Talk:Nursery rhyme

Nursery Rhymes and Education I have been making edits to the nursery rhyme and education section for the past month. I believe more information should be added.

"Post-Mother Goose" nursery rymes
I wish somebody (not me, I don't know enough) would write something on "Post Mother Goose" nursery rymes. For example: Lizzie Borden. Or even "On top of spaghetti, all covered with cheese. . . ." or "Miss Suzie had a baby, she called him Tiny Tim." Kids haven't stopped inventing these things, you know. -- John McAdams

What makes you think children invent nursery rhymes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.41 (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Nursery rhymes are actually old French poems
Ummm... So as it turns out nursery Rhymes are actually old French poems (after Battle of Hastings, 1066) that English peasants heard, thought that they were hearing English words. For example, Peas Porridge Hot/Cold is actually a poem about Pisa, Italy.

Pise, pas riche, hate. Pise, pas riche, colle. Pise, pas riche, y appate. Naine desole.

Check out a book called "N'heure souris rames." It is eye-opening.


 * I don't think so. It's far too coincidental to be probable, having so many poems en français that make sense in English as well. Not only that, but anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of French can translate these. What comes out is complete nonsense. The poem above, directly translated:


 * Pisa, not rich, haste. ['hate' should have been 'hâte']
 * Pisa, not rich, glue.
 * Pisa, not rich, there lures. [the verb 'appâter' is 'to lure', though I believe it was incorrectly conjugated]
 * Dwarf sorry. ['naine' isn't pronounced 'nine'. It should be pronounced more like 'nen' or 'nan' (French phonetics are difficult to explain)]


 * And here, my translation of the 'original' Georgie Porgie, supplied by the French article on N'heures Souris Rames:


 * Georgie Port-'state controlled company' [had to look that up], not very worthy of straw,
 * Which dégeule [I couldn't find a translation for that] without but. Lady craille [couldn't translate that either].
 * Where hatred of buoys that love to crush all:
 * Georgie Port-'state controlled company' reigns. Hey!


 * It's quite ridiculous, really. The author probably just picked up some basic French and spent a night with drinking buddies finding out which French phrases sounded like English. It's probably why the book is now out of print, but I'm just speculating. I'm sorry, but I don't think the 'hatred of buoys' is encyclopedic enough for a Wikipedia article. --Marshmello 23:30, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought most nursery rhymes, as an oral tradition, were peasants passing/reciting gossip about aristocrats and politics. 71.162.141.213 21:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Category + list?
Category:Nursery_Rhymes provides a pretty good list of nursery rhymes. If there are no objections, I'm considering removing the list from this page (it's getting quite long) and linking to the category page. I'll do it in a week unless there's objection. --Abqwildcat 23:51, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I propose a new article be made (maybe in place of the category?), as many of the listed rhymes do not have articles, and therefore are not listed in the category. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Marshmello (talk • contribs) 21:38, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

And just when is a Wikipedia entry "done"? :-)


 * It never is, it's just annoying to be fighting at the same time, particularly when I was trying to get rid of innacurate stuff and replace with accurate info. And sorry Cunctator - if I'd checked and seen it was you I wouldn't have been so self-righteous. -MB

Umm, Cunctator didn't write that. -Someone who isn't Cunctator. :-)

(And, wow, I sure agree that that's annoying. But what can we do about it?)

I heard that Beethoven loved 'twinkle twinkle little star' in his childhood. How old is that song anyway? Can anyone confirm that?

It was written around 1765 by Mozart as a child. "Ah vous je dirais Mamon" was the orignal name (or something similar) The english lyrics are officially "anonymous" according to ASCAP - I just checked it out- MB

... - my resources said that the eagle doesn't exist, its an urban myth... what are your sources? Mind you, I've got the street address and I'm flying to London tomorrow, so I'll check it out. :)- MB

FWIW, when I was a kid back in the 60s, there was a record by Anthony Newley regularly played on a UK childrens radio programme, where this exact Eagle pub/pawnshop theory was expounded.... and that's the only place I've ever heard that explanation (I heard the record hundreds of times back then)

Yeah - I checked dozens of places on the web yesterday and none of them could confirm this story - hence my doubts. Axel - what are your sources?- MB

OK - my apologies for misinterpreting your tone. I'm glad you're understanding about my desire to be thorough. Cheers - MB

OED says this:
 * pop goes the weasel, name of a country dance very popular in the eighteen-fifties, in which these words were sung or exclaimed by the dancers while one of them darted under the arms of the others to his partner; also the name of the tune; hence as a vb. and in other humorous uses. See N. & Q. (1905) 10th Ser. III. 492, IV. 209.
 * c1854 (Music-seller's Advt. in Newspaper), The new country dance &lsquo;Pop goes the weasel&rsquo;, introduced by her Majesty Queen Victoria. Musical Bouquet No. 409, Pop goes the Weasel; La Tempête; and Le Grand Père. These fashionable dances as performed at the Court balls. 1855 in N. & Q. 10th Ser. IV. 211/1 This dance is very popular, it is without deception, &lsquo;Pop goes the weasel&rsquo; has been to Court, and met a good reception. 1855 SMEDLEY H. Coverdale xxxiv, Dear old Punch, with his private band pop-going-the-weasel like an harmonious steam-engine.


 * The list has been moved to a new page now. Wiki-uk 16:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Star light, star bright
In the episode "The Conscience of the King" from Star Trek: The Original Series Lenore says "Star light, star bright. Wish I may, I wish I might. Do you remember that captain?" I googled a bit and found this an old nursery rhyme:
 * Star light star bright,
 * The first star I see tonight,
 * I wish I may, I wish I might,
 * Have the wish I wish tonight.

Does someone know more about the origin and history of this nursery rhyme, so that it may be entered into Wikipedia? The reason I ask is I want to add this reference to Star Trek cultural references and would like to be able to link to a page with some more detailed information on the nursery rhyme. For now I will link to the page linked above.
 * It's used in the Disney animation of Pinnochio. Anyone know of a source earlier than that? 71.162.141.213 21:52, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

wikifification
I think this could become far more interesting, and break up the list, if we created categories of nursery rhyme, to point out common features. For example counting-based nursery rhymes, play-based nursery rhymes. We could then point out things like, the two main types of counting nursery rhyme (one where you count up or down each verse, and one with a full count in a short space. compare five little speckled frogs with One, Two, Three, Four, Five.) Or is that too much like original research? The current article doesn't seem to touch much on what nursery rhymes 'are' or what they are 'for'.

Forbidden in certain cultures?
Does someone have a reference for the claim in the article that in certain cultures it is forbidden for women and children to sing songs, and hence they lack these?--cjllw | TALK  03:06, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. This could almost be called 'racist' as it tars all indigenous cultures with the charge of inhibiting free song a) this should be referenced, b) actually it has no real relevence to nursery rhymes and should be deleted. Let me know if anyone objects. ChristineD 22:37, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes little or no sense. The "racism" charge is - as usual - cant, and differences in cultural prevalence of any given phenomenon (if they can be adequately demonstrated) are of legitimate anthropological interest. 62.196.17.197 (talk) 09:16, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

odd lone paragraph
"An amusing and ironic accidental hoax involving the rhyme 'Sing a Song of Sixpence' was perpetrated on the Urban Legends Reference Pages." Well... what was it, then? 87.112.73.217 05:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Look here for the answer. ChardingLLNL 16:30, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

The "Name Game"? Come on, that's absurd!
What is a 20th century commercial recording doing being listed as a nursery rhyme? I know the record was popular - it turns up on the radio on a regular basis, but it is hardly a nursery rhyme. And BTW, I always told everyone whenever this song would come on the radio that I felt neglected because you couldn't use my nickname in the song (my nickname being Chuck) ChardingLLNL 01:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, according to The Name Game, Ellis who wrote it said that she based it on a rhyme she knew as a child. But perharps that's not enough to include it here.--Niels Ø 16:55, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Nursery rhymes in other languages
It seems this page is mainly about English nursery rhymes. For example when I search in Google for Hindi Nursery Rhymes, I see many results. Can this article become more balanced? How? Wiki-uk 18:38, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Bill Bryson's excellent example
"...(see Bill Bryson's book Made in America: An Informal History of the English Language in the United States for an excellent example)." It seems to me that one would either wish to quote the example (whatever it is) or not refer to it at all. Why not quote it? Is it so extensive as to raise copyright issues? Nat 14:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Nursery Rhymes are Nursery Non-Rhymes in Modern English.
If the Modern English version of the rhymes were recited, obviously some of the words would NOT rhyme, for example (water/after). I think the rhymes were originally in Middle English. Please reply.--Luke Elms 23:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suspect that some rhymes have been altered slightly over time as the language shifted.--e.

"PC"
The section on the PC-ification of nursery rhymes obviously needs help. I think the obvious counter-argument is that most parents don't think that a bunch of five year olds are going to deal with or work out issues related to racism simply by being encouraged to say 'nigger' during counting games--or that saying 'tiger' instead will somehow make kids less able to deal with racial issues. As the paragraph stands, it sounds like it was written by someone with an agenda. --e.

No kidding-- IMO, it would be sufficient to add a sentence like, "Many nursery rhymes have been altered as societal standards have shifted," to one of the other sections. This idea doesn't need its own section-- if it's being given one, it needs major revision. H
 * I second that suggestion. If such a section should exist, then it needs to present arguments on both sides and have citations to show who's opinion it is.  As it standands, the section just spouts a bunch of conjecture, which clearly isn't NPOV.  I think the best solution for now is to simply incorporate a sentence somewhere else in the article to mention the revisions to the rhymes.Nimrand 14:39, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Besides the dubious nature of the content, the grammar of the last sentence renders it virtually unreadable. I would edit it myself, but I'm not exactly sure what the original intent was. I'm also new to the whole editing idea, so I would prefer to leave that up to someone more experienced. --Rmp1978 (talk) 15:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete claims about incorrect meaning
The nursery rhyme "Ring a Ring o' Roses", also known as "Ring Around The Rosie", is mistakenly referred to as a metaphorical reference to the Great Plague of London. This has no source and no qualification given. It is a popular belief and cannot simply be dismissed as mistaken.--JimiQ (talk) 19:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

My suggestions
I would like to see this entry revised, by those who are prepared to put in the huge amount of work this would take. There is merit in this entry, but I think this entry is too narrow in its focus. The nursery rhyme is a literary genre of its own. I suggest looking at the research of Iona and Peter Opie as a seminal place to start. I am so pleased that people have taken the time and effort to make this contribution. I am always willing to support those who make the effort to contribute, in my own small way. I think this entry is very important and I appreciate it. Proxxt (talk) 13:29, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes! The Lore and Language of School Children is an excellent survey of nursery rhymes from British schoolyards and provides a great wealth of information both regarding the transmission of this type of folklore and about the research attempts in finding the origins of such rhymes.  This topic has had much more research than this page suggests.  140.147.236.194 (talk) 20:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Merger?
I was undertaking some work on Children's songs and ran across this page. There is clearly a lot of cross-over between the two pages and some solution needs to be undertaken. I suggest either, a, move the contents of this page over to Children's songs (because it is a larger category) and put it in a sub-section, making this a redirect or b, any modern material is moved from here to there and the detail on nursery rhymes from there comes here and a link and summary is placed on that page. Preferences and reasons welcome.--Sabrebd (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Merger was avoided and this article partially cleared up to fit in with children's songs. However, the article could be longer and the exegisis and revisionism sections need sources, or they may have to be removed, since at the moment their contain unsubstantiated claims.--Sabrebd (talk) 15:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Ring a ring of roses - good to see accurate history
Let us be thankful that the entry for Ring a ring of roses points out that, contrary to a popular misconception,there is no evidence that this has anything to do with the Plague. In fact, according to the book on nursery rhymes edited by Iona and Peter Opie, this was not known before 1881. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:08, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Nursery Rhyme japanese hentai videogame
I miss the information of the homonym japanese hentai videogame named Nursery Rhyme. I Know that it´s out of topic, cause of that, if someone could crate a new article about it I´ll be gratefull. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.32.6 (talk) 19:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Too narrow
I think the scope should be breoader reflecting the wideness of nursery rhyme use in many cultures and languages. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 05:13, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Speaking
see nursery rymes are cool to teach but not good tospeak ha ha ha — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ginagomes (talk • contribs) 09:48, 13 August 2011

Lucy Locket
The meaning list left out "Lucy Locket lost her pocket, Kitty Fisher found it..." -- is the fact Kitty Fisher was a courtesan part of the reason for the omission? I thought this one was rather common knowlege. Curious. 71.229.150.7 (talk) 04:10, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The list is not a comprehensive list of nursery rhyme origins, but some of the more common "hidden" meanings. That one is is not really hidden, as it is, as you say, common knowledge.--''' SabreBD  (talk ) 07:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Nursery rhyme revisionism examples
This section needs examples. The only example currently is a nonexample, "Baa Baa Black Sheep". Hyacinth (talk) 09:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Sexual inuendo
I have often hear it suggested that many nursery rhymes are lascivious but that the content is disguised in order to go over the heads of children. However, I have seldom encountered hard (ahem!) evidence for this. How much exists? Take for example Higgledy piggledy my black hen (my black, hairy pudenda, cf. the male equivalent "cock") she lays eggs for gentlemen (gentlemen lay their eggs (testicles in the scrotum)upon my pubic hairs) Gentlemen do come each day (they ejaculate) to see how my black hen doth lay (when excited by the prospect of and taking advantage of my exposed pudenda) Captainbeefart (talk) 14:54, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

" Early Nursery Rhymes"
Added a fact to the section. The earliest nursery rhymes were oginated in the 13th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NGUYENER05 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I adjusted it to fit Wikipedia formats and to give the pertinent fact.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 19:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

NGUYENER05 (talk) 19:23, 4 October 2013 (UTC)== Nursery Rhymes and Education ==

i believe the section needs some more information relating the two Nursery Rhymes and Education.I will be adding some information to the section that may be relevent.

Nursery Rhymes and Education
I believe the section is in need of more information about the section. There is very little information. I believe that there is alot more to be said of the two. I will be add to the section stating how the nursery rhymes and education go together in one hand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NGUYENER05 (talk • contribs) 19:27, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

The Apple Tree

"When Tommy went walking one fine summer´s day,

Some cherry-cheeked apples he saw on his way.

Those apples looked down from the top of the tree,

They seemed to say, 'Tommy, come climb up for me.'

So Tommy climbed up to the top of the tree,

To gather those apples so pleasant to see.

The bough it did break and poor Tommy did fall,

So down fell poor Tommy and apples and all.

Then Tommy got up very bruised and sore,

And promised that he would steal apples no more."

(Doownire (talk) 02:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC))

Another one, with a hidden meaning?
"I had a little nut-tree, Nothing would it bear. But a little nutmeg, And a golden pear.

The King of Spain's daughter, Came to visit me. And all was because Of my little nut tree."

Could this be about the Spanish exploration/conquest of the West Indies? The "daughter" being Queen Isobella? The "nutmeg" being spices, and the "gold" being ... well, gold? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.217.244.129 (talk) 08:26, 21 June 2016 (UTC)


 * It could be, but we cannot produce original interpretation. We need reliable sources that indicate this.--  SabreBD  (talk ) 13:33, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

"Comptine" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Comptine. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed,Rosguill talk 23:32, 17 October 2019 (UTC)