Talk:Nightwish/Archive 3

December 2008 – February 2024

Departure/Dismissal
This edit replaces "Dismissal" with "Departure", which is better in terms of NPOV, but is it historically accurate? If it is a better word, should we replace it throughout the article? --Northernhenge (talk) 13:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC).
 * I don't see why we can't use dismissal. That's what actually happened, she was fired by the other members. At least to me, departure sounds like it was her own choice, which it was not. - Aki (talk) 00:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Pstanton (talk) 04:18, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Genres
So here comes the discussion again, this time with opera metal. PSIMagnet17: Just read [|the archive]. Until consensus is reach we'll just call them "symphonic power metal". - Aki (talk) 10:55, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * There's that, and the fact that the terms symphonic metal and opera metal are synonymous. :P Byakuya Truelight (talk) 11:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Not really, symphonic metal has nothing to do with opera. - Aki (talk) 18:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Really? Type opera metal into a Wikipedia search, see what page comes up. :P Byakuya Truelight (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Opera metal is a very small subgenre in symphonic metal. As the article says, some symphonic metal singers sing operatic vocals. Some. Not all. I.e. opera metal != symphonic metal. - Aki (talk) 14:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, fair enough. I get that. ^_^ But I may as well add to the argument about Nightwish's genre now. Considering that Anette is definitely not operatic, they can't be considered opera metal, though they still retain their symphonic elements. I think I'll make that all I have to add. :P Byakuya Truelight (talk) 15:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * One page that comes up is Last.fm, where it says: "We don’t have a description for this tag yet". The wider issue, of course, it that genres are very subjective. (We can, though, see the way that people tag things on sites like Last.fm and indeed Wikipedia.) --Northernhenge (talk) 15:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The problem with opera metal is that it's not a genre. Symphonic metal is a genre and you have to all at the bands. That bands that play symphonic metal the most come from power and black metal. Look at a band like Emperor they play Symphonic Black Metal. It has more to do with the sound of the music then the vocals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.224.211.86 (talk) 21:42, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed "described by some people as epic metal...", because
 * 1) There's no genre called "epic metal" (And even considering the deleted "Epic metal" page, it dealt with bands like Manowar and Manilla Road - same genre with Nightwish, are they?)
 * 2) "some people say..." "many people say..." is a typical weasel word. Editor should have wrote "I say" )) Either we quote a magazine or person, and it is not "some people", but "magazine X, journalist Y", either we have no this phrase at all. The choise of latter seems obvious.Garret Beaumain (talk) 00:42, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Opera Metal is not a genre indeed, but neither Symphonic Metal for that matter, despite what wikipedia users want to believe. Symphonic Power Metal is correct for Nightwish ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 03:20, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed opera metal is not a genre, but that has nothing to do with it. Some call them opera metal, that is a fact with sources. The article did not claim them to BE opera metal, merely that some people say they are. And I do think we should have a section or subsection about the genres, including what they really are, and what different people call them, etcetera. - Aki (talk) 13:36, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Image
Why to use a collage of low-resolution clips, cut from photos of different years, when there's a lot of good photos of the whole band? User Snow White Queen never explained the photo change, so I revert it to the original one.Garret Beaumain (talk) 11:24, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I have a lot of high-quality seperate photos of all the then-members (Jukka, Tuomas, Emppu, Jukkas, Anette and Troy) that I took during a gig that I could upload to replace many of the blurry ones currently in the article. Loghete (talk) 14:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC)

Tarja picture in the "Musical style" section
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nightwish&curid=83440&diff=293218462&oldid=293065138 Why the edit? Quispiam (talk) 18:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Good question. Why didn't you undo the edit yourself? Deletions without explanation may also be undone without explanation. Anyway, I've now restored the image. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:45, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Genres, part 2
Okay. Here's the thing. Genres in the infobox and article main need to be backed up with reliable sources. heavymetal.about.com is not a reliable source. It's one person on an ad-supported blog. Therefore, allmusic and metalcrypt remain the best sources found so far. If you object to this, please discuss it here, not by reverting the article. tedder (talk) 13:54, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Yet you went and removed metalcrypt souces. and about.com and a reliable souces so is music might. I sourced all three of those about a week ago and then you and other's go and change them all. Either put it back the way it was or move on. I used metalcrypt only to have others remove it. I used it a number of times for the power metal part and yet it was removed.

http://www.metalcrypt.com/pages/review.php?revid=784 http://www.metalstorm.ee/bands/band.php?band_id=1&bandname=Nightwish musicmight, etc all have them listed as power metal, gothic metal, and symphonic metal that's it.

and instead of leaving them you people edit them for just one site. Now I know why Bardin was pissed off. --Epica124 (talk) 14:05, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

But what is really funny is that a site owned by The New York Times Company is not a reliable source.--Epica124 (talk) 14:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I think metalstorm and metalcrypt are reliable, but about.com certainly isn't. Look at the archives of WP:RSN, it's been discussed before. Feel free to start a new topic there to ask also- just make sure post a link to the thread here. tedder (talk) 14:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

metalstorm is user edited and even that shows them as being a Power metal band and even that is taken out. So you know what do what you want. Like I said now I know wny Bardin got pissed off and seems to have left. --Epica124 (talk) 14:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Even sties such as Metal Archives that people can't use have them listed as power metal. --Epica124 (talk) 14:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I used metalcrypt you guys removed it. But forget it do what ever you guys want. It does not really seem to matter what any does I could use all the top metal mags in the world and they would be taken out. So whatever I have better things to do with my time. --Epica124 (talk) 15:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I though this was already being cleared up centuries ago, anyways, as we all know Nightwish gengre has been defined by critics as "power metal", "symphonic metal", "folk metal", "gothic metal" even "thrash metal", and many more depending on the song and/or album, so we can say Nightwish gengre is not an easy one to describe with only one word, and if you ask me, when its about gengres of bands and musicians is best to talk about it for a very good time like normal persons until we have all a clear idea of what we are going to put and what not, because if we look on the internet we can find "reliable sources" that can say things like children of bodom being hawaian pop, britney spears being emo and this perfect example that is in this article, nightwish being black metal, excuse my laughts, but please...(a symphonic black metal act click here) I think I made my point very clear, its up to you if you think the same or wanna keep on this "nightwish is black metal" thing and only trust these so called "realiable sources", your call...

Another point I wanna make is about the gothic and folk metal term used to described Nightwish sound, I admmit they have some abiental-dark-gothic elements in some songs like Nemo and Bless the Child (for saying only 2), as also their folk metal elements in songs like The Islander, Last of the Wilds, Creek Mary's Blood and the Angels Fall First album (and even other songs, just cited these to make use of the wikipedia content of this article) and all this elements are included on the "Music" section, and its fine, as I already said, Nightwish sound its not an easy deal to just say "its that and that, period", but I dont think their primary gengre should be described as gothic or folk, I mean, they have that sound on some songs but its not what predominates in all of their musical style and I think things would be easier if in the gengre section we put only the one it predominates the most and then specify in the "Music" section all of the elements that can describe Nightwish sound in different albums, singles, etc (section wich by the way now is very well described).

Well I hope I made my point well, and being said all that, I think the gengre that predominate the most is "Symphonic power metal" but another option if we can't decide a primary gengre for the band, then let's just put a "See below" link, like I said before, the "Music" section is very well informed and decribed.--201.208.37.93 (talk) 16:43, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

That's very well said but the sad part is they ask for reliable souces when you give reliable souces they now edit them out for just one. I used metalcrypt for power metal only to have it edit out. The problem is we have a few people here that want it there way or the highway. So I say let them do what ever they want and let them run it how ever they want. I mean really I find it funny that they question half the reliable sites. I mean really let's at the wall street journal what better thing to use for info about the enocmy then that paper. Oh but the site might have ads on it so never mind. --Epica124 (talk) 17:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I also find it funny that tedder is not posting anything. He is the one the brought this up. --Epica124 (talk) 17:26, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

arbitrary section break
I have several problems with the current genre classification and the sourcing of it: —Ruud 19:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The most important one is probably writing style: if a band defies being classified under a single sub-genre listing it as an "A/B metal band" (for relevant values of A and B) would be okay. If you look hard enough and find sources listing the band under 5 different genres, calling it an A/B/C/D/E metal band is not. Pick the one or two most prominent and put the rest in the infobox.
 * A reliable source would be one written by an established reviewer, not a user-submitted review on any website. And even that case you still have to be very careful with the metadata that is later added to such a review (as with the "symphonic black metal" pointed out above.) And even this would probably not lead to the intended result. Wikipedia should mention what the general opinion of all reviewers is, not what the opinion of one particular reviewer in one particular review is (especially if the review didn't explicitly try to define and discuss the genre.)
 * The sources do not always back the claims made in this article: e.g. http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:dbfixqwjldhe writes that Nightwish is "Following in the footsteps of [...] goth-influenced "symphonic" metal bands with female vocalists", which is not really the same as calling it a gothic metal band.


 * And on a more constructive note: my preferences, which also seems to be the prominent opinion on this talk page, would be to call them a "symphonic/power metal band" or "symphonic/power metal band with gothic influences". —Ruud 20:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Ruud you bring up many great points and it brings to light the problem with using allmusic.com --Epica124 (talk) 21:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The irony is that I often find the crowd-sourced tag cloud at Last.fm to be a much more accurate and reliable reflection of a band's genre than the "reliably sourced" classifications in Wikipedia. Of course Last.fm cannot be used as a source, as being crowd-sourced means it's not a reliable source according to Wikipedia's definition, while the sources used at Wikipedia probably wouldn't be classified as reliable for that purposes by any crowd of people and often ultimately only reflect the opinion of a single person. That single person also being more often the last editor of the page than the author of the sources used to back that opinion. —Ruud 21:45, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Which in many ways hurts wikipedia. --Epica124 (talk) 22:25, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I think we all made our points very clear, the only thing left is that tedder say something and reach an agreement--201.208.37.93 (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Reading this talk page and it archives doens't reveal any opposition to classifying them as "symphonic/power metal". I don't even think tedder does. His argument mainly seems to rely on discounting some references as unreliable, while assigning too much to another. —Ruud 23:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Which is the whole problem to being with. I was using more then one reference. For Power, Symphonic and Goth metal. Allmusic may be good for some things but genres they are not. Emperor is Symphonic Black Metal. Nightwish is not even close to what Symphonic Black Metal is. Heck they are not even Black Metal unless they are going back the fact that Tuomas Holopainen played in a Black Metal band but he also played in a Doom Metal band as well. Heck Isaac Delahaye the new guitar player of Epica played in a Death Metal band but I would not list Epica as such not unless they start to have songs that fall into the sound that Dark Tranquillity, In Flames, and At The Gates started (that sound being Meloidc Death metal). --Epica124 (talk) 00:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Epica, Ruud, I'm not real concerned about what the genres actually are. But I'm certainly not a fan of removing sources considered reliable and replacing them with less reliable sources, or no sources at all! Here's an edit by epica124 removing all sources in the 'genre' field, and one by Ruud Koot removing all sources and including an unsourced/OR genre. Again, whatever we feel the genres are doesn't matter. It matters what the reliable sources call the band. If the New York Times wrote that they are a synthpop group, we should say so.
 * The delay on replying was because I had to travel cross-country to get home after visiting family in the hospital. tedder (talk) 01:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * My point in removing them was that these sources are (individually) not reliable at all. —Ruud 10:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Kind of like the fact that I just point out that about.com is ran by The new your times and that I used metalcrypt for the Power metal source and yet still had it removed by you and others. In fact I had Gothic, Power, and Symphonic metal all there with a source last week only for them to all be removed. So don't tell me I'm removing sources. I sorucred them went away for a week and then come back to see ever thing I did was ruined. So all I have to say to this is Bah. Use what ever source you want. I don't really care. I'm just shocked that I sourced All three genres and many many sites agree on Power, Symphonic and Gothic yet they are removed and Heavy metal, and Symphonic Black Metal are put in there place. So I wasted time that I could have spent playing World of Warcraft to stop the editing. What a really poor way to run a site. --Epica124 (talk) 04:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to point out that allmusic is also a site with ads and are nothing more the blogs. Case in point http://www.allmusic.com/ if you go to the front page you have ads. --Epica124 (talk) 04:40, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I understand you are a fan of about.com and not of allmusic. That's a much larger issue than this talk page, though. As I said, take that to WP:RSN and post a link here. tedder (talk) 06:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Here allmusic calls them "symphony-enhanced power metal" in the review, but with the exact same strange genres in the metadata in the sidebar as in the other review. More in this and this review. —Ruud 11:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Tedder I do not agree with your overly simple interpretation of Wikipedia policies. If we would strictly adhere all Wikipedia policies we should also explicitly attribute all opinions to the people who hold them and we would have to open this article with "Nightwish is, according to the metadata at a review by Steve Huey at Allmusic, a symphonic black metal band ....". However as this is the only time I've ever heard anyone call them a symphonic black metal band, this opinion is, by WP:NPOV, not major enough to belong in the lead. This is was my point of claiming that none of the references provided so far are reliable and removing them from the article. They were added to create a false sense of the current article text being backed by a majority opinion of reviewers and music fans, while in reality being just as (un)authoritative as any other text made up here on this talk page. What we need is a truly reliable source: one that explicitly explores the genre of Nightwish and summarizes all the major opinions on this subject. Not one single source that only ad hoc mentions some genre. Until the time such a source is found, if it exists, we should try to synthesize this information from a large number of sources and the talk page consensus seem to be that symphonic metal and power metal are used most often to describe the musical style of Nightwish. —Ruud 10:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

No,the majority of the sources described them symphonic or gothic! for example http://www.seaoftranquility.org/reviews.php?op=showcontent&id=5780 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.30.162.12 (talk) 14:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's what I add sense most sites like Nightwish as a Symphonic, Power or Gothic Metal band I put those at the top of the page. I also left them in the info box. I put the Heavy metal and Symphonic Black metal parts in the sytle part of the page. If there is more then one site that ends up listing them as Symphnoic Black metal and Heavy metal I would be fine in adding them in the info box and the top of the page. I took the links out from the info box because it looks really really bad having that much stuff there. So Symphnoic Black metal and Heavy metal just in the style part. --Epica124 (talk) 23:52, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed with what you did Epica, I only want to say one thing, if we read the music section of the article mentions as well gothic metal, but it looks it catches more atention on the symphonic and power metal part, leaving gothic metal just as some element included on their music in some songs/albums, but not a part of their main styles, so im going to take away the gothic metal gengre out of the infobox, If you do not agree with me its ok but please lets discuss things here and not do an edit-war.--201.208.37.93 (talk) 23:57, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Do you know why I moved the Symphonic Black metal and Heavy metal genres? Only one site has anything about them being in those genres. Many sites have listed them as Gothic metal. You take it out again and I will be sure to have the page locked down again. There will not be any edit war because no one will be able to edit it. --Epica124 (talk) 00:44, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Hey dude take it easy, I was just saying something I noticed, besides this article before had only symphonic and power metal on the infobox and was just fine until the allmusic thing came up, why are you getting so upset? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.208.37.93 (talk) 04:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

What does that say? Wikipedia is based on sources not on personal opinions. There are various sources wherever that consider NIGHTWISH as GOTHIC. especially sites Germans, Scandinavians, Dutch, French and Italians!! Instead, there are not many English sources, but there are and are reliable. Then there are also musical encyclopedias or books that are printed in Europe. EPICA124 and others are right. Stop it because Wikipedia is not made only from your personal opinions, but respect those of all, and gives importance to the sources. remove sources is vandalism. do not do more please. you should respect the sources and the opinions of others!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.30.164.17 (talk) 14:34, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't even see Nightwish as Gothic Metal nor do I see Epica as Gothic Metal. But there are major sites that say other wise. I don't have to agree with them but it's what the major sites say. If Rolling Stone Mag came out and said Nightwish was Gothic Metal then you have to add it in. I don't agree with them but what I want is not the same as how Wikipedia wants it. --Epica124 (talk) 15:53, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Right! Rolling Stone is an important magazine and ,as I said before, Wikipedia gives importance to the sources.it respects the evolution of musical genres and new names. Currently the European Critical (especially the French, Scandinavian and Italian) treats them also as goth. so there's nothing to clarify. things are all too clear. wikipedia must be respected. remove sources is vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.17.209.207 (talk) 16:28, 28 November 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a more recently discussion about the theme lower, please discuss there, I believe some user gave other explanations--201.208.37.93 (talk) 23:13, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

"Wind Emblazed"

 * "In the June 2009 edition of the Finnish magazine, Soundi, Holopainen stated he had started work on the new album. In October 2009, the working title of the album was revealed as Wind Emblazed."

I can't find a single source on this. a search on Google only shows one reliable site, being Wikipedia. Quispiam (talk) 15:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm deleting the whole idea of that name since the man adding it doesn't respond me, and I can't find a single source. Seems like a fake leak to me. Quispiam (talk) 18:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, the only mentions of "Wind Emblazed/Embraced" are from Last.fm or Wikipedia. Though, from the Last.fm Nightwish shoutbox DarkSymphony500 wrote:
 * "I found out that Toumas Holopainen spoke about the new album in a Finish magazine and the new album title was translated from Finish. But the words got mispelt from emblazed to embraced."

VioLetJade (talk) 20:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It's still just a rumor, sort of. Quispiam (talk) 17:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the information on the album title but got re-reverted. Now the article says (with a reference to a blog which in turn refers to this article!):


 * ”In the June 2009 edition of the Finnish magazine, Soundi, Holopainen stated he had started work on the new album. In October 2009, the working title of the album was revealed as Wind Embraced. The title has been translated from the original Finnish which is "Tuuli Ottaneet"”

"Tuuli ottaneet" doesn’t make any sense in Finnish but rather sounds like a machine translation of something. I checked both the June–July and October ’09 issues of Soundi and didn’t see any mention in regard to the future album title, so where did this come from? Magazine name, number of issue and page, and preferrably a scan too, please. Otherwise it will have to be reverted again, Wikipedia isn’t the right place for rumors. I don’t understand what’s the rush anyway, they won’t even start recording the album until a year from now (according to Holopainen in Soundi issue 6–7/2009). –Kooma (di algo) 14:33, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, there's been nothing concrete. THe album article itself can probably be deleted under DB-A9. Rehevkor ✉  16:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Tours?
I've noticed the "main article" for the history sections are being changed from the albums to the tours. But wouldn't the tours be in support of the albums, making the albums the "main" articles? Especially considering the tour articles consist mostly of lists of tour dates with very little context? Rehevkor ✉  22:41, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't agree with you. An album is just an album, while a tour takes a large part of the band's time. An album doesn't have to be set for a specific time, but can be re-released several times. A tour can last for years, and when it's done it's done. Quispiam (talk) 22:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Gothic?
Who the hell added gothic tag, based on some fan sites? It should be removed as not relevant. Wikipedia's reputation is declining from such a "popular identifications" with goth and emo tags used for everything. As it was previously done with HIM and Marilyn Manson, contraversional tags should be left aside of intro and box, and only listed under "some critics also called the band...". Garret Beaumain (talk) 04:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Neither site is a fan site. Do what you are doing here using the talking page. Don't just edit out things that have a ref tag to it. I don't agree with Gothic Metal either. --Epica124 (talk) 22:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Only this of your links leads to a review which considers Once a goth metal (although author just obviously didn't knew that Symphonic metal exist). This is a minority opinion and it is enough to mention it in music style section, not in the band's infobox. Additionally, Sonic Cathedral is not a published media and just a webzine. I'm removing goth metal from infobox and intro, it can stay in the Musical style section along with "Heavy metal" and other tags applied at least once. Garret Beaumain (talk) 05:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Sonci Cathedral is one of the biggest sites on the net that deals with female fronted metal. I'm also going to point out that the site has had many interviews with the bands. They also sell a lot of music on there site. It's not just a simple webzine. The have major writers on the subject. Lords of Metal is also a majore site. You also have http://www.revelationz.net/index.asp?ID=2401 http://www.chartattack.com/news/44704/finnish-gothic-metallers-nightwish-want-to-grow-their-north-american-cult http://www.popmatters.com/music/reviews/n/nightwish-once.shtml

That's more then just a few sites and it's not in the minority. Again I don't agree with them being Gothic metal at all. But a lot of major reviews sites do see them as Gothic Metal. --Epica124 (talk) 23:37, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Sonci Cathedral is still just a webzine, "simple" or not. As well as with Marilyn Manson and HIM, goth tag is misused by webzines, and it may be mentioned in music style section with attribution as "certain webzine label band as...", but never in intro, which says "the band IS". Intro shoud contain only the general and undisputed information about the subject, all points of view belong to their sections with attribution.

Please stop adding it to infobox. This point of view is already covered in the section it does belong to. Not for the infobox and intro, which should contain only general and undisputed information about the band.Garret Beaumain (talk) 08:14, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

All of that was already done. Ever part of it and it was agreed to have Gothic Metal there. But you know what do what you want. I don't care I have better things to do with my time. --Epica124 (talk) 00:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Symphonic Power Gothic Metal
sonuds absolutly rediculus. Perhaps it sould just state "Nightwish is a heavy Metal band..." and state specific subgenres in the infobox. the way it is looks dumb. Ducky610 (talk) 00:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. While I cannot comment on the genres themselves, it seems to be common practice to keep the genre in the lead generic, as you suggested. I'd go with "metal" myself. Then keep specific genres (sourced) in the info box and or main body of the article. Rehevkor ✉  01:33, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'd go with simply "symphonic metal", because I don't think anyone argues that. And then in the infobox as well as the musical style-section it can be discussed further. Quispiam (talk) 01:59, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

ok, I've changed it to say "Nightwich is a metal band...", I think this is more apropriate as be it symphonic, power or gothic they still play metal. How does this sound? Ducky610 (talk) 12:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

No it's not ok because you took out thigns that have sources to them. --Epica124 (talk) 17:46, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Wait what? You can't erase anything sourced now? I think you misunderstood some of Wikipedia's basic rules. The text Ducky610 erased was irrelevant, no matter if it was sourced. If I added fifty lines about Nietzsche by the end of the Nightwish article, would you not be able to erase it even if it's sourced? Quispiam (talk) 03:09, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, I erased it because saying they are a symponic power gothic metal band is rediculus when it can just be stated that they are a metal band with specific subgenres listed in the infobox and musical style sections. I wasn't trying to remove information that I don't agree with. If need be can the sources not be added to the musical style section which goes deeper into the subgenres?? Ducky610 (talk) 06:11, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I checked through the musical style-section and it has a pretty okay description, but as we have noticed the band is called different genres by different sources, something that we could throw in a whole paragraph about. I don't really want to do that right now, but if anyone wants to, feel free. Quispiam (talk) 02:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Style of writing in "history" section non-formal?
I think the history section is written in more of a narrative style than a formal style. Have tagged it with a story template. Thedeepestblue (talk) 21:06, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

New album
To all,

I suggest that you take a look at this. It contains information about the new album:

Anette Olzon's Official Blog

Peter88823 (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Section headings
The heck, guys. "Conagration"? That's not even a word, and it's been in the section heading for a couple weeks. I don't even know what word it's going for

Anyway. I think I like the old section headings ([]) better than the current ones, but I don't want to change them back in case there was a good reason for the change. Twilight Realm (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Dragonlance/LOTR references
"Songs such as “Wishmaster,” "Elvenpath," and “Wanderlust” seem to be heavily influenced by the novels. References to The Kharolis Mountains, 'Shalafi' and Krynn, as well as 'Elbereth,' the 'Rings of Power' and 'Gray Havens', can be found in these songs."

Whereabouts are Kharolis Mountains and Krynn mentioned?

Not apparently in these three songs.

Wishmaster references "Shalafi", Silvara, the Inn of the Last Home and Sla-Mori from DL and Lorien, Elbereth and Grey Havens from LOTR. Wanderlust gets its title from DL. Elvenpath mentions Bilbo and the Master Ring from LOTR. None of them seem to mention the Kharolis Mountains or Krynn.

I hope this isn't a made-up claim, it's all over the web now, copied direct from here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.24.18.215 (talk) 01:31, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Gothic metal
Nightwish is NOT gothic metal, having a female singer or a retarded critic who notes them with the genre just to attract listeners does not make them gothic. --95.65.162.85 (talk) 08:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If a reliable source says they're gothic metal, then Wikipedia lists them as gothic metal. I recommend you read this article before you make any more genre edits, on this page or any other. --LordNecronus (talk) 10:17, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * That is not a good way to start a discussion. Come back when you are able to discuss things like an adult. Rehevkor ✉  19:05, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay. The "Musical style" section clearly states that the band playes a blend of symphonic metal and power metal (by the way it was changed without any reason to gothic metal but if you go and look at the history you will realize that the original text said power -and the whole text does not make sense at all as the changed version), and it also states that the band's association with gothic metal is controversial. So why include gothic metal in the infobox when in the article it is said that "their music is a blend of symphonic metal and power metal; some critics consider them as a gothic metal act but it is not a view that is shared by everyone." ?

I think no one could disclaim thieir association with symphonic metal and power metal, and no one does. However, the gothic metal tag is not accepted by everyone. If gothic metal is OK, then why "symphonic black metal" is not included there ? Allmusic tags them with that genre. --178.242.247.46 (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Now that's a much better way to start a discussion. Anyway, you have a point; because their status as gothic metal is controversial, it's not a good idea to include it in the infobox, since the genres in the infobox should be relatively uncontroversial (which is why, for example, System of a Down don't have nu-metal in their infobox). As for the claim regarding symphonic black metal: it's factually incorrect to call Nightwish "symphonic black metal", regardless of what Allmusic says, so it's not used as a citation. --LordNecronus (talk) 18:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

They have sources and you can't just go taking them out just becasue you don't agree with said sources it's vandalism. --Epica124 (talk) 00:34, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm agree with epica124. gothic metal is OK and also there are many sources. wikipedia is based on sources. remove sources is considered vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.23.105.126 (talk) 05:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Genre again
Since we have a reliably sourced musical style section, do we really need sources in the infobox? Especially with questionable sources.. none of which have been established as reliable sources, some are listed under WP:ALBUM/REVSIT as non professional reviews, if we can't use them for reviews, we certainly can't use them for genres. There have also been changes to "operatic metal" which not only redirects to Symphonic metal anyway, but no consensus or sources has been reached or provided. Rehevkor ✉  03:49, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sources are important. we want to see them. allmusic and metalstorm are reliable sources because they are already widely used in wikipedia to report genres —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.143.143 (talk) 01:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Metalstorm has not been established as a reliable source. Rehevkor ✉  01:39, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

sorry, not only metalstorm, but also other important sites as chartattack.com, revelationz.net, allmusic.com and popmatters.com speak of gothic metal. wikipedia is not a your opinion! you must respect wikipedia citing sources and you must stop vandalize. thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.143.143 (talk) 09:56, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry Mr IP, but I have zero opinion on the genre, just as long as it's reliably sourced. Rehevkor ✉  11:12, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Of the four sites used as sources for gothic metal in the infobox on this page: --LordNecronus (talk) 10:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * MetalStorm is a user-edited site, and is therefore an unreliable source.
 * Allmusic is a reliable source (unfortunately), but we don't use the genre infoboxes on Allmusic as citations; Nightwish actually have to be called "gothic metal" or "goth metal" in the main body of text.
 * Lords of Metal seems like a reliable source, but once again the review doesn't actually call Nightwish gothic metal or goth metal in the main body of text. The review itself is sorted into a gothic metal category on the website, but I don't know if that would count as a citation (if it does, then I can reliably site Marilyn Manson(!) as gothic metal).
 * RevelationZ might be a reliable source, but the review doesn't even refer to Nightwish as gothic metal or goth metal at any point. Saying that they moved towards a more "commercial" gothic sound is not a citation for their genre.

so gothic is ok. also missing quotes reliable for power. where they are written? please we see sources signed. please don't delete multiple sources. respected wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.143.143 (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * why you don't want to use the genre infoboxes on allmusic as citations?'Who decided that?
 * metal-observer is another source.
 * Lords of Metal is a reliable source and the band nightwish is into gothic metal category. not climb on mirrors please. it's clear. there is nothing else to say.
 * revelationz says explicitly that from the album Century Child Nightwish left influences power.
 * chartattack.com is an important sources. (example: http://www.chartattack.com/news/44704/finnish-gothic-metallers-nightwish-want-to-grow-their-north-american-cult )

I don't believe Lords of Metal can be considered reliable, just a community site/glorified blog, no editorial oversight. The reason there's no need for sources in he infobox is because it's already reliably sourced in the prose (as has been pointed out several times), it's unnecessary. Rehevkor ✉  11:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I respect your opinion but wikipedia isn't a site of opinions. it's instead an encyclopedia, then you should observe sources (like allmusic,chartattack,lordsofmetal etc.) to which it refers. also missing sources reliable for power. where they are written? please we see sources signed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.143.143 (talk) 11:28, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the lecture. I am well aware of how things work here, and we do no observe sources, we observe reliable sources and consensus (collaborative project, remember). You are a: assuming bad faith/opinion b: inserting unreliably sourced information c: changing reliable sourced information d: failing to achieve a consensus. Please desist until a consensus has been achieved. Rehevkor ✉  14:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

it takes even a consensus to include sources deemed reliable already?no, not so.or at least, I suppose not. In fact in wikipedia anyone is free to enter information supported by reliable sources. and allmusic,chartattack and probably also lordsofmetal are relieble sources.until proven otherwise. please, do you wrote to me a link (o two link) with the prose reliable where it's decrypt the music genre of band? so all users can read to understand how are reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.143.143 (talk) 15:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Hm, a lot happened since I last posted here. Anyway: --LordNecronus (talk) 17:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The RevelationZ review does not specifically refer to Nightwish as a gothic metal band. Calling them "gothic" is not the same as calling them "gothic metal". The site itself may be reliable, but it doesn't call them "gothic metal", at least not in that review.
 * Lords of Metal hasn't been established as a reliable source. Even if it is a reliable source, their citation for Nightwish's gothic metal status is very murky; all they do is put them in a gothic metal category, there's nothing in the main body of text that mentions gothic metal.
 * I haven't looked at the Chartattack source yet, but from what I can tell, it seems to hold up as a citation for their genre. I'm not sure of its reliability, however.
 * I also haven't looked at metal-observer's apparent citation for their genre. Post it here, please.

hi! here the link : www.metal-observer.com/ articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=13549

I put what I wrote before because nobody responded to it. "do you wrote to me a link (o two link) with the prose reliable where it's decrypt the music genre of band? so all users can read to understand how are reliable sources." please see also chartattack! repeat: also allmusic is a reliable source, and if it was no longer considered valid from wikipedia, so no more plugged it in articles, you must say where it was decided. I would like to see the link. until proven otherwise I will continue to use them as reliable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.16.143.143 (talk) 19:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, I read the two sources you provided. The Chartattack article refers to Nightwish as gothic metal twice, so it's a definite citation, but I'm still unsure if it's definitely a reliable source. Metal-observer is apparently a reliable source, and mentions gothic metal in the list of genres, but not in the main body of text. I know with Allmusic the rule is not to use the genre infobox for citations, but I'm unsure if this carries over to other sites.

This might seem a bit rude (if it does, it's unintentional), but I can't actually understand what your request is; your spelling and grammar are rather poor. I'm not trying to insult you by saying this, it's just that I want to know what your request is, and I can't figure out what you're trying to say with the request.

As for your Allmusic statement; it is still a reliable source, but the genre infobox is (as explained previously) not used for citations. I don't know where exactly this was decided, so I can't provide a link; I also don't know the exact reasons behind the rule. --LordNecronus (talk) 22:59, 2 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Metal Observer reviews are bad per ALBUM/REVSIT, so can't be considered reliable for genres either. I'm not sure there's any specific guideline for not using sources in the info box, but it's not really necessary if it's already sourced elsewhere, like not using sources in the lead. It's easier to keep track of the sources if they're only in once place, and that place should be the body of the article. Rehevkor ✉  23:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I have one again mostly rolled back the recent changes. Some points: WP:STATUSQUO should be applied here for the moment, for the most part content has been changed without addressing the attached sources. Rehevkor ✉  13:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Genres sources in prose, doesn't need seven (!) sources in the Infobox. Gothic metal remains in the info box.
 * 2) Not using most of the sources mentioned above - they are either unreliable or not established as reliable, or simply unnecessary.
 * 3) I cannot point to any location for the consensus on genres, but it's spread over years worth of talk pages and archives.
 * 4) "operatic metal" in the prose is not supported by the sources. Cite 77 mentions "operatic vocals", not "operatic metal". Cite 78 is similar. They do support what was already in place. No sources for "operatic metal" at all that I can see. Are there any?
 * 5) Formatting for the genre is correct per Template:Infobox_musical_artist
 * 6) Gothic metal is covered in the prose about half way down the Musical style section.
 * 7) The change to the quote in this video, I don't have time to go through it, so I have left it as is.
 * 8) While I'm at it, I should note this video is of dubious copyright status.
 * 9) Removal of Tony Kakko as a session member. Despite being edit warred over this has received zero explanation, I presume this is just due to a careless use of undo.
 * 10) Change of "trademark power metal" to "trademark operatic power metal" is not supported by the source.
 * Okay.. an IP just edit conflicted with me there. Firefox threw a wobbly and and I had to go through everything again. Hope I didn't miss anything.. Rehevkor ✉  13:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Soo.. we done here? Sweet. Rehevkor ✉  21:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

Song: Lagoon
The song "Lagoon" by Nightwish has a quote from one of Stephen King's books in it. "Feeling lonely and content at the same time. I believe that it's a rare kind of happiness." This quote is from King's "Bag of Bones". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.123.181 (talk) 15:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Musical styles
Where would be the reliable sources that indicate power metal? Please write them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.36.75.173 (talk) 00:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * In the section "Musical style", obviously, where they belong. Apparently (judging from the discussion above), there used to be more in the article but they were deleted by some people on a mission. I've therefore decided to replace the list of genres by simply a reference to the appropriate section, where the issue is discussed in more detail. Unfortunately, musicologists do not usually bother discussing a band's style. That said, power metal is an aspect of their style that was really, really strongly present only on their earliest albums. Ever since, their style has become much more of a mix.
 * "Symphonic metal", which is currently in the lede, describes their (overall) style (covering all their work) best anyway, is uncontroversial and makes sense even to an unitiated reader who has no clue about metal substyles or does not agree with the classification used in Wikipedia ("power metal" and "gothic metal" both being notoriously contested terms that metal fans of different ages tend to have rather different concepts of). --Florian Blaschke (talk) 07:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Added information about the latest split.
I noticed it was announced on their FB page, along with their own website that they are splittling with Annette Olzen. I put up a little blurb about it in the opening paragraphs, next to the mentioning of Tarja. I also cited a third party source for it. I imagine what I've done is acceptable, but I don't edit the wikipedia that often. If someone could double check my handy work, that would be most appreciated. -Poodle of Doom (talk) 15:42, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

A Night At The Ogden Theater
"This announcement came days after Olzon fell ill and was unable to perform; Nightwish used replacement singers from the opening band, Kamelot, and Olzon later expressed her disappointment, saying "I was never asked if it was OK that they used Elize and Alissa in the show [Friday] night [...] I don’t think it’s a good decision they made and I’m sorry for those of you who came to see the whole band but got something else. But I was very ill and this decision wasn’t mine."[71] According to the statement, Floor Jansen (ex-After Forever, ReVamp) will sing for the remainder of the Imaginaerum World Tour."

I was there at the Ogden Theater that night, after Kamelot finished their last song Marco came out on stage and had announced that Annette had been coughing up blood and was sick and was taken to a nearby hospital. The Ogden Theater told Nightwish to cancel the show and have everyone's money refunded. Marco allowed us to vote on it though and the audience actually chose to have Elize and Alissa replace Annette for the night so that we could still enjoy the show. Quite honestly I don't recall hearing any complaining about the show itself, but a lot about the venue. (we had more that 3,000 people shoved into a small standing venue and poor visibility.) But everyone loved the music. In fact on some songs Marco even sang both his and Annette's parts it was fantastic. At the end of the show everyone was even screaming for an encore, we didn't get one but hell Elize and Alissa did a fantastic job in Annette's absence. It seems so rude of Annette to think it was solely her decision to make. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.221.119.190 (talk) 05:22, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

As taken from the talk page rules: "This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." Please refrain from doing so again. 70.66.253.198 (talk) 21:11, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

The new lineup
The band new lineup according to the official website: http://nightwish.com/en/band/members According to the offical Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/nightwish/info

It's important to keep the names in this order:

Floor Jansen - vocals Tuomas Holopainen - keyboards Marco Hietala - bass and vocals Jukka Nevalainen - drums Emppu Vuorinen - guitars Troy Donockley - pipes, flutes and whistles

187.60.66.59 (talk) 21:29, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

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Genres
That was worked out a long time ago. If you want to list other style genres put them in the styles part in the page not the box it looks really bad. Delain123 (talk) 22:40, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Gothic metal and power metal are in the style section and the sources it should be cleaned up some what. Now stop the warring about it. Delain123 (talk) 22:56, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

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Members/former members order
Who joined the band first stay first, as well, who left the band first stay first. Isn't it? So the former members order should be: Sami (left 1999), Tarja (left 2005), Anette (left 2012) and Jukka (left 2019). 179.191.71.66 (talk) 17:33, 22 October 2019 (UTC)

Human. :II: Nature. album title
Hello everyone, a bit of a quick question. The new album has been announced today, though there seems to be a bit difficulty regarding the title of the album. Very unsure about the format of the title, as it seems to written as ''Human. :||: Nature. though many news sources like Kerrang and Blabbermouth have it written as Human. :II: Nature.'' in its headlines and descriptions.

This is a question I have: would the first one work in regards to creating an article for the album? I feel it could cause some difficulty, whereas how the new sources have it written would prove to be less difficult for the creation of an article on the new album. What do you all of you think?

Also, a happy belated birthday to Nightwish bass player Marco Hietala! HorrorLover555 (talk) 18:31, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I've just realized the redirect I created with the album title only worked because the two vertical bars were apparently converted to II (double "I") on an automatic basis. It seems it's indeed technically impossible to have that as the article title. I guess we're gonna have to stick with "Human. :: Nature." or maybe just "Human. Nature.". Anyway, it would be important to add it to Human nature (disambiguation). Victão Lopes  Fala! 23:34, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

Hiatus or touring hiatus?
The last couple months back, Nightwish announced that they would be going on an "indeterminable hiatus" from touring. How should we represent it? I do have at best, two options. This discussion is so that there will not be any future edit warring, should it happen.

Option 1 (Hiatus): We call it a hiatus, and change the years active in the infobox to "1996-2024" with a footnote that explains that they are on hiatus. The current members do not need to be changed to past, as the band has not disbanded technically.

Option 2 (Touring Hiatus): We can keep it the way it is as a "touring hiatus". Nothing needs to be changed.

What do you think? Please state your preference (Hiatus or Touring Hiatus) with your reasoning. HorrorLover555 (talk) 20:20, 18 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Touring hiatus: Just "hiatus" would imply the band is ceasing all activities rather than just touring. They might be using this time to work on other band-related things for all we know. QuietHere (talk &#124; contributions) 06:57, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Wording should follow what reliable source reporting says. How does reliable source reporting phrase it? Bondegezou (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The source provided by Loudwire phrases it as a "touring hiatus". Not sure about the other one from Louder Sound. HorrorLover555 (talk) 16:00, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on Tuomas Holopainen
There is currently a discussion going on at the moment regarding if backing vocals should be added into the infobox for Tuomas Holopainen. The discussion can be found here at Talk:Tuomas Holopainen. Thanks. HorrorLover555 (talk) 02:32, 3 February 2024 (UTC)