to Canon Dirk van Leeuwen? The word "Monsignor" does not appear in the cited source.  Esoglou (talk) 08:39, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The title is used in the caption of the second photograph on the page. – Kaihsu (talk) 17:21, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry. When I click on the link you gave, no photograph appears.  Only advertisements.  So I cannot help.  Esoglou (talk) 18:48, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Try this one: http://www.eglise-orthodoxe.be/Z-Nouvelles_2005-2008/Veille_Oecumenique2007.html – Kaihsu (talk) 17:07, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this was the website you had in mind when you earlier spoke of "the caption of the second photograph". I apologize for having misunderstood.  I had only noticed the first of the two sources you gave, that from the Anglican Church Times.  I should have read more carefully.  As for the news item on the website of the Orthodox Church in Belgium, which because of my fault you have had to cite anew, I don't think it is a reliable source for Anglican usage in English.  It isn't even a reliable source for Catholic usage in English, since it uses "Mgr" for the bishops it mentions.  That is Catholic usage in French (and Italian and Spanish), but not generally in English, a language in which the title of Monsignor is usually employed only for clergy who are not bishops.  Again, I beg pardon for my mistake.  Esoglou (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem at all: we are just trying to discuss and sort things out. I see that the person mentioned above styles himself ‘Mgr Dirk van Leeuwen’ on a couple of famous social-media sites. – Kaihsu (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I have seen at least one Anglican bishop in Quebec, Canada, referred to as "Monsignor ..." instead of "Bishop ..." on the French language version of the diocese's website. Whether this happens with Anglican clergy in other predominantly French language regions I do not know but it wouldn't suprise me. The custom, however, is probably idiosyncratic and not an official use. In predomininantly English speaking regions, as Esoglou says above, Roman Catholic bishops are not usually referred to by this title. Anglicanus (talk) 09:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Titular prothonotary
Apparently, Fr. Wach was a vicar general in the late 70s, and styled himself a monsignor then, well after the simplifications of Pope Paul VI. As a reference for this kind of prelate existing, it is not obvious is has anything to do with a special indult. Practically, probably few priests are appointed vicar general who are not already a monsignor of some form. Also, "pileo" is confusing - "floccis" seems like a biretta tuft, but another section of the text uses the word "bireta" "Pileo" should be a zuccheto but I wouldn't have any idea what "floccis" would be. Or could it mean some other kind of hat? Gimmetrow 02:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

In fact, Wach was well known for continuing to wear a lot of stuff totally suppressed by Ut Sive Sollicite, including stuff that was exclusive to bishops even before 1969. Tassells, buckles, etc. See the link, where someone actually approached an official of the Roman congregations about his practice, and "got a good laugh." http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:_TcOHiNhaIIJ:pub25.bravenet.com/forum/2134721637/fetch/444279/+vicar+general+protonotary+munere&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=6 ...wach is apprently an, ahem, unreliable source of information about his own current titles and privileges. A floccis is a tuft of wool in Latin....no zucchettos have tufts.HarvardOxon 04:46, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, isn't that what I said about "floccis"? As for Fr. Wach, yes, I am discovering some issues. If something is "durante munere" there is no privilege for being that someting emeritis. He apparently was ordained by John Paul II, which seems to give some privileges independent of this monsignor thing. But he should be governed by whatever rules were in place at the time of his appointment(s). Monsignors appointed before 1968, for instance, retained some of the privileges after 1968. Gimmetrow 13:41, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * "Monsignors appointed before 1968, for instance, retained some of the privileges after 1968." That is also my understanding - a PA created prior to 1968 could still enjoy the use of pontificals.--Highdesert 16:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Abbreviations
In French (Canadian French, at least) when the last letter of an abbreviation matches the last letter of the word, you do not put a period afterwards. Thus, the "Mgr" abbreviation is rendered Mgr Jones (not Mgr. Jones). I'll correct this in the article, but it seems likely that well-meaning people will put the period back in... -- Mecandes (talk) 14:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Same goes for English actually. Some style manuals make a distinction between "contractions" (e.g. Mr Smith) and abbreviations (Prof. Smith). Wikipedia calls this "formal British English" (here). MOS:ABBR stays silent on this as well, so in my own deliberate judgement I'll be bold and change
 * In English, it is abbreviated Msgr. or Mons. In French, it is abbreviated Mgr (without the period/full stop).
 * to
 * In English, it is abbreviated Msgr or Mons. In French, it is abbreviated Mgr.
 * Please feel free to revert since I recognize that this is just my own unilateral action. 118.90.1.29 (talk) 05:56, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Origin and meaning of the title
While it is true that English borrowed the title from the French (in which is means something roughly equivalent to "my lord," (in modern French, mind you) the French, in turn, borrowed the title from the Italians, where it originated during the period prior to the complete split of the Romance languages. In Latin, the title means "wise one".  I know that this is the case, but I was wondering if anyone could find any documentation on this, as the title often leads to misunderstanding amongst the more persistent Catholic detractors.

supersoulty (talk) 01:27, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The "mon-" part shows that even the Italians borrowed the word from French. A curiously similar usage in French is the use of "un milord" (from English "My Lord") to refer to an English lord or a very rich person. Lima (talk) 08:30, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * "Mon" is also to Latin word for "one" (mono). In the Early Middle Ages, it was often debated who should be allowed elect an Abbot of a monastery.  In many places, it was decided that the choice should be left to the "Seniora Para" (sp)... Latin for the "Wiser Part," meaning the elders (this idea would later be applied to Papal Elections.)  The word was often used in the Church of that time to describe a person who was considered "wise" either by true virtue, or by age.


 * And not to sound arrogant, but people who have no experience with linguistics or etymology often assume that words are static, and always mean the samething, but words change. French derives from Latin, which means that it would have meant the same thing in French and Latin for hundreds of years, before it drifted to mean "My Lord" (and the relationship between the term "Wise One" and "My Lord" is a pretty clear cut one, ans etymologies go... its easy to see how that could happen).  The term "Monsignor" predates this drift, and no one would have thought to change it afterwards.  Again, I don't have the documentation, which is why I am wondering if someone else does.


 * supersoulty (talk) 22:47, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * "Mon" in French means "my" (if associated with a masculine noun); "seigneur" (French) and "signore" (Italian) are derived from the Latin word "senior"; the phrase used with regard to elections was "maior et sanior pars", not "... senior pars", still less "... seniora para", which isn't Latin. But let us simply consult the authorities: for instance, the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.  Lima (talk) 05:20, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Signore used to mean Lord. Monsignore is taken because Signore has shifted and means now just Mister. That's it. No need for "Wiser Part" or anything of the kind. However, "Your Lordship" should now be considered superior since it is apparently reserved for bishops. --77.4.46.189 (talk) 08:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Nearly half the links are dead
I tried to clean up all these dead links but I ended up breaking all the templates. I'm pretty basic/old-school when it comes to refs and I only rely on templates for adding archived URLs. Some of the links do not have an archive that I could find. There's also that NYT article behind a paywall and a Catholic News article that's not dead, but it looks like it redirects to the current home page (no article). I wonder if most of these could be updated with new links or if the links are really needed -- most of these just looked like lists of members from around 2009 or so. Belltoes (talk) 17:46, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified
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Wrong Combination
The written form "The Reverend Monsignor" is a wrong combination! (It is a tautology) Monsignor stands alone. If one will use the other ecclesiastical honorific "reverend" the pronoun "Mon" has to be excluded. The correct form has to be "The Reverend Sir...", The Very Reverend Sir" The Most Reverend Sir - the Italian form Reverendissimo Monsignore doesn't exist (same in Latin). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.168.220.127 (talk) 20:00, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, that's wrong. Sure, Reverend happens to be redundant for a Monsignor - so you normally won't call a Monsignor "Reverend Monsignor" in casual or even formal talk, leastways not if he is not Monsignor of a higher rank and you want to make a distinction. Just the same, you won't call a archbishop "your most reverend Grace" or "your most reverend Excellency", unless perchance a duke or resp. ambassador is also present and you wish to make a distinction.
 * Nevertheless, Monsignors are Very Reverend, the highest rank of them even "Right Reverend", so you can use that title (also a simple Reverend, of course, because the title is tautological after all), which will come in useful if you write a letter, or just wish for a couple of more syllables in your address.--131.159.76.244 (talk) 18:56, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Right Reverend Monsignor and Very Reverend Monsignor don't exist anymore. Instead, use Reverend Monsignor for those and new Monsignors. Carlm0404 (talk) 17:06, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

bishops
The article explains that M is not usually used in English for bishops, but the lead implies that it is. I suggest something like "Monsignor is an honorific form of address for those members of the clergy of the Catholic Church including honorary prelates and canons. It is the common term in Romance languages for a bishop and so while it is not used this way in English, it is used occasionally to refer in English to a bishop from a Romance-language community"--Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

pronunciation
I am an English-speaker from North America. I have always heard it pronounced by English-speakers with a hard r on the end. I suggest the phonetic pronunciation be removed. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

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External links modified (February 2018)
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tightening of granting of Reverend Monsignor
This is noted in recent changes. Jorge Bergoglio, future Pope Francis, was from religious order and not expected ever to have been Reverend Monsignor himself. Reverend Monsignor title was not revoked for those already having it. Carlm0404 (talk) 16:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)