Talk:Niger River

Untitled
I rolled back the two changes for this reason: Westerners with a capitalized W is the usual way to refer to the "Western civilization" nations - as is meant here. Without capitalilzation it could, and often does, mean people from the west of whatever geographic area you're talking about. As for the spelling of "Timbuktu," I (probably like you) am more familiar with the version that you put it, but the map and current usage favors the other. I changed it to be consistent. - DavidWBrooks 19:54, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fair enough on westerners; no big problem there, but it seems that since the Wikipedia article about that city is called 'Timbuktu', and that article identifies 'Tomboctou' as an alternate spelling, then in Wikipedia as a whole should standardize on Timbuktu, or rename the article about the city itself. If the map that we have doesn't jive with it, then we should replace the map. --Bletch 15:54, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Fair enough in return. I swear it used to be the other way around - Timbuktu was redirected to Tombouctou! Ah, well: I'll change it back in this article. - DavidWBrooks 17:08, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism

 * I don't get why this article keeps getting vandalized. -- Stevey7788 23:25, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Probably the name is close enough to "nigger" to tittilate the simple-minded. There is no rhyme or reason to vandalisation, alas. - DavidWBrooks 01:21, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Timbuktu naming
I've modified the Timbuktu reference slightly. I've stated that the alternative spelling, Tombouctou, is the French spelling of the town; and Mali is a French colonly after all. :) (I live in Mali).
 * Do you really? Neat! Where? (You'll see, by the way, that the Timbuktu/Tombouctou debate has been around a while, here and in the Timbuktu article itself.) - DavidWBrooks 11:23, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Name origin?
I was just wondering what was origin of this rivers name. I couldnt find the answer to this on the pages for Niger or Nigeria or here. Hellycopper 02:46, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In reference to the etymology section of the article: If the name "Niger" does come from a Romance language root for "black", the original namers could have been referring to the people along the river, not to the actual color of the river.  Applejuicefool 20:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Restored an old comment on the etymology. kwami 02:29, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Plinus in his Natural History uses the name Nigris but states that the people around it are called Nigrites "after the name of the river" as a latin speaker, if the name had been related to niger as "black", he would have stated it or would have left it as obvious and unstated. But this diligent comment about the name of the Nigrites clearly shows (at least to me) that it comes from a non-latin root. --Diligent (talk) 18:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Dasibari
I'd like to find out more information about the Romans and their "hearing of the river (Niger) and calling it Dasibair." What's the origin of this name? Who did they get it from? A simple reference would suffice here.

Expansion August 2008
Working on expansion, mostly the history of the name. Would like to expand this to resemble Nile, which while only a B class, is MUCH more comprehensive. This would mean adding, at very least, these major sections:
 * Tributaries and distributaries
 * Politics, interstate borders, boundry issues
 * Hydrology
 * History, role in Sahelian states (major), Oyo, Modern Nigeria, Colonisation
 * Crossings

Also needs summaries of Niger Delta and Niger Inland Delta. Can't say when this'll be done, but I'll ahve to do some reading... T L Miles (talk) 20:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Good job on the name. kwami (talk) 21:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Helge Hjelland Exploration
Norwegian adventurer Helge Hjelland did in 2005 become the first known man to traverse the entire Niger river. This was also shown on Norwegian TV as he filmed the trip and made it into a documentary. This should maybe be included in the article..? Gabagool (talk) 13:30, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Sure, it deserves a small mention, I think. But I can't find really good support to his claim that he's the first man to travel the entire river. Nobody except he and his film folks make that claim, so far as my limited searching has found. This doesn't mean it's not true, of course, just that it's not supported - first/hardest/highest/etc. claims by adventurers must always be regarded with a little suspicion. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 13:42, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Earlier full navigation of the Niger
There is a well documented account of a much earlier navigation of the entire river than 2005. On October 24th 1946 three Frenchmen, Jean Sauvy, Jean Rouch (later a French movie producer of some notoriety) and Pierre Ponty, former civil servants in the African French colonies, set out to accomplish this, as no one else seemed to have done it previously. From the very beginning of the river near Kissidougou in Guinea, walking at first till a raft could be used then changing to various local crafts as the river broadened and changed character, two of them reached the ocean, on March 25th, 1947, Pierre Ponty having had to leave the expedition at Niamey, somewhat past the halfway mark. They carried a 16mm movie camera, the resulting footage giving Jean Rouch his first two ethnographic documentaries, "Au pays des mages noirs", and "La chasse à l’hippopatame", a camera, used to take numerous pictures used to illustrate Jean Rouch's subsequent book "Le Niger En Pirogue" (Fernand Nathan, 1954), as well as Jean Sauvy’s “Descente du Niger” (L'Harmattan 2001), and a typewriter, on which Pierre Ponty produced newspaper articles, mailed out whenever possible.  I think the current entry should be corrected. --Didier Schvartz (talk) 02:36, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I added your info in Niger River. Have a look, and feel free to edit. Regards, Pim Rijkee (talk) 19:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

typo
Thank you for adding the info and adjusting the Norwegian expedition entry. I have just noticed a typo I made, sorry, "La chasse à l’hippopatame" should read "La chasse à l’hippopotame". Thanks again --Didier Schvartz (talk) 16:49, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Ptpwiki, 30 October 2010
Hello, Just a small change, under "European exploration" (see below), the year 1786 should be 1796 instead. This was the year when Mungo Park layed his eyes on the Niger river. BR PTP

Please change

Many European expeditions to plot the river were unsuccessful. In 1788 the African Association was formed in England to promote the exploration of Africa in the hopes of locating the Niger, and in June of 1786 the Scottish explorer Mungo Park was the first European to lay eyes on the river. The true course was established in his book Travels in the Interior of Africa, which appeared in 1799.[13]

to

Many European expeditions to plot the river were unsuccessful. In 1788 the African Association was formed in England to promote the exploration of Africa in the hopes of locating the Niger, and in June of 1796 the Scottish explorer Mungo Park was the first European to lay eyes on the river. The true course was established in his book Travels in the Interior of Africa, which appeared in 1799.[13]

Ptpwiki (talk) 06:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done Thanks, Stickee (talk)  07:55, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Senegal-Niger, Cadamosto & Leo Africanus
Hi. I've been trying to improve the early history of the Senegal River based on Italian & Portuguese sources, which naturally brings up the connection to the Niger. Since the history here seems so much more advanced, maybe I can persuade someone here to take a look at the Senegal River page?

In pursuit of Senegal, I found a couple of points that might also be helpful for this Niger page: I think this last point is very interesting. From this thin bit of info, I think we can glean that "Niger" was not being used as a term for any actual African river by the Portuguese or Italians in 1460s/70s (when Cadamosto wrote his work). Yet by 1526, Leo Africanus was happily using 'Niger' to refer to the modern Senegal-Niger river. Moreover, Leo clearly states it is called "Niger" because of the black people living there.
 * Cooley places a lot the blame for the Senegal-Niger connection on al-Idrisi (1154). Now, clearly it must have been used before, but al-Idrisi really propagated the notion.
 * - As late as 1448, the Portuguese were still using the Arabic "Nile" to refer to the Senegal-Niger, but after 1455 (certainly by 1460s) seemed to have switched completely to "Senegal" (Senaga/Canaga, no more "Nile").
 * - The Venetian captain Alvise Cadamosto, who visited the Senegal in 1455, has a couple of interesting tidbits:
 * (1) that both the "Senega" and the (Egyptian) Nile were said by legend to be tributaries of the great Biblical "Gion" river that flowed from the Garden of Eden across the lands of Aethiopia. (mind immediately drifts to Gion = Ger?)
 * (2) that the Senega used to be called the "Niger" by the ancients.

Now, I wish I had "reputable sources to cite", and I hope someone might know of one, but it seems to me from this thin wedge, that Leo may have very well been the first to use "Niger" to identify the actual river. Speculatively, Leo must have heard the Arabic term for the Senegal-Niger river ("Nile of the Blacks") being used often enough, and simply assumed, by confusing Ptolemy's Greek 'Nigir' and the Latin word for 'black', that that must be what Ptolemy meant, and switched into Niger in full-time mode.

I still have to verify if the next Portuguese sources (e.g. Barros, Gois) can confirm the Portuguese still weren't using "Niger" for anything in the mid-16th. If so, I think it is safe to say it was Leo who associated the ancient Nigir to the actual modern Niger river. Any sources to confirm that? Walrasiad (talk) 11:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Answers!!!
I am a student and as a student we do have assessments! When these arise we need to be able to know some facts. I am currently doing one and I need to know:

What is the approximate size of the area affected by the Niger flood in August 2010?

What was the exact date it started?

Was it a cold/warm front?

Where can I get a link to a map showing the areas affected?

Please help as not only will this be useful to me but it will be useful to others. This information about the flood could prove useful on the official river Niger page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Studentspokesperson97 (talk • contribs) 19:23, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

DREDGING OF LOWER NIGER RIVER ABANDONED?

 * DREDGING OF LOWER NIGER RIVER ABANDONED?, Article | April 18, 2011 - 9:09am — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.65.144 (talk) 02:04, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

eAtlas external link update!
I can't edit the article to change the link, but for those who are interested in linking to the Water and Nature Initiative by the IUCN on this topic, please see this link: http://www.waterandnature.org/en/resources/publications/thematic-collection/facts-figures/watersheds-world

The link at the bottom of this article is broken. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolbluebreeze (talk • contribs) 10:45, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Two millennia? Are you sure?
Under Unusual route the claim is made that European geographers were "baffled" by the river's unorthodox course "for two millennia." With no specific reference attribution, it's difficult to pinpoint where this claim originated--web search "Niger river" "two millennia" to see what I mean. I readily confess to not have paid much attention in school, but were Europeans actively exploring Africa long enough ago that geographers could have been baffled there as early as the year CE 12?

Substituting "centuries" seems more consistent with the African Association, founded in 1788. Even the cases of mistaken identity by Pliny and Ptolemy are old enough to span 1900 years, but mistaken identity doesn't leave one baffled; one simply doesn't realize one is wrong. The next section on European exploration even goes so far as to say European knowledge of Africa during the Classical Era was slightly better than fable.

I'm less disputing the claim than wondering if I've missed more than I think. Maybe I'm placing too much emphasis on the word "baffled" and should simply rephrase the sentence to something like, "the true course of the river was not known to Europeans until 1796."

I for one am baffled. Thoughts? -- zedmelon (¿) - 02:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The Niger River was known of even in antiquity. I believe the Greek historian Herodotus mentioned it, so it was actually more than two millenia. This does not mean that Herodotus himself explored it, but he compiled reports of a major river in that area. Keep in mind that the Sahara was significantly smaller and greener a couple of millenia ago, so reports of the Niger river could have more easily filtered across. The problem (if I remember correctly) is that from antiquity until the 18th century, it was commonly believed that the Niger flowed from east to west. It was a revelation to European geographers when explorations finally revealed it flowed the other way. Someone can fill in any details I'm getting wrong, but I think that's what the paragraph is referring to. --seberle (talk) 06:25, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Floodings in Europe
"In Europe and Western Asia, floods are expected in the Spring, following snow melt. Classical authors explained the summer flood by calculating the time it took for flood waters to move down a river, and calculating how long the Nile must have been for the waters to travel from a mountain range in the spring. However the cycle of the Nile is influenced by tropical rain patterns instead of by melting snow, a characteristic unknown to the Classical Mediterranean world.[14]"

Is it a joke? Floods are usual in Europe. All you need is a heavy rain. It happens almost yearly in Spain's East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_drop) but is very common throughout Europe. I don't expect the weather to be so different two thousand years ago. I use to read the English version of the Wikipedia because it seems to be more accurate, but maybe I am wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.76.247.34 (talk) 18:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 April 2015
The source of the name Niger is actually not from Latin but from the Gher or Ni-Gher mentioned later in the article. Please remove the sentence "The likeliest possibility is an alteration, by influence of Latin niger "black", of the Tuareg name Egerew n-igerewen, which is used along the middle reaches of the river around Timbuktu.[4][5] ". This just is not the case.

Hland Belle (talk) 15:35, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I've replaced the sentence with information taken from the historian John Hunwick who wrote: "Leo Africanus is the first writer, to my [knowledge?] to use the name Niger. Portuguese writers of this period who referred to the river used the name 'Nile', evidently under the influence of the Arab geographers. It is not clear from what source Leo picked up the name, though its origin may lie in the Berber phrase ger-n-ger - 'river of rivers', i.e. great river." Aa77zz (talk) 16:47, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

English pronunciation
I noticed that the suggested English pronunciation for the Niger river is /ˈnaɪdʒər/ while it for the country of Niger is /niːˈʒɛər/. As a non-native speaker could someone tell me if this split is real or just the two articles used different sources or accents? Ahyangyi (talk) 11:23, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The split is real. English speakers living in Niger use both pronunciations. The pronunciation /niːˈʒɛər/ is the French pronunciation, but is very frequently used by English speakers when referring to the Republic of Niger. However, the Niger River runs through both French- and English-speaking countries and there is no special reason to use the French pronunciation when referring to the river (though many of us English speakers living in Niger do often say "the /niːˈʒɛər/ river"). --seberle (talk) 14:00, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Discovery of the Niger
After 16 years, Wikipedia finally has the correct information who first mapped/recorded the course of the Niger. It was not Mungo Park, who believed the Niger and Congo were the same river and died trying to prove it. It took another 25 years after his death for someone(s) to explore the full length of the river establishing its true course. It is fitting that a river that perplexed so many for so long would leave Wikipedia confused for 16 years. -- Green  C  18:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Leo Africanus vs. Cadamosto (vs. Ramusio?)

 * Quick follow-up on some earlier observations. I had challenged above the claim that Leo Africanus was the first to use the term "Niger", that it was used by Alvise Cadamosto two decades before that.  But some further research has made me hold my fire, and so just thought it worthwhile recording it here.
 * Leo Africanus's account first appears in a 1550 Italian volume edited by Giovanni Battista Ramusio (Primo volume delle navigationi et viaggi nel qua si contine la descrittione dell'Africa, et del paese del Prete Ianni, on varii viaggi, dal mar Rosso a Calicut,& infin all'isole Molucche, dove nascono le Spetierie et la navigatione attorno il mondo, published in Venice in 1550 online). But this very same Ramusio volume contains a reprint of Alvise Cadamosto's "Navigationi".  The observation that is interesting is that Cadamosto's text is the first to name the river "Senegal", but then goes on to note the Senegal River used to be called the "Niger" by the Ancients ("questo  ramo fu chiamoto da gli antichi Niger", ch.14/p.110 in Ramusio, 1550). He notes that the Senegal-Niger and the Egyptian Nile are both branches of the Gihon River (the Biblical river of Eden).
 * As Cadamosto wrote and published his account in 1507, well before Leo Africanus, that would make Cadamosto the first to use the term "Niger" for this river.
 * HOWEVER, a quick verification of the very first edition of Cadamosto "Navigizationi" in 1507 (that is, in the volume edited by Francanzano Montalboddo in 1507 called Paesi novamente retrovati et Novo Mondo da Alberico Vesputio Florentino intitulato, published in Vicenza, 1507 online), this specific passage is not there. In his original 1507 edition, Cadamosto only says that the Senegal River comes from the same source as the Egyptian Nile, but makes no mention of the term "Niger" or "Gihon". (see the relevant passage in Montalboddo's 1507 Paesi ch.14). So clearly the Cadamosto passage in the 1550 edition about the river being called the "Niger" by the ancients was something that was added by the editor Giovanni Battista Ramusio in 1550, that was not there in the original 1507 version.  Since Ramusio was also the editor of the first edition of Leo Africanus, Ramusio may have been added this to Cadamosto because of Leo.  But he doesn't insinuate so. So I can't help wondering if Ramusio himself also meddled with Leo Africanus's text in the same volume, and that the term "Niger", or at least its etymology, was invented by Ramusio, derivative of his own classical speculations.
 * Since this is all based on primary texts, I can't add it to the article. But I was wondering if any experts here had come across secondary literature that noticed the same peculiarity.  Walrasiad (talk) 10:28, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Much before those authors, it was already used by Martianus Capella (ca. A. D. 425). The article must be corrected. Geologichamamé (talk) 14:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

undo Protection
This article has been protected, requiring admin approval of edits, for five years. I think that is long enough that we can hope whatever problems led to the protection have gone away, so I have turned off protection. Anybody can now edit this article. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:26, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Help me edit the history section to make it less Euro-centric
The History section focuses almost entirely on the European knowledge and exploration of the river, from the ancient Greeks to the present. Can anyone knowledgeable on the subject help me change that, and write about the local history from pre-history through the Mali and Songhay empires? I am not an expert, but if you give me some links to good information on the non-European history of the river, I can work to improve the History section. Riverhugger (talk) 20:18, 7 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I took a shot at writing a quick pre-European history overview. It's a little too focused on the Niger bend region, though. Feel free to add on. Riverhugger (talk) 06:19, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Arabs in Roman times?
The article says, providing no source:


 * Or it may be a direct translation by Leo Africanus from Arabic bilād as-sūdān (بلاد السودان) "Land of the Blacks", into Latin (Niger "black").

And, well, in times of Leo Africanus I don't think anyone near the Niger spoke Arabic. If there is no source for this claim, it should be removed.


 * I am unaware of this hypothesis. However, Leo Africanus lived in the 16th century, not Roman times. Islam (and Arabic) had reached the Niger River many centuries earlier. But I agree that this claim needs to be sourced. I will add a tag.

--77.75.179.1 (talk) 03:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Etymology
The etymology need to be rechecked against good linguistic sources. The article at present is inconsistent. It says that the first reference to the name is in a work dated 1550, but then it speaks of the name appearing on medieval maps (the medieval period ended around 1450). Meanwhile further up this talk page, someone has information about the name appearing in Pliny, which is pre-medieval. This article suggests the name is derived from a Berber phrase, but the infobox (like our article on Nigeria) has a different derivation from an apparently unrelated Tuareg phrase. (Of course, the Tuareg are Berbers, but still, it looks like the two theories are mutually exclusive.) At any rate, it is clear that this name is not from the Latin niger, and has no connection with the n-word, and possibly the etymology section should state that explicitly. Doric Loon (talk) 10:59, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

wording in pollution blurb
"Around ninety percent (90%) of plastics within the sea comes from fair 10 waterways. Nine of these streams are found in Asia and one of them borders Thailand. "

This seems poorly phrased. Thailand is in Asia, so to say 9 of 10 and one borders Thailand is redundant, and what does Thailand have to do with this article anyway? Not sure I get the use of "fair" here either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aapold (talk • contribs) 18:58, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * I agree. Much of this new section is poorly phrased. I do not even understand some of the sentences. I have removed it until a better version can be written. --seberle (talk) 13:48, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Seberle Hi there, your removal of that section was very correct, I was rather actioning from a previous revision which made the think that you were adding. I undid my action already and APOLOGIES :) Vanderwaalforces (talk) 14:40, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
 * No problem; it happens. Thanks for being vigilant. seberle (talk) 12:57, 5 January 2024 (UTC)