Talk:Oberon Zell-Ravenheart

Copyvio
It looks like text of this is a copyright violation from http://www.caw.org/clergy/oberon/ (i.e. its a direct cut and past of the text). For the article to survive in wikipedia it will need to be rewritten in our own words.
 * I re-wrote it; the text as it originally appeared here was written by Oberon about himself in the third person for the CAW website.


 * Davidkevin 07:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm also not sure about the statement one of the founders of deep ecology movement. We would need third part sources for this. --Salix alba (talk) 22:40, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Starwood Festival
Please cease inserting the Starwood Festival into the body of the article. Ven. Zell-Ravenheart's connection to it is simply as a guest speaker and attendee, not as an organizer, and it is not relevant to the article beyond the list of festivals at which he has spoken which appears at the bottom of the article. Thank you. Davidkevin 19:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Davidkevin, do you think it's appropriate to list the events, or isn't it more listcruft than than encyclopedic? I think it's listcruft.  He's been appearing at events for over thirty years.  Who decides which appearances are important enough to be included?  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * There must be SOME way to decide what items are "important enough" to be on a list, and IMO lectures and workshops presented at SOME venues must be notable; he spends a significant amount of his career travelling around the world doing them on a professional basis. I see no reason to assume that a radio appearance is necessarily more important than several appearances at a major event, for instance; he's been doing them for 30 years as well. How about this: a public appearance list can consist of events notable enough to have their own Wikipedia articles. Is that not reasonable? What else is needed: 3rd party citations? A clear connection to the subject's field of expertise? Repeat appearances? What? Rosencomet 18:58, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Proper form of name(s)?
In this and the Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart article, sometimes the last two name are hyphenated, other times not. Which is it, officially? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:29, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, I took a look at the Mythic Images website, and he's using the hyphen. So, once I do the cleanup on this I'm going to move the page (assuming there are not objections :-)). ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Page moved. I decided to do it via cut and paste rather than the move function, so as to avoid even temporary problems with the redirects. Adjust your bookmarks and return tray tables to upright positions.  I'll also do link repair on other articles.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 04:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
The subject of this article has contributed a great deal to the Pagan community, among other cultural areas. Yet the article reads like a farily brief promo/bio blurb followed by listcruft. I'm going to be bold here and start the cleanup. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Fairly major rewrite done, plus sourcing and NPOV-ing. Largely sourced from Adler, though could also source from back issues of GE if needed.  ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 04:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Where can the original text of this (or these) articles be viewed? It seems to me that some information is missing, and I'd like to review the text. (For instance, where is the "Living Unicorn" material?) This seems rather drastic without all editors being able to see the extent of your "fairly major rewrite". Rosencomet 19:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Page history for Oberon Zell Ravenheart ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 20:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

After extensive cleanup by myself and other editors, I removed the Weasel and POV tags. If you notice places in the article that you feel need more work, please hang a tag on that specific location or leave a note here. Folklore1 (talk) 14:49, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Grey School of Wizardry
I have created a section on the Grey School of Wizardry here, where it certainly is apprpriate as the main occupation (besides writing books) of Oberon Zell-Ravenheart since 2003. I think it merits an article itself, just like Witch School has, but until one can be written that satisfies the editors who have deleted the last two attempts I have simply created a redirect page to this article. Rosencomet (talk) 17:58, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please remove the redirect so that an actual article may be written. -- Davidkevin (talk) 19:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I tagged this article for easel words, mainly due to this section. It should be rewritten with less of an endorsing tone. - ANON

"Featured, quoted, interviewed, or otherwise referenced:" The monster unbound
I've completely removed the following section from the article as one of the most bloated monsters of a section I've ever seen. If there is substantial material on or about Zell-Ravenheart in any of these books, perhaps they might be added back in. However the burden is on the person who puts them back in the article to show that they have meaningful and significant content related to the subject of this article. Pigman ☿ 05:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I would question whether the Hans Holzer book should be included on the list at all. While it does mention Oberon by name (as Tim Zell, as he was still using his birth name at that time) that chapter in the book is a hit-piece, bordering on libel.  I knew and know Oberon personally, both then and now, and I can personally certify that the chapter is extraordinarily slanted to make him look like some sort of psychotic, Manson-esqe cult-leader.  Holzer was angry at being called out in Green Egg and other places for the inaccuracies in and sloppiness of his earlier Paganism books and, frankly, took a petty revenge out on Oberon.  -- Davidkevin (talk) 20:09, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Oberon Zell-Ravenheart contributed to or is featured, quoted, interviewed, or otherwise referenced in the following books:


 * The New Pagans by Hans Holzer (Doubleday & Co., 1972)
 * Witchcraft, The Old Religion by Leo Louis Martello (University Books, 1973)
 * Religious & Spiritual Groups in Modern America by Roger Ellwood (Prentiss-Hall, 1974; Prentiss-Hall, 2nd edition 1998)
 * Occultism, Witchcraft & Cultural Fashions by Mircea Eliade (University of Chicago Press, 1976)
 * Drawing Down the Moon: Witches, Druids, Goddess-Worshippers, and Other Pagans in America Today by Margot Adler (Beacon Press, 1979; revised and expanded 2nd edition Viking, 1987; revised and expanded 3rd edition Penguin Books, 2006)
 * The Encyclopedia of American Religions by J. Gordon Melton (Gale Research Co., 1979; 2nd edition Triumph Books, 1991)
 * Encyclopedia of Witches & Witchcraft by Rosemary Guiley (Facts on File, 1989; 2nd edition 1999)
 * Heaven on Earth: Dispatches from America’s Spiritual Frontier by Michael D’Antonio (Crown Publs, 1992)
 * The '60s Spiritual Awakening: American Religion Moving from Modern to Postmodern by Robert S. Ellwood (Rutgers Press, 1994)
 * The Pagan Path: The Wiccan Way of Life by Janet Farrar, Stewart Farrar & Gavin Bone (Phoenix Publishing, Inc., 1995)
 * Paganism Today by Graham Harvey & Charlotte Hardman (eds) (Thorsons Press, 1995)
 * America's Alternative Religions by Timothy Miller, ed. (State University of New York Press, 1995)
 * People of the Earth: The New Pagans Speak Out by Ellen Evert Hopman & Lawrence Bond (Inner Traditions/Destiny Books, 1996)
 * Magical Religion & Modern Witchcraft James R. Lewis, ed. (State University of New York, 1996)
 * To Ride a Silver Broomstick: New Generation Witchcraft by Silver Ravenwolf (Llewellyn Worldwide Ltd., 1997)
 * Contemporary Paganism: Listening People, Speaking Earth by Graham Harvey (NY Univ. Press, 1997)
 * The Encyclopedia of Cults, Sects, and New Religions by James R. Lewis (Promethean Press, 1998)
 * Goddess Worship, Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism by Craig Hawkins (Zondervan Publishing, 1998)
 * Peculiar Prophets: A Biographical Dictionary of New Religions by James R. Lewis (Paragon House, 1999)
 * Religious Leaders of America by J. Gordon Melton (The Gale Group, 1999)
 * Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft by Ronald Hutton (Oxford University Press, 2000)
 * Encyclopedia of Witchcraft by Raven Grimassi (Llewellyn, 2000)
 * Practicing the Presence of the Goddess: Everyday Rituals to Transform Your World by Barbara Ardinger (New World Library, 2000)
 * Odd Gods: New Religions & the Cult Controversy ed. by James R. Lewis (Prometheus Books, 2001)
 * The New Believers: A Survey of Sects, Cults and Alternative Religions by David V. Barrett (Cassell Academic, 2001)
 * Being a Pagan: Druids, Wiccans, and Witches Today by Ellen Evert Hopman (Inner Traditions/Destiny Books, 2001)
 * Modern Pagans by John Sulak (ReSearch Books, 2001)
 * Neo-Pagan Sacred Art & Altars: Making Things Whole by Sabina Magliocco (University Press of MI, 2001)
 * The World of Wizards by Anton & Mina Adams (Lansdowne Publishing/Barnes & Noble, 2002)
 * The Practical Pagan: Common Sense Guidelines for Modern Practitioners by Dana Eilers (New Page Books, 2002)
 * The American Legal System & Nontraditional Religions: The Case of Contemporary Paganism by Carol Barner-Barry (2003)
 * Nelson College Prep Biology 11 by Giuseppe Fraser, LeDrew & Roberts (Nelson Thompson Learning Publishing, 2003)
 * Shadows of a Witch by Shewolf Silver Shadows (WitchesWayPublishing.com, 2003)
 * New Age & Neopagan Religions in America by Sarah Pike (Columbia University Press, 2004)
 * Pop! Goes the Witch by Fiona Horne, ed. (The Disinformation Co., 2004)
 * Gaia Eros by Jesse Wolf Hardin (New Page Books, 2004)
 * Celebrating the Pagan Soul Laura Wildman, ed. (Citadel Press, 2005)
 * Encyclopedia of Religion & Nature by Bron Taylor (Thoemmes Continuum, 2005)
 * Religion & Popular Culture: A Hyper-Real Testament (Gods, Humans, & Religions, No. 7) by Adam Posasamai (Peter Lang, 2005)
 * The Pagan Man by Isaac Bonewits (Kensington Citadel Press, 2005)
 * Introduction to Pagan Studies by Barbara Jane Davy (Altamira Press, 2005)
 * Odyssey: Wisdom’s Children by Anita L. Wynn (aka WolfWoman) (PublishAmerica, 2006)
 * Nature Religion Reader in Paganism & Ecology by Barbara Jane Davy, ed. (AltaMira Press, 2006)
 * Her Hidden Children: The Rise of Wicca & Paganism in America by Chas S. Clifton (Altamira Press, 2006)
 * Dragonlore: From the Archives of the Grey School of Wizardry by Ash DeKirk (New Page 2006) (contributor)
 * Gargoyles: From the Archives of the Grey School of Wizardry by Susan Pesznecker (New Page 2007) (contributor)
 * Composing Magic by Elizabeth Barrette (New Page, 2007)

Art Theft?
I've come across this, I was wondering what to do next. http://www.obakemono.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=site;action=display;num=1213786196 Jack Cain (talk) 18:02, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please describe what you mean, as this page is not available to non-members of that forum. -- Davidkevin (talk) 09:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Workshop
I was at his workshop at the Saint Louis Pagan Picnic on June 13th, 2009. He stated a few things that I would lie to add to the article but not sure how to source them.
 * He prefers to use Gaea or Ge Greek roots for the naming of his thesis.
 * His ideas coalesced after reading The White Goddess.
 * He corresponds with Lovelock and still does to this day.
 * He believes in a 60 year renaissance cycle that corresponds to 1960 then 2020 and a spiritual awakening will occur amongst humans in 2020.

He gave me permission to take a photo of him from his website to place into this article but I'm not sure how to make this officially public release. I took a picture of him and some of his first members of his Church of All Worlds and I can upload it for use. Alatari (talk) 03:38, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Copyvio
The entire section on the so-called Grey school of Wizardry seems to be a copyvio, directly lifted from the organizations' own website. Vargher (talk) 02:05, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Grey School -- Separate Listing
I got a letter yesterday from Oberon via Facebook in which he said:
 * I recently went to Wikipedia to see what it said about the Grey School, and I noticed it's still listed within my own personal entry, rather than having an entry on its own. This isn't right -- there are separate entries for Church of All Worlds, WitchSchool, and other organizations and groups.  The Grey School should certainly have its own entry!


 * Having GSW listed only under my personal entry creates a number of problems -- not the least of which is that my entry contains personal information (such as CAW, Paganism, polyamory, my illnesses, etc.) that really shouldn't be associated with the School. For instance, if some kid hears about the School and wants to enroll, his mom is naturally going to Google it.  And what she will find is that it's listed in Wikipedia as just a subsection under this crazy guy....

I don't know why it was decided to fold the Grey School entry into Oberon's personal entry, but it's inappropriate. The redirect needs to be removed and the information moved from here to that page except to mention here that Oberon has written books for it and is on the faculty. -- Davidkevin (talk) 18:54, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I think a separate article would be appropriate for the Grey School. If I find the time in a few days, I hope to expand the Grey School section and turn it into an article. But don't wait for me if you're ready to do it now. I would also be willing to lend a hand later, editing or reviewing your new article. Folklore1 (talk) 11:59, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

I removed most of the section; it was totally promotional, much of it cut-and-pasted directly from GSW's web site. --jpgordon:==( o ) 16:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Added a K to magick
Is there anything that can be said about Zell's claim to having added K to magick in 2008? Really? Crowley did this in the 1930s and everyone knows it. MrFixItWitch (talk) 00:20, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * The claim is that he spelled it that way and when. It doesn't claim that he is responsible for everyone's use of it.  Alatari (talk) 11:12, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Reworded to remove apparent claim of credit. Thnidu (talk) 16:01, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

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Neopagan and Pagan in modern theological parlance
It seems fairly ubiquitous in those communities nowadays, but oddly enough isn't here in the Oberon Zell-Ravenheart Arty? Neopaganism itself is an old word in the academic sense. Apparently, Oberon, with his magazine Green Egg, was the first to establish it as a term describing the current religious/cultural movements and reconstructionist practices. This is already on neopaganism's arty. Is there a reason we haven't placed it on here? Luxnir (talk) 11:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Educator?
Zell-Ravenheart has an actual teaching credential and is the headmaster of a state-recognized non-profit educational institution, but we aren't adding educator here instead of "religious leader" for a religion that defines itself as having no hierarchical structure or religious authority?

Luxnir (talk) 11:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Magic Academy school of United States
Magic school of United States 119.93.173.202 (talk) 06:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)