Talk:Nasz Dziennik

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Icewhiz, please don't be funny
Please don't misinform about the Roman Church, you don't have any idea about the subject and you are biased.  rejects the Second Vatican Council - do you mean Society of Saint Pius X? But it's not true. Many conservative people reject some Vaticanum II ideas. Xx236 (talk) 11:45, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The Michlic's text is about the period till 2000, so was, not is. The phrase  The newspaper was an influential antisemitic information channel in Poland. doesn't look to be academic. The paper isn't (and never was) any independent information channell, it's a part of the whole (Radio Maryja, TV Trwam, clubs and meetings). Xx236 (talk) 11:47, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Rethinking Poles quotes Michlic, so you have one source.Xx236 (talk) 11:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * it supports the ultraconservative Liga Polskich Rodzin - it doesn't. Now LPR is small and more or less liberal. Giertych is a Platforma supporter. Xx236 (talk) 11:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)


 * I would love similar description of some Jewish newspapers of the same type. Their anti-Polish obsession is worse than any currebt Polish anti-Semitism. Xx236 (talk) 11:51, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I quoted three separate academic RSes - and there is little trouble finding more using the same terminology. I fail to see how this is funny. Icewhiz (talk) 12:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * As for "Jewish" (I cringe at this use) - see HaKol HaYehudi for a publication of perhaps a similar bend. Icewhiz (talk) 13:08, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Far-right
far right doesn't mean anything. I don't like them, so they are far-right. BTW it's a religious paper, which publishes many religious texts, which you forget to describe.Xx236 (talk) 11:54, 14 March 2019 (UTC) provides an ideological focus for a significant segment of Polish society. - another pearl of politiology. significant? Not enough significant to create a 5% party. Is 2% significant? Old, poor 2%?Xx236 (talk) 11:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Far right is used by sources. It is a very particular type of religious paper - part of the "closed church". The American branch of this is covered by the SPLC - . Icewhiz (talk) 12:35, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "ultra-right-wing" is used as well - " One of my personal favorites is an article published a few days later in the ultra-right-wing newspaper Nasz Dziennik (Our Daily), which compares European efforts to root out homophobia to terrorism and jihad. The piece, titled “Let Us Put a Stop to the Anti-Polish Campaign,” also brings news of a petition to the EP titled “Homosexual Hands off Poland” circulated by a U.S.-based religious Right organization.Graff, Agnieszka. "Looking at pictures of gay men: Political uses of homophobia in contemporary Poland." Public Culture 22.3 (2010): 583-603.. Icewhiz (talk) 13:04, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Agnieszka Graff is far-left. They love each other...Xx236 (talk) 14:11, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Rydzyk, you Jew!
http://wyborcza.pl/magazyn/7,124059,22657931,rydzyk-ty-zydzie-jak-radio-maryja-ociepla-stosunki-z-tel.html Father Rydzyk's attitude toward Israel changeed in 2016. He cooperates with Israeli Ambassador.Xx236 (talk) 12:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Life is filled with paradoxes - and in this case also the bizarre Polish Holocaust rescue myth - Priest Accused of anti-Semitism Behind New Polish Holocaust Museum, Haaretz (JTA), 25 June 2018. The pre-war Second Republic also supported some Zionists factions while at the same time promoting the expulsion of Jews from Poland - the two aren't mutually exclusive. Icewhiz (talk) 12:38, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you understand what you write? The Zionists promoted migrtaion of Jews to Palestine.
 * The same nasty Polish government expelled Polish peasants to South America, where some of them died (starved).
 * Poland was overpopulated. Either you expell people or someone rich invests (noone did) or you create concentration camps. If you know how to industrialize without money and without a genocide, you desreve Nobel prize.Xx236 (talk) 14:10, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

Krytyka Polityczna ~
You quote biased sources. You are biased and you pretend to be neutral and academic. Your bias is OK and other biases are wrong.Xx236 (talk) 14:04, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

has contrasted Nasz Dziennik homophobic discourse has been contrasted ?
Xx236 (talk) 15:48, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Fixed - silly me started writing this in a weaselly unattributed manner and then switched over to attribute, but forgot to cut out the previously written " has been contrasted". Icewhiz (talk) 15:59, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

POV issues
(Starting with this edit) the article has serious neutrality issues and needs to be looked into. GizzyCatBella (talk) 02:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, I am not sure if this is incorrect. Setting aside that the refs are reliable, ND is hardly a centric type of media in Poland. It certainly is associated with the church, and the PiS party. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:09, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The page has been “attacked" in a non-POV manner and later ND has been removed as a source from various articles. I’m busy now but I’ll publish my rationale later.GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:16, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * @Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus I believe I can't publish the links to the articles were ND has been dismissed as a source after modifications to this article has been performed ("far right", "anti-Semitic", “homophobic" etc.) due to TP but you can research yourself.GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:28, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * This is neutral .GizzyCatBella (talk) 03:46, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * We describe subjects, particularly far-right subjects, in a manner that they are described in reliable secondary sources. Are you challenging the reliability of the cited source? It is quite explicit: "Provided is a case study of Nasz Dziennik, one of the major Polish newspapers to disseminate a far-right discourse that combines a concept of ‘national identity’ with radical Catholicism. Such nationalist oriented media use rhetoric....", "Nasz Dziennik is one of the main disseminators of a Catholic-nationalist discourse; it supports the ultraconservative Liga Polskich Rodzin (LPR, League of Polish Families),4 and is closely linked to the populist Catholic radio station Radio Maryja. Although a number of far-right periodicals are readily available in Poland,6 Nasz Dziennik is a major pillar of the ultra-conservative press and, while far from mainstream, provides an ideological focus for a significant segment of Polish society." Icewhiz (talk) 04:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * On what principles you removed ND as a reference from various articles following your editions to this article starting March 14th this year?GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:09, 24 April 2019 (UTC)


 * I am not sure if far-right is accurate. Right-wing, certainly. There are plenty of reliable sources that describe it as right-wing, without the qualifier far-right, ex . I think the lead should describe its leanings in a way that all agree, i.e. right wing and pro-Catholic. In text, we can go into more details, including mentions of far-right (attributed). I've also added a link to endecja per the source from pl wiki (narodowcy refers not to "nationalists", but to endecja, not that there is a huge gap between those two camps...). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:12, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It is described now as "The newspaper was an influential antisemitic information channel in Poland" which is misleadingGizzyCatBella (talk) 05:21, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * How is this misleading? As for ND, Starnawski describes it as far-right. Also - in a false edit summary (this is not a c/e) - you modified radical Catholicism to "pro-Catholic" - which is really offensive given that the cited sources refer to the closed church or radical Catholicism - this is a "radical faction of the Roman Catholic Church" - a very small one - which is very far from the normative Church doctrine. Icewhiz (talk) 05:23, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Attribute, when sources disagree on the details, we attribute each version, right Icewhiz? GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:28, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you have any academic sources here of equal weight that disagree?Icewhiz (talk) 05:30, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Nasz Dziennik, which I will discuss, is considered to be the only real Polish Catholic newspaper I can throw here a wall of text twice as long as yours with twice as many sources. GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:38, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * That source doesn't quite disagree... "real Polish Catholic" indeed. You neglected the quote there of Church leader Archbishop Józef Życiński - "Nasz Dziennik has as much in common with Catholicism, as Trybuna Ludu had with the working class" - contrasting the relation with the Catholicism to the leading communist newspaper / propaganda mouthpiece of the party to the working class.Icewhiz (talk) 05:45, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "..the national daily newspaper Nasz Dziennik (our daily). this conservative, the traditional Catholic newspaper has been published since 1998.." we prefer the coverage of a topic in a neutral manner covered in independent, secondary, well regard sources, right Icewhiz? GizzyCatBella (talk) 05:59, 24 April 2019 (UTC)


 * Brief passing mention, which does not conflict with anything else. The "short note" itself is at the end of a long discussion of Father Rydzyk's movement and the newspaper is said to be published by a "group of close sympathizers of Father Rydzyk". Icewhiz (talk) 06:12, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

If we're running with passing mentions (as opposed to in-depth coverage in an academic journal article) - Icewhiz (talk) 06:36, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 1) Mention in Racist Extremism in Central & Eastern Europe, Routledge, Cas Mudde.
 * 2) Holocaust Remembrance between the National and the Transnational, Larissa Allwork, Bloomsbury in paragraph beginning with "Members of the extreme right in post-Soviet Europe have also played key public roles in exacerbating and encouraging politics of competitive victimhood between various groups who feel that their suffering equalled, if not surpassed that of the Jews under Nazism. For example, in Poland, ........." and ending with "including leader Switon, reflected extreme and marginal viewpoints that were expressed in the far-right weekly Nazsa Polska or in the national Catholic daily Nasz Dziennik, a publication associated with Radio Maryja, a Catholic media organization preaching anti-liberalism, anti-semitism, and anti-communism".
 * 3) Origin, Ideology and Transformation of Political Parties: East-Central and Western Europe compared, Ashgate,  Dr Lubomír Kopecek, Dr Vít Hloušek in the "far right" chapter discussing League of Polish Families  (LPR) - "The LPR's program as described above answers to the profile of a tradionalist Christian-national party, and is far from the idea of a modern Christian democracy .... Likewise the extraordinary importance of Radio Maryja for the LPR must be taken into account, as well as conspiracy theories in its broadcasts accusing Jews of being responsible for the crimes of Communism. Anotehr part of Rydzyk's media empire, the newspaper "Nasz Dziennik", behaved similarly, regularly printing articles revealing the "Masonic roots" of the liberal Civic Platform and its leader Tusk, or presenting the (allegedly) anti-Polish statement sof German chancellor Gerhard Schroder (winnicka 2005). The LPR's broader millieu makes it possible to classify it as far right".
 * 4) Kucia, Marek, Marta Duch-Dyngosz, and Mateusz Magierowski. "The Collective Memory of Auschwitz and World War II among Catholics in Poland: A Qualitative Study of Three Communities." History & Memory 25.2 (2013): 132-173. - " the extremely conservative, national-Catholic Nasz Dziennik", "Jerzy Robert Nowak, a controversial Catholic, nationalist and anti-Semitic columnist of Nasz Dziennik..
 * 5) Bilska-Wodecka, Elżbieta. "Secularization and Sacralization. New polarization of the Polish religious landscape in the context of globalization and European integration." Acta Universitatis Carolinae-Geographica 44 (2009): 3-18. spectrum: "Gazeta Wyborcza (left-centre), Rzeczpospolita (right--wing), and Nasz Dziennik (radically right-wing)".
 * 6) Oseka, Andrzej, and Irena Maryniak. "Porn again." Index on Censorship 29.3 (2000): 17-22. - "The initiative lies with right-wing political parties such as the Christian National Union, the Polish Federation of Movements to Defend Life, All-Polish Youth and far-right Catholic media, such as the hugely popular Radio Maria and the newspaper Nasz Dziennik (Our Daily). These are groups over which the religious hierarchy has little control. They spend their time remonstrating with other Catholic circles (including the bishops) over their dangerous 'openness' and manifestly 'weak faith'. National Christianity has a long tradition in Poland and has drawn on the experience of the far right in America and Canada for some years.
 * 7) Graff, Agnieszka. "Looking at pictures of gay men: Political uses of homophobia in contemporary Poland." Public Culture 22.3 (2010): 583-603. "ultra-right-wing newspaper Nasz Dziennik (Our Daily)"
 * 8) Tornquist-Plewa, B., and Agnes Malmgren. "Homophobia and nationalism in Poland: The reactions to the March Against Homophobia in Cracow 2004." Trondheim: Trondheim Studies on East European Cultures and Societies (2007). - spectrum: "Gazeta Wyborcza (social liberal) Rzeczpospolita (liberal-conservative) Trybuna (leftwing, the former Communist party paper), Nasz Dziennik (nationalist, Catholic-fundamentalist)".
 * 1) The Convolutions of Historical Politics, page 75, CEU Press - "the ultra—rightist nationalist—Catholic daily Nasz Dziennik".
 * @Icewhiz -> You just composed and added this text to the main body of the article that effectively requires me to retire immediately from the further discussion due to my TP.  Noted and registered. Goodbye.GizzyCatBella (talk) 07:11, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Reliability of ND
As noted above, we may want to discuss ND as a source. IMHO while it is a clearly biased/POVed source, it is also a popular newspaper and should not be censored, just attributed. Like Fox News or any other source that's clearly leaning right or left. It is not mainstream, but while I don't generally agree with its editorial stance, I wouldn't consider it unfit for use as a source (as far as WP:RS take on news sources, of course). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:14, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Take it to RSN. You'll be laughed out of there - far-right publications of this nature are seldom well received. Icewhiz (talk) 05:16, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Left trash is quoted here, also by you. The world is getting crazy. Please explain why left is better.Xx236 (talk) 08:53, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Klezmer music and Nasz Dziennik
This must be a joke. A text about Klezmer music as a source here.Xx236 (talk) 08:51, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It was added after Piotrus suggested it might be an appropriate source for "right-wing" as opposed to "far-right". I agree that this is a passing mention and that we should therefore simply describe this as far-right, radical-right, nationalist, etc. (per labels in sources in the article) 09:45, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

It's Roman-Catholic daily
It publishes many religious texts. How is it possible to ignore such fact in the lead? It's not Lutheran nor Jewish, it's Roman-Catholic. The link to Radical traditional Catholicism-critique is idiotic, so I have removed it. Please read the section, it's about France and US anti-Semites. BTW - Father Rydzyk has many Jewish friends, so his anti-Semitism isn't obvious. The paper has expelled Jerzy Robert Nowak. Xx236 (talk) 09:23, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It is "closed Church" Catholic - a very particular sub-sect that is repudiated by most of the church - e.g. Archbishop Józef Życiński - "Nasz Dziennik has as much in common with Catholicism, as Trybuna Ludu had with the working class" (Trybuna Ludu being a communist mouthpiece - the Polish Pravda).. The "closed church" or "radical traditional Catholicism" is covered by the SPLC. "Traditional" possibly involving traditions such as: Children beat effigy of Judas in Poland, amid persistence of 'medieval anti-Semitism', Washington Post, Prosecutor to probe Judas effigy beating in Polish town, Politico. Icewhiz (talk) 09:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz, if you don't stop I'll start to copy idiotic opinions about Talmud, which will be parallel to you revelations. They publish many religious texts, some of them more radical, some of them standard. Politico is a long way from Christianity and from journalism. It;'s a political tool.Xx236 (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Lepper is dead
Discussing the sex-affair in English Wikipedia is crazy. It's a historical detail. All liberal newspapers (NYT, WP, Guardian) pages should simiarly describe their anti-Kaczynski offensive. Do they? Xx236 (talk) 09:33, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * As he's dead there is no BLP concern on Wikipedia, further he and his associate have been convicted for their crimes. As for Nasz Dziennik the cited source has an in-depth analysis (couple of pages) of ND's reporting on the matter over a long period which is but briefly summarized in the article - the focus being not the "sex affair" itself (which included DNA analysis of children) but ND's reporting on it (first - denial via silence, then conspiracies). Icewhiz (talk) 13:15, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

conversion therapy
It's certainly not the most important subject to be listed at the beginning of the section. We don't know how many texts about the therapy have been published - 1 or 100. Traditional bias. The truth is completely unimportant, let's bash "Nasz Dziennik". The paper is terribly boring, but as we can see - some WP editors support it creating its biased image of evil right.
 * The paper doesn't publish pictures of naked women. Unfortunately probably no academic source informs about it. Man bites dog (journalism). Xx236 (talk) 10:41, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I did find Oseka, Andrzej, and Irena Maryniak. "Porn again." Index on Censorship 29.3 (2000): 17-22. about their opposition to pornography. It has the following quip from the paper: " Mariusz Wegrzyn wrote in Nasz Dziennik that Poland is 'a state in which minorities, including sexual minorities, are preferred and promoted' while the majority is humiliated and marginalised. 'Those who remind us about the Polish spirit have been called antisemites. We have a state in which pornography thrives, but the birth rate is low; a state in which abortion is high...' The author appeals for a just war for the public good so that 'a Catholic Polish nation state' can be created. He concludes: 'Onward, gentlemen! Attack! Hold tight the reins! Or it will be slavery, infamy, disgrace...'. I'm somewhat undecided on this going in - what do you think? Should this go in? Icewhiz (talk) 10:59, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Icewhiz, you are obsessed exacly like some "Nasz Dziennik" editors are.Xx236 (talk) 12:05, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Endecja
"Nasz Dziennik" is a long way from endecja parties and organisations. Endecja had strong atheistic tradition, Dmowski was an atheist.Xx236 (talk) 12:03, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Source says: "At the level of the definition of ‘Polishness’, Nasz Dziennik attaches great importance to seeing the Polish people as a nation ‘formed and developed within Latin civilization’ and ‘based on the values of the Roman Catholic religion’. There are frequent references to the pre-Second World War ideology of Endecja (National Democracy), a party formed and headed by Roman Dmowski, whose political vision rested on exclusionary definitions of Polish nationality (‘a real Pole has to be a Catholic’) and admonitions to cleanse political, cultural and economic spheres of ‘alien’ elements. " Dmowski was complex, however a large portion of the Endeks espoused a radical Catholic-nationalist program.. Icewhiz (talk) 12:11, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Ha. I wonder how many modern endeks would realize this... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:53, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The title of the source doesn't look academic The Deviant Case of Poland. This Wikipedia is certainly deviant, written by biased editors on the basis of biased sources.Xx236 (talk) 06:49, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Academy

 * Ph. D. Thesis Hanna Maria Kwiatkowska Conflict of images. Conflict of memories. Jewish themes in the Polish right-wing nationalistic press in the light of articles from Nasz Dziennik 1998-2007


 * The title is unprecize. Either the text is about "Nasz Dziennik" only or about "Polish right-wing nationalistic press" in general. Imagine "Mammals in the light of sperm whale" saying that "Mammals live in oceans". Xx236 (talk) 07:14, 25 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The title seems OK to me as a case study on ND which also touches the wider nationalist press. However this is a discussion to be had with Dr. Kwiatkowska - as on Wikipedia we generally use the titles given by an author, and do not modify or edit it ourselves.Icewhiz (talk) 10:37, 25 April 2019 (UTC)