Talk:Mt. Royal/MICA station

Name
Where are you getting the longer name from? the MTA website and map only seem to use the shorter name. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:20, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * In real life, the signage at the station and on the announcements exclusively refer to it as "University of Baltimore". Per WP:COMMONNAME it doesn't make sense to exclude that from the title considering even the train operators don't call it anything else. The MTA website / maps are not really reliable sources for information about their own stops; they are known to put different names for the same station in different documents / press releases. Middle river exports (talk) 22:22, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Like everything else, article names are subject to WP:RS and WP:V. Signage and on-board announcements that are not reflected in reliable, verifiable sources are not sufficient for article naming. Please do not move articles unless such reliable and verifiable sources are available. If there is likely to be any objection over moves - as I am objecting now - you need to request moves via WP:RM. Please revert your moves and use the RM process. Thank you, Pi.1415926535 (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I will not be reverting the move. I will be filling out the article with more sources and updating it as is appropriate. Signage and on-board announcements are both more reliable and verifiable than the MTA website as I clarified, but I will also include textual citations. Per WP:COMMONNAME, it would be incorrect not to keep the name as reverting the change would go against the principle of using the recognizable and commonly understood name. Middle river exports (talk) 22:52, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Sources to include:
 * From the Baltimore Sun, 17 May 1992, "Baltimore's light rail more than ready [...]" (Edward Gunts):
 * > At the same time, others wanted stops so much they paid for them when the state was going to eliminate them to save money. A development group headed by Leroy Merritt and David Bavar paid $254,000 to cover the cost of the Timonium Business Park stop, which carries employees practically to the doorstep of several buildings in the area. The University of Baltimore agreed to pay $350,000 for a stop at Mount Royal Avenue and Dolphin Street, near its campus. University President Mebane Turner says he believes the line will be a boon to the campus because it makes it more accessible to students.
 * The station was initially built at the request of the University of Baltimore.
 * More recent documentation of the continued relationship with the University of Baltimore:
 * Public property record documenting a transfer of land from University of Baltimore to Maryland Transit Administration in 2008: https://mdlandrec.net/tmp1/landrec/2022-03-31/images/D6100E87-DB80-2489-D303E2CE1F808929/pdf/D615D951-0922-A0EF-019C056AB69E949D.pdf
 * Another including planning map of station area: https://mdlandrec.net/tmp1/landrec/2022-03-31/images/D6100E87-DB80-2489-D303E2CE1F808929/pdf/D62F3A0D-E8AB-8213-1B17B9D4A5F8E75C.pdf
 * 2007 ground lease documenting the permission from University of Baltimore required for use prior to land transfer: https://mdlandrec.net/tmp1/landrec/2022-03-31/images/D6100E87-DB80-2489-D303E2CE1F808929/pdf/D6303BF5-AC97-10BD-760E7CB2764D18D1.pdf
 * Various reports from reliable secondary sources that refer to it using the Univ. of Baltimore name:
 * https://www.ntsb.gov/safety/safety-studies/Documents/SIR0102.pdf
 * https://baltometro.org/sites/default/files/bmc_documents/general/transportation/transit/access-to-rail-stations_1-intro.pdf
 * This is from the MTA but not on their front-facing website - this is the information which gets projected on signage, used in announcements, etc. http://www.mtanexttrain.net/LATA.MTA.MobileSite.Web/Home/TrainLocationSchematicMap
 * The MICA name is never included in practice; it's essentially a marketing tactic that has never been reflected in secondary sources, officiating documents involving the MTA and other parties, or in common use. Whereas the University of Baltimore name comes from an official agreement with that university. Middle river exports (talk) 23:18, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Further looking at the Baltimore Sun archives, there is only one article from 2018 referring to the station as "Mt. Royal / MICA". The use of "University of Baltimore / Mt. Royal" is documented in several articles spanning from 2001 to 2021. Prior to 2001, the station was referred to as just the "University of Baltimore stop" (and likewise the "University of Baltimore turnoff" referred to the Penn Station spur), but 2005 was the last time it was referred to by only the university name.Middle river exports (talk) 23:31, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
 * All of those sources that you linked predate the 2017 rebranding, under which several stations were renamed. More recent official sources, such as the 2018 Cornerstone Plan, use the shorter name.


 * Signage and on-board announcements are not considered reliable or verifiable sources because they are not published in any meaningful sense. (Yes, one can physically go to the stations, but signage is frequently changed, and on-board announcements are inherently ephemeral. Reliable sources must be published either in a non-changeable physical format (books, journals, etc), and/or on the internet where archives can create a permanent copy.) Using them as the basis of page moves is wholly original research. Whether or not you feel the official website is reliable, it is the only recent verifiable published source for the station names that seems to be available - and as the official website, it carries a fair amount of weight.


 * Consensus for potentially controversial moves is not optional; per WP:RM, that needs to come from a talk page discussion or a formally requested move. It is your responsibility to follow that procedure; since you have refused to do so, I will revert the moves if you do not provide reliable and verifiable recent sources for the names. As a rule of thumb, unless there is a source that specifically announces or discusses the station name being changed, the move will be sufficiently controversial that you should request the move rather than boldly moving. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 23:34, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Middle river exports (talk) 23:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC) The signage nor the on-board announcements are not frequently changed on the Baltimore Light Rail. See my comment about the date spans of the names, the University of Baltimore name has been used in 2021; the MICA name has not. This statement: "Whether or not you feel the official website is reliable, it is the only recent verifiable published source for the station names that seems to be available - and as the official website, it carries a fair amount of weight." shows that you have not actually looked at my links or sources, as one of them is from the MTA official website, in the section that actually shows the live transit feed with station names. I linked it to demonstrate the fact that the name is still in use in MTA official sources and that there is no evidence that the MTA is consistent in their name use. Please read more carefully in the future. Middle river exports (talk) 23:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Are there post-2017 published sources that use the long name? Mackensen (talk) 00:23, 1 April 2022 (UTC)


 * 2021 Baltimore Sun: https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/readers-respond/bs-ed-rr-0809-red-line-roundup-20210806-imwsilojpjb2tbz4jk5xt62frq-story.html
 * 2019, the MICA website calls it the University of Baltimore stop and not the MICA stop: https://www.mica.edu/iss/newly-admitted-international-students/arriving-to-mica/
 * 2020, Maryland Transit Administration brochure (you can see the date in the schedule) says University of Baltimore/Mt. Royal on the map on page 18 of the PDF: https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-staging/mta-website-staging/files/Brochures/MARC_Rider_Guide_02_2020.pdf
 * The official website for the light rail said University of Baltimore until just recently... now it just says Mount Royal: http://www.mtanexttrain.net/LATA.MTA.PublicSite/Home/TrainLocationSchematicMap
 * The long name including both MICA and University of Baltimore is just a combination like some other articles for items with multiple names have to avoid confusion. I think either Mt. Royal station (light rail) might be the least confusing name after further consideration as it is the only consistent part of the name. University of Baltimore/Mt. Royal is definitely the most common but there has never been a consistent name for this stop. --Middle river exports (talk) 23:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Baltimore Light RailLink which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 08:18, 25 January 2024 (UTC)