Talk:National Book Award

Untitled
''Discussion partly concerns one list and four hybrid list/articles that are now distinct. See their talk pages:''
 * Talk:List of winners of the National Book Award
 * Talk:National Book Award for Fiction
 * Talk:National Book Award for Nonfiction
 * Talk:National Book Award for Poetry
 * Talk:National Book Award for Young People's Literature

Paperbacks
Are the paperback-winners of 1980's Mystery and 1981's Children's Book, Nonfiction category missing?

-- 22:45, 11 January 2005‎ 212.66.64.60

• refer to

Living authors
The National Book Award is given to "living authors" however, I wonder how Flannery O'Conner won in 1972... she had passed away nearly a year before. Geopence 00:55, 30 March 2005‎


 * I've never seen anything that says the author has to be alive. They just award to books published in the prior year. -- Stbalbach 17:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Most important prize?
I'm not sure what the criteria for determining this would be--the Pulitzer's probably more famous, though I think it involves less cash. It might be wise to qualify this claim. --Dvyost 22:01, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. There are literary prizes involving more cash, others that are more famous, older, and less commercial. It would be very difficult to support the claim that it is the most important. What is the meaning of "important" in this context?
 * The propaganda on the official NBA page uses the word "preeminent". I suggest using that word.


 * Seeing no objections, I've qualified it down to "one of the most important." --Dvyost 22:00, 31 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That is still quite a strong claim for an article that has such poor sources (only 2 source currently arent the National Book Award's home page). If it is "one of the most important." then finding a reliable 3rd party source should be trivial (like the Pulitzer). Bonewah (talk) 18:23, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Rename to "Awards"
The name of it "National Book Awards". See the website. I imagine a singular award would called a "National Book Award", but this article is about the awards in general, all of them. Anyone see a problem with renaming? -- Stbalbach 17:21, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Year Date Order?
I notice most of the award listings for this artcile start in 1950 and run to 2006 except Poetry which starts in 2006 and runs BACK to 1950. I was in a pedantic mood and was about to fix the poetry listing when it ocurred to me that maybe there's some WIKI rule about this and that all the other listings should be changed. Is there? Current to past or past to current? 68.252.236.103 02:05, 6 February 2007 (UTC)Buster


 * Please go ahead. "Oldest first" is how Wikipedia is structurally arranged on many levels. -- Stbalbach 02:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• refer to

Incorrect year of establishment

 * This concerns 1935/36 to 1941/42 NBAwards and resumption of NBAwards awards for 1949/50. -P64

This article, and it appears also more interestingly the organization's own official website, both quote 1950 as the year of its first award. However the awards were being conducted far earlier than that; for example, in 1939 Antoine de Saint-Exupéry won the award for Terre des hommes (English version: Wind, Sand and Stars). Saint-Exupéry's bio article accurately quotes him as the winner of both the Grand Prix du roman de l'Académie française and the National Book Award (of the United States) in 1939. This is easily verifiable on The New York Times and about a dozen biographies (including Schiff, 1994, pages 312, 326), plus other major news sources.

At first blush it appears that there may have been two sets of 'National Book Awards' from two different organizations. However if you look at the sources for the Saint-Exupery award, they all quote the American Booksellers Association (ABA), which is one of the three organizations shown on the official National Book Awards website, as noted here. The same webpage also states the awards were given from 1950. Corporate amnesia? I could find no other explanation for the wrong year of inception. Wikipedia isn't responsible for correcting an official organization's own public information, however it does have a requirement to state the unvarnished truth in its own articles. Further, the similar article, List of winners of the National Book Award, is also incomplete since it starts its listings only from 1950, missing out many previous winners.

1950, as a year of inception, will have to come out of these articles and be replaced with an earlier year. I suspect that year represents the amalgamation of several literary prizes from the The American Book Publisher’s Council, The Book Manufacturers’ Institute, and The American Booksellers’ Association. It appears the ABA's "National Book Award" name was retained after the three groups joined together. An important question now is what year the ABA first established its "National Book Awards" --its official website history, shown here, makes no mention of that. Are there some good old fashioned researchers on board? Best: HarryZilber (talk) 16:48, 13 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Booksellers awards: established April 1936 (best 1935 books). In the extended present tense, I work on the child articles first.
 * I haven't seen evidence that multiple awards were amalgamated, but you may be right. The book sellers, publishers, and manufacturers shared an annual convention ("the book industry" in NYT coverage). ... --P64 (talk) 22:37, 17 January 2012


 * Update: the article's lede has been revised to reflect that the awards were created in the 1930s. The companion article, List of winners of the National Book Award, has also been partially revised to include a few winners identified via Google. An email was additionally sent to the organization's headquarters alerting them to the inaccurate year of establishment shown on their website. HarryZilber (talk) 20:03, 6 December 2011 (UTC)


 * (resolved) In the companion discussion Talk: List of winners of the National Book Award i have asked for clarification of the template incomplete[section], which I have uncertainly relocated to the top of section Current categories in the companion list. For more information see those companions. --P64 (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The NBFoundation website may be embarrassing on this point but it's a fair summary that the NBF simply does not recognize the early awards at all. ...
 * After reading much contemporary coverage by NYTimes 1950 to date, mainly 1964 to 1988, I am moved declare that NBF's online presentation may be called a-historical at best, else it must be called shamefully poor history of that period which it does recognize. ... --P64 (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Criticism
This criticism section is truncated, with quotations from articles that appeared in a 10-day period in 2011. A much broader history of criticism of the awards is needed and even a criticism of the critics who made the statements included here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haugenbraum (talk • contribs) 16:15, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes indeed. I have highlighted that problem in a crude way that may get some attention, rewriting the first line: The NBAs were criticized during the last cycle. --P64 (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Major revision of four child articles, not here
All four articles on the particular awards in current categories are linked to this article as lists of "winners and finalists" (National Book Award). All four seem to be our only articles about the four particular awards that are current. Today I have revised all four to provide accounts that are partly repeated, with convenient named references to five pages at NBF. All should be developed to cover at least such a matter as whether any author has won them twice, ideally to cover also any separate response to the awards.

I have not revised this parent article in the same way and it's possible that material from the child articles belongs here, insofar as I have done them well. Here my revision is barely substantial (add one paragraph on the 2010 numbers of nominees). Mainly I have added some references to pages at NBF and completed existing references in a format that plainly shows the reliance on NBF sources :-)

--P64 (talk) 00:09, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Today I started major revision here, concluding with work on several new sections grouped under History.
 * --not that the "four child articles" are done --or five with the List of winners, or six with National Book Foundation which i have just added to Category:National Book Award. On the contrary. But I have enough material to change methods: try to give one account here and then decide what part of it should also be in the child articles.
 * It now seems likely that I will complete a first pass tomorrow, at least back to 1963. --P64 (talk) 20:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
 * After much reading, mainly 1964 to 1988, i see it's more complicated than I can draft today (and today is done). --P64 (talk) 00:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Publishers role

 * This concerns the award from 1949/50 to date: administration, funding, etc. -P64

Did the Publishers take over sole sponsorship of the award? (Coverage of the American Book Awards interlude suggests that they had done so before 1979.) If so, when? --P64 (talk) 22:37, 17 January 2012

Foundation from 1988

 * This concerns the nonprofit era, perhaps from 1987 resumption under the name National Book Awards. -P64

User HarryZ recently linked to the Foundation history page at NBF, which is distinct from the Awards history (aka About Us: Mission & History). I have restored references to the latter (ref name=history) by nicknaming the former (ref name=foundation).

The Foundation history gives 1989 and the Medal page (ref name=letters) gives 1988 for the NBF year established. The latter has greater plausibility, for it gives the list of American Letters medalists from 1988 (i added 1988–1990 to our list). Frankly 1987 would be most plausible and that year is now a gap in our disjointed presentation of the history: Oscar-style American Book Awards with publishers running the show 1980 to 1986; NBAs restored 1987.

At least for a while it seems appropriate to go with 1988 in the article (no footNote about the discrepant sources). --P64 (talk) 21:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Now I doubt that establishment of NBFoundation is crucial to history of NBAwards. It may be secondary. According to NYTimes coverage, "National Book Awards, Inc." administered the awards 1987 and 1988 and established "National Book Foundation" that winter. Both were nonprofit organizations, iiuc. Apparently NBF was established July 1989, but that may be crucial only at National Book Foundation; here the crucial transition occurred 1987 or earlier, perhaps with the 1984 "revamp". --P64 (talk) 00:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "Miss Prete" was the Executive Director of National Book Awards, Inc., at the November 1987 final ceremony.(NYT coverage)
 * "Barbara Prete" was the American Book Awards E.D. who led the 1983/1984 revamp: chairing the committee of five who designed it (herself and four publishers); speaking for it at the fall 1984 announcement of 11 nominees.(NYT coverage)
 * To me the Foundation now seems unimportant to the literary awards, a new but essentially unchanged caretaker. Since the 1983/1984 revamp, the awards program has been continuous in spirit under American Book Awards, Inc. (1984 to 1986), National Book Awards, Inc. (1987 and 1988), or National Book Foundation (from 1989). During this time ABA further reduced the number of book awards from three to two; NBF increased the number from two to four. --P64 (talk) 17:03, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

List of award categories 1983
(quoting the article, which is quoting myself) 27 awards
 * 8 for graphics: Pictorial Design, Typographical Design, Illustration Collected Art, Illustration Original Art, Illustration Photographs, Cover Design, Jacket Design
 * 5 for children's literature: (Children's) Fiction hardcover and paperback, Nonfiction, Picture Books hardcover and paperback
 * 14 for adults' literature: General Nonfiction hardcover and paperback, History hardcover and paperback, Biography hardcover and paperback, Science hardcover and paperback, Translation, Fiction hardcover and paperback, Poetry, First Novel, Original Paperback

That is a miscount, only seven graphics awards listed, total 26. There are several sources for 27 awards total, and 19 literary awards. (eg, "Each winner in the 19 categories of literary achievement will receive $1000 and a sculpture by Louise Nevelson. Winners of the graphics awards will receive the Nevelson sculpture only.")

"8 for graphics" was the result of my calculation 27-19=8. I don't know whether I missed one graphics, NYTimes missed one graphics, or one of us missed one award that makes its own subcategory. --P64 (talk) 17:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)


 * NYTimes April 14, 1983, page C30 lists winners in 26 award categories only (as listed above) and states 27 categories including 19 for "literary achievement".
 * NBF lists the latter 19 online

P.S. Thanks to google, Lakeland Ledger 1983-11-07, reprint of NYT "Publishers expect changes in American Book Awards", which I missed in NYT archives.


 * The original reference to that crucial article is "Publishing: New Life for American Book Awards", Edwin McDowell, November 4, 1983, page C28. --P64 (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Winners and finalists
Except for the two lifetime awards that are covered only in this article, all discussion of award winners and finalists on the five Talk pages listed at the top. This includes NBAward-related discussion of the articles about authors and books, such as their categorization (Category:National Book Award winners, and so on). --P64 (talk) 17:52, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

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