Talk:Murder of Trang Phuong Ho

Requested move 3 August 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved to Murder of Trang Phuong Ho, per consensus. —usernamekiran (talk) 13:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Suicide of Sinedu Tadesse → The Murder of Trang Phuong Ho – The murder of Ho is the central and noteworthy element of this event, not the suicide of Tadesse. Had Tadesse murdered Ho in the Harvard dormitory and then not committed suicide, it would still be a newsworthy event and hold a place on Wikipedia. Had Tadesse not murdered Ho and only committed suicide, it would not be. The murder is the defining core of the events laid out on this page. While that alone is sufficient reason that the popular wikipedia naming convention of "The Murder of" is much more suitable here, there is also the societal more of memorializing the victim with at least as much emphasis as the perpetrator in circumstances like this, especially when there is no imbalance of fame/notoriety between murderer and victim and the murderer is known only for the murder. The current title, focused solely on the suicide of the murderer, is ill-suited for the content and at odds with both logic and social/moral values. Nepats19113 (talk) 19:31, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Deaths of Trang Phuong Ho and Sinedu Tadesse would be fine. No need to pick sides. EEng 19:37, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Neutral. Since there was no trial and no murder conviction, the existing main title header should suffice, but if consensus skews toward the proposed move, I would not oppose the move. However, since this was a murder-suicide, I would oppose substituting the non-descriptive terms "Death of..." or "Deaths of..." due to their opaque nature and lack of specificity. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:44, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well it's tragic all around so I do think the title should include both names. Since Murder of X and suicide of Y is awkward, I feel we can give up the specificity on the modes of death. EEng 12:19, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Having re-read the strong arguments made in the nomination, I now lean toward support. Since "Death of..." is also used for non-violent historical events, such as Death of Ludwig van Beethoven, Death of Edgar Allan Poe or Death of Michael Jackson, I still feel that it does not adequately express the essence of the event. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 15:09, 4 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Support albeit without the "The" in the title. Article will still feature Tadesse heavily of course and that shoouldn't change.  SnowFire (talk) 03:00, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agree with SnowFire. My support would be for the standard form, Murder of Trang Phuong Ho. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:18, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Um, anyone have anything to say about my idea that since two people died, two names should be in the title? EEng 10:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Um, no, we shouldn't memorialise murderers. There are plenty of murderers who have then committed suicide. Should we then include them in every article about such murders? -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Wow, what a mean-spirited attitude; the real killer in this tragedy was the indifference of the Harvard officials who ignored a seriously disturbed girl's cries for help and apparently just hoped for the best. It has nothing to do with "memorializing", simply that the title should be descriptive of the event. But since you bring it up, a quick sample of Category:Murder–suicides_in_the_United_States suggests that many, if note most, articles on murder-suicides are titled for the killer -- that is, those that don't have a more abstract title like Westroads Mall shooting.Which gives me an idea. How about Dunster House murder–suicide ? EEng</b> 13:07, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You actually think I'm "mean-spirited" for thinking the victim was maybe more of an injured party than the killer? Good grief! The world truly has gone mad... Your proposal Deaths of Trang Phuong Ho and Sinedu Tadesse ignores the fact that one of those deaths was a murder and the other the suicide of the murderer. It puts them on the same level and implies they were both innocent victims, which is clearly rubbish. If this is the case, maybe we should revisit the titling of every article about a murder in which it was claimed the murderer did it because of their poor mental state. Note: That's most of them! I would point out that many of the people in that category were either multiple murderers (can't put every name in the title) or also notable for something else. I'm not opposed to titling this article Sinedu Tadesse, as generally it is true that murderers are better-known than their victims, but the current title (which suggests that her suicide was more significant than her victim's murder) or Deaths of Trang Phuong Ho and Sinedu Tadesse (which omits the fact that one of them murdered the other) are just plain wrong. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The world hasn't gone mad, no one's saying they're on the same level (just that neither should be neglected), and no one's suggesting keeping the current title. In your dudgeon you ignored that what I'm now suggesting is Dunster House murder–suicide, which seems to be the favorite choice of sources; I actually can't find the phrase Murder of Trang Phuong Ho anywhere. <b style="color: red;">E</b><b style="color: blue;">Eng</b> 12:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * To quote you above: No need to pick sides. Yes, I think there is actually, given one was a murderer (mental health issues or not) and one an innocent victim. But, no dudgeon here. I'll stick with my preferred options. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:17, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * To quote myself above: mean-spirited. <b style="color: red;">E</b><b style="color: blue;">Eng</b> 13:50, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
 * If you think it's mean-spirited to have a lack of sympathy for someone who savagely murders an innocent person then fine. You're entitled to your opinion. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Support Murder of Trang Phuong Ho. It was a clear murder, whether there was a conviction or not (were Jack the Ripper's crimes not clear murder?), and that is the most significant act, not the suicide of the murderer. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:09, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Also support Sinedu Tadesse for reasons stated above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:17, 7 August 2020 (UTC)