Talk:Mukhtar Mai

Not a council but a gathering?
had changed the phrase "allegedly on the demands of a mob or, by some accounts, a council of a local clan" to "by a council of a local clan" I know that it is widely reported that it was a council, but in the interest of accuracy, the characterization of the akath - a spontaneous group of people - as a "council" is probably misleading.

Would you agree with this phrasing: "allegedly on the demands of tribesmen &mdash; or, by some accounts, on the orders of a tribal council &mdash;  of a local clan".68.20.37.195 18:38, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-- agree with above wording, though it can be argued that there was a 'council' AND a mob. The council (as it was) did set the punishment - so while there was a mob, it was the members of the council who set the punishment. There is a significant difference b/w a rape being carried out because a mob got out of hand, and b/w a directed rape ordered by the leaders of that mob.

A Good Mullah for a Change?
Shouldn't it be added in the article that it was the Imam of a local mosque, who was outraged to hear of Mukhtaran's plight, and not only gave her moral support, but also told her that Allah was on her side? Most importantly, it was he, who advised her to file a Police report and pursue the case in court.

Don't you realize, that if you are told that Allah is on your side by your local Imam, what a great source of badly needed psychological strength this would have been for you, at a time when you are traumatized and just don't know what to do?

Credit the mullah's good deed in this article, someone please, in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.251.135.12415:25, June 19, 2005 (talk)

Feminism?
Why is this article in the category of Feminists? --68.80.188.204 June 28, 2005


 * Perhaps because in the years following the gang-rape, Mukhtaran has (in the words of one of the NY Times abstracts) "...emerged as (a) ferocious spokeswoman against honor killings, rapes and acid attacks on women"? In my understanding of the term "feminist," at least in the broad sense of a person who promotes the betterment of women, Mukhtaran qualifies for these actions she has undertaken. &mdash;Ryanaxp June 28, 2005 17:25 (UTC)
 * She is certainly a feminist, by nearly any definition of the word. --Lee Hunter 28 June 2005 17:36 (UTC)
 * I can understand the confusion, especially from a Western perspective. After all, I would imagine that nearly all Americans, for example, are against honor killings and related practices, yet they wouldn't consider themselves "feminists" because they feel generally content with the status of women in the US.

Clean up?
In my opinion this article is in major need of clean up. I found the the description of events to be poorly written and hard to follow. I had to read through it several times to understand what exactly had happen. Details like "twilight lasted until about 7:48 PM" are irrelevant and only cludder the narrative. Since the article is featured on the Main Page I wanted to see what others thought before I made any changes. --BrokenStoic 28 June 2005 23:45 (UTC)


 * I agree, go for it. I am willing to see what you propose. As long as the article remains factual and neutral, I personally have no problem. Thanks.--Anonymous editor June 29, 2005 00:13 (UTC)


 * IMHO most of this article (mainly the factual part) should be in wikinews and not in wikipedia. My 2 cents.

Name of Muktharan Mai
Muktharan Mai is also called Sameera Reddy? What's up?


 * That was vandalism. Good thing you changed it back.

What about the boy?
The article mentions that her brother, Shakoor, was also gang-raped but then says nothign more on the issue, other than it being confirmed by a doctor in cort. Was there any furter information consequences related to that which shoudl be included in the article? Dalf | Talk 29 June 2005 01:02 (UTC)


 * No, it says that her brother, Shakoor was accused of raping a girl from the tribe that later gang-raped her. Hope that helps. --Anonymous editor June 29, 2005 01:05 (UTC)


 * No it said he was accused by the Mastoi of committing ziadti (rape, sodomy or illegal sex) or zina (fornication or adultery) with a Mastoi girl so possibly not rape. But then it goes on to say regarding when he was taken:
 * He was taken that afternoon to the residence of the main defendant, Abdul Khaliq, Salma's brother. (Shakoor testified that he had been abducted by three Mastoi men, each of whom sodomized him in a sugarcane field. The court determined, based on a doctor's testimony, that Shakoor had indeed been sodomized.)
 * Sodomy is either oral or anal sex.
 * Dalf | Talk 1 July 2005 02:07 (UTC)

"Allegedly" raped?
The rape is a matter of public record. I'm removing the word, "allegedly."--RattBoy 00:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Since the accused men were acquitted by the country's Supreme court, allegedly is indeed correct. 72.34.80.28 (talk) 01:42, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

POV inserted by Anon
The following was inserted at the beginning on 5 November 2005 by anon 205.188.117.66. I'm reverting to the previous version. If the anon's points are valid, they might belong somewhere in the article&mdash;but certainly not at the beginning.


 * Mukhtaran Bibi is one of many like her. This is a North Indian issue.
 * Cste panchatas are an offshoot of the Hindu caste framework. There are many articles on this subject:See for startersSee:http://www.epw.org.in/showArticles.php?root=2004&leaf=11&filename=7913&filetype=html
 * EPW Commentary November 20, 2004
 * A Doll's House


 * http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040118/asp/opinion/story_2798557.asp#Whose
 * Price of Honour: Caste Panchayats as Instruments of Terror
 * BRINDA KARAT


 * [ WEDNESDAY, APRIL 14, 2004 12:00:00 AM ]
 * Why is she lauded and her others ignored? This not a Muslim issue, it is not evena Hindu issue anymore as Hindu converts to other religions also apply thie heinous cruelty of the caste panchayats to impose their rules.

--RattBoy 22:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

non english words
I think these should all be removed. It makes this article very hard to follow. This is an english wiki and this article is about the events of the rape. It's not a lesson on foreign language words. It doesn't matter if you say rape in english or another language - it is still rape.--DannyBoy7783 02:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The ages of Mukhtaran and her brother Shakoor are often misreported
When the news broke in July 2002, Muktaran was widely described as a "teenager" or "teenage girl" and her age was reported as 18 or younger. Her brother's age was reported as 11 or 12.

Although her exact age is still not public, it is now commonly reported that she was 30 to 33 at the time of the rape. Her brother Shakoor is reported to have married the following year and fathered a son, which would indicate that he was significantly older than 11 or 12. In the July 2002 Time photograph, he appears visibly taller than the three adult women next to him (Mukhtaran, his mother and Dr. Attiya Inayatullah). So the press probably misreported his age. Stanwatch 22:51, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Part of the confusion may stem from the fact that Mukhtar Mai's family were uneducated, and she didn't know her own age (and still doesn't). JP 11:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

References section
I did a lot of clean up in the article and added a references section. sikander 02:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Authenticity
The whole story of Mukhtan Bib is false .It was not a gang rape.Is it plausibe that in the presence of hundered people  some people committ  gang rape.In the society of Pakistan it is immpossible .Perhapes you know  that only on suspecion 'people kill the raper .One person is daily being killed in the name of honour .How is it possible .This is the game of western N.G.Os for disrupte the Pakistan and Muslims .Mukhtarn Bibi is a tool in their hands.I am also a human rights activist.I met the investigation officer .He didn't support the story


 * It is indeed easier to ignore and refute the atrocities committed by man. If you have direct information about this topic, since you've met the investigation officer, please add to the article. Thanks

sikander 19:30, 16 December 2006 (UTC) I am from Jampur .It is near to D.G.khan'where the case of Bibe was heard in special court .The judge of that special court was Malik Zulfiqar Ali  .The advocate of accuseds was Malik Saleem .I also met the advocate several times.If there was a real case why Highy court Lahore /Multan bench acquited the all accused except one of them .He was imprisoned for life not death sentence. when the punishment of gang rape is death.It means there was a doubt in the case. Then the only  person  was imprisoned for life.and others were acquited.I shall try to meet I.O .once again.I shall collect more informations and then i shall submit these informations here. 202.125.143.69 12:30, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

How Many Rapists?
This article calls it a "gang rape", and implys more then one person was involved in the raping Mukhtan. However, in the section that discusses the rape, it only mentions Kaliq Abdul as the perpertrator. If the case was all ready settled, then it would appear he act independently, or was he assited? Does any one have more information regarding this? 69.250.142.218 (talk) 17:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Normal Pakistani life
The story of this woman is a normal story for Pakistani lifestyle. In Pakistani and in most Islamic societies, the woman is considered merely as cattle and has less rights comparative the African slaves had in U.S. before the Civil War. If we can understand the primitive character of the Islamic society, we can understant the "normality" of the men's comportament in this case. This case is a tipical situation of the civilisation clash, between liberal and free-loving outer world and the ant-humanist, narrow-minded Islamic values of the Pakistani society. This case strikingly remembers the lonely and painfull fight for freedom of the anti-comunists and anti-nazists in the 20th century. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.196.150.157 (talk) 09:31, 21 December 2007 (UTC)


 * yeah mate, thats why the most Islamic dude of the lot, the Mullah, is the one who encouraged and supported her plight to ge the offenders prosecuted. Typical ignorance of a society frought with the highest levels of rape in the world...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dil tarasha (talk • contribs) 13:36, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticism
How comes there's nothing on criticism for her? God know's there's enough. Musharraf himself made reference to people like here (http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2005/09/16/Pakistan_rape20060916.html). Then there are others both tribal leaders and those saying she bad-named pakistan. Lihaas (talk) 22:20, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Concerns about the so-called "image of Pakistan" have been mentioned in due proportion. This article is about Mukhtaran, not Pakistan. The Pakistan government's view may belong in Human rights in Pakistan, but not here.VR talk  16:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Renaming this article
I hereby solicit comment about renaming this article Mukhtar Mai. The Wikipedia jargon for renaming is "moving". It is no longer right to call her "Mukhtaran Bibi" because since she has come into international prominence the manner of addressing her has also changed. For example: It is clear we should stop calling her Mukhtaran Bibi.
 * (1) Her memoir is published under the name, "Mukhtar Mai".
 * (2) The name of the girls' school named in her honor is "Mukhtar Mai School for Girls".
 * (3) Her blog at BBC Urdu Service also has that byline (she has a collaborator who translates her thoughts into Urdu, she herself speaks only Saraiki).

Bibi and mai are in fact forms of address for females, not personal names. (So in fact she, like many of her compatriots, has only one name.) As for what bibi means, one can gather from context in reading about assaults on women in Pakistan that it means approximately 'miss'; Mukhtar herself has been unmarried (albeit divorced) since before she was raped. As she mentions twice in her memoir, mai means literally 'respected older sister', but in her culture it probably has extended meanings. (It would be nice to have somebody explain the precise meaning of "bibi" and the meaning of the formula of adding -an to a woman's name when addressing her as "bibi".)

Anybody who objects to renaming the article, please announce and explain these objections here. Hurmata (talk) 09:06, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * support' this is the way she is commonlu known as. the current name can be a redirect. Lihaas (talk) 01:50, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

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