Talk:New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell University

History expansion
This page has a comprehensive history of the ILR School that should be incorporated into this article. —Eustress talk 07:09, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Article name
I'm not sure that I'm comfortable with the recent change of the name of the article from Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations to ILR School. I reviewed the guidelines at WP:TITLE and I think either name could be argued for. In particular, it seems that the criteria "Common name" and "Conciseness" are generally weighted heavily. See below for my take on the two names vis a vis some of the criteria:


 * Edited to add "Cornell University ILR School" &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 06:35, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The main thing I dislike about the long form is its poor concision, and the main thing I dislike about the short form is that it's imprecise. Particularly bad is that it is inconsistent with Cornell University College of Agriculture and Life Sciences, Cornell University College of Architecture, Art, and Planning, Cornell University College of Arts and Sciences, Cornell University College of Engineering, Cornell University School of Hotel Administration, Cornell University College of Human Ecology, Cornell University Graduate School, Cornell Law School, Weill Cornell Medical College of Cornell University, Weill Cornell Graduate School of Medical Sciences, Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine, and New York State College of Forestry at Cornell, all of which include "Cornell" in their titles. Note that there is an exception in Johnson Graduate School of Management, though. I'm also not sure why removed the sourced prose clarifying that "The ILR School" is not the legal name of the school, but is rather an ad-hoc branding strategy. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 01:16, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * As your analysis above illustrates, there are tradeoffs either way, but since http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/ doesn't mention the full name anywhere, I thought the change best. I really favor the more concise names now that third parties use Wikipedia naming conventions when piping text (e.g., Facebook community pages); however, for Wikipedia's purposes, perhaps it would be best to move to "Cornell University ILR School"? —Eustress talk 03:56, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
 * "Cornell University ILR School" addresses the issues of recognizability, precision, and consistency. It also appears to pass the "Common name" test, given that it is the wording used on some 3rd-party websites like this one as well as on the school's own Facebook page. All in all, I think it's a good compromise between brevity and precision. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 06:33, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Branding
Wikipedia must follow the facts, regardless of what a PR man wants. I had reservations when we first moved the article form New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations. The reason given was that the article title starting with Cornell would be easier for users to find. However, since then, the business school article has been renamed "Johnson Graduate School of Management" So, if it is permissible to have an article reflect the official name of a school (as well as its major benefactor) I would vote to move this back to "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell" Racepacket (talk) 00:59, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I respectfully disagree; note that, for example, Wikipedia prefers Bill Clinton over William Jefferson Clinton, despite the fact that the former is a nickname and the latter is the "official" legal name. See WP:TITLE. I think that "Cornell University ILR School" is probably the best compromise vis a vis the title selection criteria. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 01:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Bill presents a good example, and to his point, I have compromised and put the full, historical name in bold in the lead sentence (similar to how Bill Clinton's full name is presented first), then with ILR in parentheses to indicate it as the preferred abbreviation throughout the article and the name the school primarily goes by. Regarding the infobox, usually the more common name goes at top (see again, Bill Clinton). I put "ILR at Cornell University," but "ILR" or "ILR School" would also fit the "bill" (no pun intended). —Eustress talk 01:16, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Does it not strike you as a bit odd that the school would "rebrand" its website, but not apply its "rebranding" to its annual budget submissions to SUNY and the State Legislature? Racepacket (talk) 20:32, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 09:25, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Cornell University ILR School → New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations — There is no agreement as to what name to use for this article, so me might as well go with the actual official name. See NYS Education Law § 5715. Racepacket (talk) 01:13, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


 * You haven't even made a concerted effort to reason about this here, and already you're going to WP:RM... this seems quite disruptive. —Eustress talk 01:19, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Eustress and I already discussed this issue and came to a compromise we were both happy with; your late entrance into the debate doesn't qualify as there being "no agreement". If your concern is about promotion, boosterism, or some other issue pertaining to point of view, all I can do is to point you again to WP:TITLE... my instinct was that a longer, more-precise title would be preferable, but the established conventions actually do promote the use of whatever name happens to be in common use. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 01:28, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The name also recognizes the fact that the school is a unit of both Cornell University and the State University of New York at the same time. Racepacket (talk) 01:26, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The association with the State University of New York is technically correct, but in common usage, does anyone really refer to it that way? It's housed on the campus of Cornell University and considered a part of that university, so I can't imagine how pushing the SUNY connection enhances its recognizability or naturalness. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 01:33, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Also relevant is Naming_conventions_(companies), which states that "The legal status suffix of a company...is not normally included in the article title". Noting in the article title that it is affiliated with the SUNY system strikes me as more an issue of legal status than of anything else. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 01:36, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The name came before SUNY was created. I think it is more like the Johnson School - the school is named after a benefactor who provides millions per year in annual support as well as the cost of the buildings.  I would no more work toward remove the name of the benefactor of the Industrial Labor Relations School than I would go out of my way to remove the name of the benefactor of the business school.  The name of the school has remained the same since 1944, while the Johnson School was renamed most recently in 1984, and most of its graduates attended before it got its new name.  So there is a stronger reason for the benefactor's name to be used in this article than in the Johnson article. Racepacket (talk) 03:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

The article history is instructive. It started as New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations on April 1, 2004. It was moved to Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations on July 21, 2006. It was moved to ILR School on December 12, 2010, and then to Cornell University ILR School on December 13. I don't think that there is any long-standing consensus for dropping the words "Industrial and Labor Relations" from the title. The ILR disamb page shows how many other meaning those letters have in the general public. Other similar schools spell out the name, for example, UIUC Institute of Labor and Industrial Relations. Other statutory college articles also spell out their subject matter, see New York State College of Ceramics and State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry. Racepacket (talk) 01:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC) WP:TITLE says, "If an article title has been stable for a long time, and there is no good reason to change it, it should not be changed. If it has never been stable, or unstable for a long time, and no consensus can be reached on what the title should be, default to the title used by the first major contributor after the article ceased to be a stub." In this case, that would be New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations. Racepacket (talk) 01:24, 20 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The proposed name is not recognizable. I'd give it a poor for recognizability – no one refers to it that way. I'd support a move to Cornell ILR School, which though a bit less precise, is extra concise and natural. --Pnm (talk) 05:59, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The phrase "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations" gets 1,200,000 ghits, "Cornell ILR School" gets 16,500 ghits, and "Cornell University ILR School" gets 124,000 ghits. Racepacket (talk) 13:42, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I have still been unable to find any independent secondary sources that the "rebranding" has gained widespread acceptance. There are thousands of graduates with diplomas hanging on their walls saying "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations," so there is quite a bit of inertia on the naming front. While it is obvious that the website has been "rebranded," there is no indication that it has gained traction in everyday life, particularly since the official name of the school is unchanged. Racepacket (talk) 13:53, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Please check out this new Google tool which seraches a database of many books: ILR vs Industrial and Labor Relations It shows that ILR had a widespread meaning independent of Industrial and Labor Relations long before the founding of the School. These other meanings are found on the ILR disamb. page. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 06:26, 30 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Plot ILR School vs School of Industrial and Labor Relations and you will see the former is the standard. —Eustress talk 14:55, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * This is also instructive; all of the sources there antedate 1968. &mdash;Bill Price (nyb) 15:08, 31 December 2010 (UTC)
 * If you look at ILR, you will see that the abbreviation frequently means things other than Industrial and Labor Relations. Look at the plot for ILR School vs. Industrial and Labor Relations School which is a better basis for comparison. Spelling it out has been more frequent over time.  I still believe that it was a mistake and a breach of decorum to unilaterally move the article.  If there is no consensus to return to "Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations", then we should go back to the official name, which was the title of the article prior to "Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations." Failure to spell out ILR violates WP:PRECISION. Racepacket (talk) 05:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Prior to the move to the current name, one of the reasons given was that the school's website did not even mention its own official name. We have now changed the website to use the full name at: http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ and http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/about/ILRhistory.html. Racepacket (talk) 04:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We were referring to the school's root page (ilr.cornell.edu) on that point. The pages you have identified do mention the school's name at the time of its founding, but the school now goes by a different name, a fact corroborated by the titles of the very pages you referenced: "About the ILR School" and "The History of ILR School". For this reason and the others listed in the table above, we feel that the current Wikipedia article title (Cornell University ILR School) is best. —Eustress talk 08:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you really want to insist that the school go back and change its root web page to say "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations?" I think that you are being a bit too web-centric in your preception of the school and are placing too much faith in the school's web designers.  The fact is that the school's name has not changed. When faculty publish academic papers, they identify themselves as being from the New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations.  The physical diplomas spell out the school name.  Cornell's budget documents and SUNY's documents use the correct name.  On most documents, the abbreviation ILR is defined and spelled out before it is used.  The abbreviation  ILR is not used at other universities (unlike HR) so most people do not know what those letters mean absent a definitiion.  If you have a reliable secondary source that there is widespread adoption by the general public (as opposed to just the school website) of the ILR name, please provide it. College names get abbreviated all the time, but we don't move their Wikipedia pages back and forth. The "Arts College" short form has been used for 100 years, but nobody is dropping "and Sciences" from that article title.  The last two moves of this article have been done without proper consultation of the editors who have generated most of the content or WikiProject Cornell University. Racepacket (talk) 11:57, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * We seem to go back and forth on the same issues. The link I provided above (see again here) provides links to thousands of books published by third parties using "ILR School". I think you're getting hung up on the historical name of the school, when Wikipedia naming (per WP:TITLE) is based on several factors as discussed above (common name, conciseness, recognizably, naturalness, precision, consistency). —Eustress talk 16:00, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have addressed that graph above to show why it is not valid. You don't know whether those references were preceded by a parenthetical defining the abbreviated form. Also "ILR School" is used in a non-Cornell context. even Harvard! The unilateral name change was not consistent with WP:TITLE and should be reversed.  If there is no consensus for the change to "Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations" then we go back to the last title which had consensus "New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations."  Again, I am open to a reliable source that shows that "Cornell University ILR School" has gained wide-spread acceptance. There was a similar case involving an undergraduate who wanted to create an article based on an slang nickname for the University of Miami, Articles for deletion/The U (University of Miami), but his article was deleted, not even left as a redirect to University of Miami. Articles for deletion/The U resulted in a redirect to the University of Miami.  I have no objection to leaving a redirect from the ILR titles back to the spelled out title, but I think the spelled out "Industrial and Labor Relations" should be used as the article title. This would be consistent with every other Cornell University college article and all of the other academic articles that I have seen. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 04:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Oppose The organisation seems to currently use Cornell University ILR School, confusing though I find that name.  To me ILR means Independent Local Radio!  However, if that is what all the publicity goes out with, I'm guessing that will be the formal title most people will use, no matter what it may have been called at the time it was founded.  Skinsmoke (talk) 09:57, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Undergraduate program
The article states that the school "remains the only institution of higher education with a four-year undergraduate program focused on work and employment." It appears that the University of Minnesota offers both an undergraduate major and minor in Human Resources. http://www.carlsonschool.umn.edu/cms/Page5883.aspx. (UM also offers a masters and PhD program.) Anyway, most other universities offer only master degrees in this area. E.g., http://hrlr.msu.edu/about/ and http://www.ilir.uiuc.edu/. It appears that many employers want someone with a masters degree as an entry into human resources/labor relations. It is not clear that people use their undergraduate degrees to enter this field and that a larger percentage of graduates go onto law school and then practice law in areas other than labor relations. Is the current wording of the article a bit misleading? Racepacket (talk) 14:14, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Protection Other improvements could be made to the article, but it appears you are still trying to make edits related to the naming of the school; therefore, protection is prudent here. Let's resolve the naming issue first. —Eustress talk 14:09, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Protection is fine with me, but as I read Wikipedia policy, that means that neither of us is allowed to edit the page, because administrators involved in a content dispute cannot use administrator tools with respect to that dispute. Similarly, although you are an administrator, you can't close the requested move.  Again, I believe that this article should be treated in a manner consistent with other statutory college articles, and should use its official name.  I also believe that the article must be free of any puffing or self-promotion, and should stick to the facts.  Since we both know that there are other undergraduate programs, the article should not state that it is the only program.  The acronym ILR does not have universal acceptance, because for example, the University of Illinois uses LER, and Minnesota uses SHRLR.  In contrast, the abbreviation HR has widespread acceptance. Racepacket (talk) 19:27, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Campus
Would a neutral administrator not involved in the current content dispute, please change the section to read:

The school was originally housed in quonset huts, but later it moved into buildings vacated by the New York State College of Veternary Medicine. The current campus comprises Ives Hall, and the Martin P. Catherwood Library, which is one of only two official depository libraries of the International Labour Organization (the other being the Library of Congress). It also has branches in Albany, Buffalo, New York City and Rochester. The school also occupies three linked buildings along Garden Avenue, which house research, conference center and extension. The buildings were built in 1911 for the Veternary College and are on a register of historic structures. From 2001-2004, the three buildings were extensively rennovated by New York State. In 2008, the Extension Building was renamed Dolgen Hall. In 1998, New York State replaced the portion of Ives Hall fronting along Tower Road with a new 110,605 sq ft building. Recently, the State also rennovated the faculty wing of Ives Hall at a cost of $14 million.

Thanks 06:12, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Infobox
I am trying to make the infoboxes of the statutory colleges consistent by adding NYS to the name parameters. We don't need to have "Cornell" in the name parameter because it is apparent from the logo image. So I would like this name parameter to be "NYS School of Industrial and Labor Relations" to reflect the name of the school.

I would like to omit the postgraduate student parameter, because we don't want to double-count students who are included in the Graduate School enrollment figure. Who are the 180 graduate students? Racepacket (talk) 04:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Puffing
The following sentence was in the lead paragraph: "It also has more faculty dedicated to teaching and researching work, employment, and labor issues than any other educational institution." But the source is hedged: "ILR has more full-time faculty involved in teaching and research that spans the broad range of work and employment disciplines than any other educational institution of its kind." Wikipedia left out "full time" and "any other educational institution of its kind." I am not sure how they are counting. It appears that the ILR webmaster is counting both the regular and extension faculty to get the total. I don't know if they included extension faculty of the unnamed other institutions that they are compairing. The comparison is undated and may no longer be valid. Racepacket (talk) 05:00, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

The following sentence was in the faculty section, "The school claims to be home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in employment research and education." The source said, "ILR is home to the world's largest concentration of scholars in this interdisciplinary field." There is a bit of SYN here, but I am deleting it as puffing. This is impossible to verify. How do we define "this interdisciplinary field" and do we include Cornell scholars outside the school, for example in the economics department of the Arts College, labor law professors in the law school, and organizational behavior specialists in the business school? This is meaningless and unverifiable. Racepacket (talk) 13:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose that List of deans of the ILR School be merged into Cornell University ILR School. I think that the list could easily be just a table in the history section of this article, and theschool article is of a reasonable size in which the merging of list of deans will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Racepacket (talk) 12:32, 20 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Hearing no objection, I am doing it. Racepacket (talk) 17:25, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

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