Talk:Nikolai Gogol

Ukrainian Cossaks?
There are several Cossaks groups who live and lived in present official territory of Ukraine. Article linked with words "Ukrainian Cossaks" leads to Zaporozhian Cossacks article since it is they who are really referred to in article. Present adjective is misleading and unwarranted by facts. Change it to Zaporozhian Cossacks in this article. Link will provide the context in full. Why prejudice the reader by misnaming it? Smells of crude propaganda. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2402:4000:B281:B9DD:48DB:50BF:A506:2 (talk) 03:42, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

Gogol is Ukrainian!!
Gogol was born in Ukraine and lived there until he was 19. He wrote in Russian because this language was obligarory kn Ukraine due to Russian imperialism. He indeed lived in Russia for some time, but he as well lived in several European countries. The fact that he lived in Russia some years, doesnt make him Russian. Sasha Chu12347 (talk) 15:39, 31 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Absolutly agree!! In my opinion, due to Russian crisis, which our world is suffering from right now, it's really important correct this mistake as soon as possible. Kur4k111n (talk) 10:45, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
 * absolutely it makes no sense what is written here; a Russian writer from Ukraine does not exist. He is Ukrainian.  2601:281:203:2660:C39F:C18E:F7EB:6C92 (talk) 05:28, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The article needs to be updated to remove any biases and potential culture appropriations. For example, Britannica reads "Ukrainian-born humorist, dramatist, and novelist whose works, written in Russian, significantly influenced the direction of Russian literature." This is perfect. Whoever is in charge of editing this article, please, update it accordingly. PhD Cambridge (talk) 09:00, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I would advise you to take a look at discussion page for Igor Sikorsky. Igor too was of Ukrainian ethnic background, he was self referring to himself as Ukrainian, initially he was presenting himself as a Russian but in sense that he at the time saw Ukrainians as one of groups of Russians (just like Tatars, Kalmyks, Komi etc. were seen as Russians at the time). Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 17:41, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's widely known that he was of Ukrainian ethnic origin and was even referring to himself as Ukrainian. Same situation was with Anton Chekhov - he was also an Ukrainian, self referred to himself as one, actually spoke Ukrainian and was publishing in Russian. Mr Fantastic Knowledge (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree too - the adjective that describes Gogol should be related to his nationality, not the language he wrote in. If we keep the description "Russian writer of Ukrainian origin" (if it is decided that language determines the adjective), then Edgar Allan Poe should not be described as "an American writer," but rather "an English writer of American origin." Shwabb1 (talk) 10:23, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
 * That would be Russian-language Ukrainian writer, or Ukrainian writer of Russian-language literature, if the point is to be clear. But I’ll point out that Joseph Conrad is not an “English writer,” either. —Michael Z. 22:38, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

A few questions
Didn't the Ukrainian nationality appear in the mid-nineteenth century in the historical territories of Red Ruthenia controlled by the Austrian Empire in environments associated with the Uniate Church? Didn't the Austrian Germans support the Ukrainian Uniate Church against the Orthodox Ruthenians who sought protection in the Russian Empire? Wasn't it Lviv that was the center of the Ukrainian movement supported by the Austrian Empire. Didn't this movement appear in the Russian Empire only after Gogol's death, in the 1870s, in narrow student circles? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.111.119.54 (talk) 14:58, 3 June 2023 (UTC)


 * nuh uh 216.245.77.37 (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
 * No.
 * Ukrainians are mentioned by that name in English sources by 1760, and Ukraine by 1651. Obviously the names were already in use in Ukraine.
 * Muscovy started suppressing Ukrainian language by 1620; see Chronology of Ukrainian language suppression. The Russian empire persecuted the Brotherhood of Saints Cyril and Methodius in 1847 for privately discussing Ukrainian nationality. It banned Ukrainian language in the 1863 Valuev Circular and 1876 Ems Ukaz.
 * Popular use of Ukraïntsi “Ukrainians” as an ethnonym started in the Russian empire in the nineteenth century by the people that had been officially labelled Malorossy “Little Russians”. In Habsburg lands it was only adopted at the beginning of the twentieth by people that had previously referred to themselves Rusyny or Rusnaky “Ruthenians.”
 * (When did Russian national identity form?) —Michael Z. 15:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 August 2023
The language Gogol wrote in was Ukrainian and Russian. In the same text his Ukrainian upbringing is mentioned, but also usage of Ukrainian language as well as Russian. Moreover in the main head in brackets a Ukrainian spelling of his name should be mentioned - Mykola Gogol, he was stemming from the Ukrainian culture, spoke the language and was Ukrainian. Using Russian lang name spelling only and not mentioning that he also wrote in Ukrainian, removes that part of Gogol's life completely. Lettashtohr (talk) 08:07, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 November 2023
Change from:

Nikolai Vasilyevich Gogol[a] (1 April [O.S. 20 March] 1809[1] – 4 March [O.S. 21 February] 1852) was a Russian novelist, short story writer, and playwright of Ukrainian origin.

To:

Nikolay Gogol, in full Nikolay Vasilyevich Gogol, (born March 19 [March 31, New Style], 1809, Sorochintsy, near Poltava, Ukraine, Russian Empire [now in Ukraine]—died February 21 [March 4], 1852, Moscow, Russia), Ukrainian-born humorist, dramatist, and novelist whose works, written in Russian, significantly influenced the direction of Russian literature. (Source: Britannica) 150.143.107.171 (talk) 04:02, 4 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: I'm fairly certain some of the desired changes may breach certain manual of style conventions - I'd have to research it. More importantly, volunteers are going to need more information on your source rather than just stating it's written somewhere in Britannica. — Sirdog (talk) 05:31, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The above is cribbed directly from the lead of Britannica’s “Nikolay Gogol.” Britannica doesn’t write he was a “Russian” anything since a 2017 update, because the term used in this vague way is misleading. —Michael Z. 19:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

google
is better then wekipida or no 216.245.77.37 (talk) 21:36, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Minor edit
The first two "the"s in this sentence are unnecessary.

"Tsarist authorities encouraged the Ukrainian intellectuals to sever ties with the Poles, promoting a limited, folkloric Ukrainian particularism as part of the heritage of the Russian empire."

"Tsarist authorities encouraged Ukrainian intellectuals to sever ties with Poles, promoting a limited, folkloric Ukrainian particularism as part of the heritage of the Russian empire." CretaceousFella (talk) 14:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 January 2024
Spelling. Wrong version:

His father wrote poetry in Ukrainian as well as Russian, and was an amateur playwright in his own theatre. As was typical of the left-bank Ukrainian gentry of the early nineteenth century, the family was trinlingual speaking Ukrainian as well as Russian, and using Polish mostly in reading. Mother was calling his son Nikola, which is a mixture of the Russian Nikolai and the Ukrainian Mykola. As a child, Gogol helped stage plays in his uncle's home theater.

Right version:

His father wrote poetry in Ukrainian as well as Russian, and was an amateur playwright in his own theatre. As was typical of the left-bank Ukrainian gentry of the early nineteenth century, the family was trilingual, speaking Ukrainian as well as Russian, and using Polish mostly for reading. Mother was calling his son Nikola, which is a mixture of the Russian Nikolai and the Ukrainian Mykola. As a child, Gogol helped stage plays in his uncle's home theater. 178.41.182.163 (talk) 12:24, 28 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅ ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 18:07, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 February 2024
Not all the information about the poet is correct. He wrote not only in Russian but Ukrainian language as well 213.124.223.2 (talk) 22:47, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sincerely, Guessitsavis (she/they) (Talk) 01:45, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 April 2024
Change "Nikolai Vasilyevich Gogol" to "Mykola Vasilyevich Gogol" as his birth name. Change "Russian novelist" to "Ukrainian novelist", as he wrote in "surzhyk" or a mix of Ukrainian and Russian, some of his works were about Ukraine, in Ukrainian, and he was Ukrainian himself. He also wanted to return and live in Kyiv, and identified as Ukrainian in several documents, spoke Ukrainian with his family. Several of his works were banned of forced change onto, because they were "Pro-Ukrainian". 217.180.196.166 (talk) 18:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Charliehdb (talk) 10:30, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Russian-Ukrainian
Greetings @Mellk, it's not very fair for you to first remove sourced info with the justification "already says origin, don't need more refspam", and then remove it again with "most of the other sources disagree with you". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:04, 6 May 2024 (UTC)


 * We already have NINE references for this, so yes, it is not fair that you wish to override them. If you want to change the wording, then you can make your case here (assuming it is a new argument). This has already been discussed to death. Mellk (talk) 18:06, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I see those references are confirming Bojanowska and Ilchuk 's approach of characterizing Gogol as Russian-Ukrainian. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 18:25, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Including the ones that simply call him a Russian writer? The other ones call him a Russian writer and note his Ukrainian upbringing, which is precisely why currently the lead says he is a Russian writer of Ukrainian origin. Mellk (talk) 18:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian nationalist agenda
I find this Ukrainian nationalist hijacking of the page disgusting. The section on Gogol's identity politics is particularly misleading, quoting biased sources. Gogol lived in a time when most Russian and Ukrainian elites subscribed to the Russian Empire and identified as part of a Russian culture which they saw as encompassing Russia and Ukraine, as well as Belarus. For Gogol, to be Russian and Ukrainian was two sides of the same coin and the same civilization. But Ukrainian nationalists are exploiting western sympathy to sell an nationalist distortion of Gogol's background to sell a certain narrative of who Gogol was. Scarsdale.vibe (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, I made a few edits to improve this section, but have to disagree. This section is well sourced and appropriate. Yes, Gogol is a Russian writer, but with very strong Ukrainian cultural connections, as obvious from his writings. No one is saying otherwise. In fact, in his last years he was pretty much an ardent Russian nationalist, as reflected in the famous Letter to Gogol, which needs to be mentioned on the page. My very best wishes (talk) 02:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * P.S. I also changed the title of the section, but do not insist this is the best solution. Every version is wrong version. Welcome to revert or correct. My very best wishes (talk) 21:40, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well that section is primarily based on two 2007 and later books called "Nikolai Gogol: Between Ukrainian and Russian Nationalism" and "Nikolai Gogol: Performing Hybrid Identity" so perhaps we can work from here. At least they are not highlighting "Ukrainian" connections but, the impression I got, equalising both, calling Gogol "Russian-Ukrainian" or "hybrid identity". ManyAreasExpert (talk) 22:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Welcome to fix anything. I was just passing by. My very best wishes (talk) 03:28, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It is interesting to see the Russian government at play even on an open web page. 92.40.213.67 (talk) 19:24, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

The grotesque
This comment regards the sentence "Gogol used grotesque, ...".

Grotesque is an adjective, so "Gogol used the grotesque" would be the correct usage (like with the sublime or the picturesque).

For clarity, it might be beneficial to rephrase it: "Gogol used the grotesque in his writings, ..." or "Gogol frequently employed elements of the grotesque,..."

Source: eg. Edwards, Justin & Graulund, Rune. Grotesque, Routledge, 2013, doi.org/10.4324/9780203383438-9 2001:4C4D:1281:C00:A8AA:D41C:290:7C09 (talk) 16:32, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right. I made the change you suggested. Let us know if it is not what you had in mind. Thank you!
 * Dieter.Meinertzhagen (talk) 02:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024
Change references to nationality from “Russian” to “Ukrainian”. Mykolai Gogol was an ethnically Ukrainian writer, born in Ukraine. He was proud of his Ukrainian heritage as evidenced by his work.

Example: Oscar Wilde was an Irish writer, and is referenced as having an Irish nationality, despite being born in the United Kingdom. He is not a “British” or “English” writer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde 92.40.213.67 (talk) 18:49, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * We should make an assessment on how Gogol is best to be referred to in Ilchuk' and Bojanowska's works. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 21:27, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. PianoDan (talk) 20:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 June 2024 (2)
Division of Literatures, Cultures, and Languages](https://dlcl.stanford.edu/publications/nikolai-gogol-performing-hybrid-identity) [oai_citation:2,Stolen identity: how Nikolai Gogol usurped Mykola Hohol](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/culture/60477/stolen-identity-how-nikolai-gogol-usurped-mykola-hohol).

2. **Influence of Ukrainian Heritage**: In his letters, Gogol frequently refers to his Ukrainian upbringing and the influence of Ukrainian folklore and traditions on his works. For instance, in letters to friends and family, he often reminisced about Ukrainian customs and landscapes, which deeply colored his early works such as "Evenings on a Farm Near Dikanka" [oai_citation:3,Nikolai Gogol — Harvard University Press](https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674022911). However, his choice to write in Russian and his desire to achieve literary fame in St. Petersburg reflect his strategic adaptation to the dominant Russian culture [oai_citation:4,Stolen identity: how Nikolai Gogol usurped Mykola Hohol](https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/culture/60477/stolen-identity-how-nikolai-gogol-usurped-mykola-hohol).

3. **National Identity and Literary Ambitions**: Gogol's letters also reveal his internal conflict regarding his national identity. While he embraced his role as a Russian writer, he did not completely discard his Ukrainian identity. Scholars like Edyta M. Bojanowska in her book "Nikolai Gogol: Between Ukrainian and Russian Nationalism" argue that his works and letters illustrate a blend of Ukrainian and Russian influences, challenging the simplistic categorization of his identity [oai_citation:5,Nikolai Gogol: Performing Hybrid Identity 92.40.213.67 (talk) 19:22, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 20:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)