Talk:Nothing Has Been Proved

Please Please Me's number one
One editor keeps insisting on reducing the statement
 * The song also includes the line "Please Please Me's number one", a reference to The Beatles' UK single released in January 1963, which reached No. 1 on the New Musical Express (the most recognised chart at the time) on 22 February.

to
 * The song also includes the line "Please Please Me's number one", a reference to The Beatles' UK single released in January 1963 (which actually peaked at number two).

...first giving the reason "NME chart might have been widely 'recognised', but it was never the official chart" and then saying the longer statement is "inaccurate". I dispute these reasons. Firstly, whether the NME chart is or was "official" is irrelevant, there wasn't an accepted official industry chart in 1963 anyway. As for "inaccurate", that doesn't stand up at all. None of that first statement is inaccurate, and neither is the actual lyric to which it refers. Bear in mind that "Nothing Has Been Proved" is set in 1963, and written by Neil Tennant who (1) is a chart geek, (2) is a history geek, and (3) quite clearly did his reading, including researching what was at number one in the most commonly-recognised chart of the time, rather than relying on the list in British Hit Singles. There is a very good reason why the song says "Please Please Me's number one", and the first statement as mentioned above explains that reason succinctly, thereby increasing the reader's understanding of the subject. In contrast, the second statement does not increase the reader's understanding, on the contrary it gives a misleading notion both of the status of the Record Retailer and NME charts, and of the songwriting process, implying that Tennant either failed to check his facts, or chose to ignore them for the sake of a rhyme, neither of which is the case. I would also point out that by flatly denying that Please Please Me was number one, you would contradict Wikipedia's own article on Please Please Me (song), where the single's positions in Record Retailer, Melody Maker and NME are all noted, concisely and in an admirably NPOV manner. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I have edited again to include your NME chart reference, but stil recognising that "Please Please Me" is NOT a recognised UK number one. You talk about "relying" on the Guiness Book of Hit Singles as if this is some fanboy pamphlet, rather than the most widely recognised official source of information for the UK charts. You also seem to think I have some bizarre grudge against Neil Tennant and his songwriting. Of course I don't - I'm simply striving for accuracy (which for some reason you seem to think is irrelevant). And as for your comment that the line is the result of Tennant's "research", I'd suggest a far simpler expalnation - the line "Please Please Me's number one" fits the beat of the song. Had "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" been number one, he would've written a different line.

Please don't start an edit war by reverting my changes again. Removing accurate information and replacing it with your own opinion (where is your source for the statement that the NME chart was "the most widely recognised"?) is never a good idea. Smurfmeister (talk) 16:05, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Also, you refer me to the Wikipedia page for "Please Please Me" and suggest I am contradicting it (as if Wikipedia pages are somehow immune from inaccuracy). Said page states that the song isn't included on "1s", the compilation album featuring all The Beatles' UK number ones. If even the surviving members of the band and their representatives don't consider it a UK number one, why should Wikipedia? Smurfmeister (talk) 16:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the Guinness Book of British Hit Singles is, or was (RIP) the most widely recognised official source of information for the UK charts, but even so it had its limitations. The chart published in Record Retailer / Music Week from February 1969 onward is the first real "official" chart, supported by the BBC, record distributors and retailers, and widely recognised by both trade and public. However, the GRRR team's decision to go with continuity of publisher leaves us with the awkward situation of appearing to retrospectively confer "official" status on the previous, unofficial Record Retailer chart, which in 1963 was frankly a tinpot operation published in a trade journal which wanted a chart because everyone else had one, and did it on the cheap, its results being unknown to the general public and of limited interest even to its subscribers, who after all had access to the widely-recognised NME and Melody Maker charts anyway. I will concede that I am not entirely sure about the NME being "the most widely recognised" chart of the time as the BBC Pick Of The Pops chart probably had a wider reach, even if the the NME was more trusted (it wasn't actually my line, though I don't suppose the IP that added it will return to defend it), however the Record Retailer chart of 1963 certainly wasn't the most recognised chart - it was barely recognised at all. Yes, it did later get carried in Record Mirror as well and got a bit of money invested in it, but to even call it a competitor to the NME and MM charts in 1963 would be overstating its significance. The notion that "Please Please Me" wasn't number one, only came about retrospectively in 1977 when the first BHS book was published, and even then the editors admitted that this was a flaw in the choice of chart (though obviously they felt it was outweighed by the advantage of choosing a chart with a consistent 50 positions as far back as possible).

I'm not suggesting that you have some grudge against Neil Tennant, but I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that his research may have been a tad more thorough than yours. As for Please Please Me's omission from "1", I don't know, but I would note that the methology used for that collection conveniently resulted in a CD that maxed out its capacity while bypassing any criticism about track choice (like "Come on guys, a Beatles hits collection without "Strawberry Fields Forever"? Seriously?"), so I suspect the bottom line was that they had a readymade excuse for not including Please Please Me, and they adopted it. What else were they going to do?

Getting back to the point, your edit is still basically saying that the lyric is wrong, which it isn't. Please Please Me "actually peaked at number two" only in a chart that was every bit as "unofficial" as NME, and meant far less. It also "actually peaked at" number one in every chart of any significance at the time. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 00:00, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


 * I think you're over-complicating the '1s' issue. It was a themed compilation - all 17 of The Beatles' UK number ones. Check any source going and you'll see The Beatles have 17 UK number ones - to suggest this was somehow deliberately manipulated because of CD capacity is absurd.

You have to accept that you are never going to be able to prove whether NME, Record Retailer or Pick of the Pops was the most recognised. What CAN be proven is that the Record Retailer chart is now considered the official chart and its data used in all official stats. The edit I made yesterday reflects both this and your point about the NME chart - it's the most sensible compromise. Smurfmeister (talk) 10:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


 * As it turns out, it's actually pretty easy to find citations that say (1) that NME was the most accepted chart of the era (I was actually quite surprised at the broad consensus on this), and (2) that Record Retailer definitely wasn't (in fact, nobody seems to bring up the Record Retailer chart except to point this out). However, rather than lead the article into a digression on 1960s charts, I think the better option might be to change the sentence to something along the lines of The song also makes reference to the The Beatles' "Please Please Me", their current hit at the time of Profumo's resignation. I believe "Please Please Me" itself is also heard in the film (it's not on the soundtrack, but it's the Beatles, so you wouldn't expect it to be), though I'd have to check that before adding it. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Also, I've just realised why the line appears twice in the song, considering that the events mentioned take place over several months - the first time it appears, it's tied to Profumo's resignation and refers to the single; the second time, it's tied to Stephen Ward's suicide and refers to the album. --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 09:09, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Having not received any objection, I was going to change the line to The song also makes reference to the The Beatles' "Please Please Me", their current hit at the time of Profumo's resignation, and also heard in the film. and also mention some of the other references to real people in the song. However, in checking out the references, I realised that I'd misread the chronology of the Profumo affair and taken the resignation to have been in March, when in fact it was in June, by which time "Please Please Me" (the single) was long gone from the charts anyway. While the LP, an important pop culture touchstone in its own right, was settling in to a spectacular domination of the album charts (it was still undisputedly number one at the time of Ward's suicide, and for a long time after). So it's probable that both references are actually to the album after all! --Walnuts go kapow (talk) 09:14, 23 February 2015 (UTC)