Talk:Odette Hallowes

Untitled
Well, I didn't realise this was a "DIY" encyclopedia, but how about this for a "brain dump" or "all I know".


 * Well, it's more like a 'do-it-ourselves encyclopedia. I've had a go at rearranging the stuff you've added into the customary form. Others will add what they know, and the hope is that the end result will be "encyclopedic". Enjoy contributing. Will move to Odette Sansom, create redirect at Odette Churchill. -- Someone else 03:22 May 4, 2003 (UTC)

There seems to be some dispute about the spelling of her 1st married name (Samson vs Sansom): if anyone finds convincing evidence it was "Samson" it can simply be moved back, as there's only a redirect there. -- Someone else 03:34 May 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * On the "Women of SOE" site at her name is given as "Odette Hallowes / Sansom / Churchill". The George Cross database at  also gives it as Sansom. The search on that page often times out before it can complete but there's a complete list of recipients at  SteveCrook 01:33, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

The article here says Odette left her daughters with her husband. The book by Jerrard Tickell has her living alone (with her daughters) in Somerset before she joined SOE and says she left her children in a convent school. SteveCrook 01:33, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

Another thought... Is it worth another redirect from just "Odette". That's how I first looked her up and would direct anyone looking for the film here (until there's an article on the film when it could disambiguate) SteveCrook 01:33, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 07:38, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Jerrard Tickell
I have just read the book by Jerrard Tickell and there are a few differences between it and this article. How factually accurate would you say the book was? Ponty Pirate (talk) 22:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

The book by Jerrard Tickell is a non-fiction biography, and was written with the approval of Odette in 1949. However much of the book and subsequent film was said by Odette's contempories and other agents to have "glamourised" her life and situation - artistic licence I assume - to make it more palatable. I don't see anything wrong with this personally (if it can grap people's interest in the SOE women it can only be a good thing) but it is now difficult to divide the fact from the fiction. --KizzyB (talk) 10:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Are there any other books that I can read on Odette? The main difference seems to be where she left her children. The book says at a convent and this article says with their father! Ponty Pirate (talk) 12:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

There are a number of books which are about the Women Agents of the Special Operations Executive, but not specifically about Odette. I can highly recommend the "The Women Who Lived for Danger: The Agents of the Special Operations Executive" by Marcus Binney and if, the female SOE agents interest you further, there are a number on the subject which are largely out of print but seem available at most libraries: "A Quiet Courage: The story of SOE's women agents in France" by Liane Jones and "Mission Improbable: Salute to the Royal Air Force Women of Special Operations Executive in Wartime France" by Beryl E. Escott. Also, if you watch Mastermind on BBC2 on 6 Feb 2009 you'll find me answering questions on them as my specialist subject! --KizzyB (talk) 20:29, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for those recommendations. I will put the 6th of Feb on my calendar. Hope you do well. Ponty Pirate (talk) 13:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

George Cross
Nancy Wake was also awarded the George Cross (while alive), so I removed the following:


 * "She remains the only woman to have received the George Cross whilst alive, all other female GC awards to date being posthumous." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tuntable (talk • contribs) 05:35, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Much as I respect Nancy and admire what she did, she was awarded the George Medal, that's a lower ranking award to the George Cross. The sentence you removed was correct -- SteveCrook (talk) 06:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

French vital records: who's Gaston Brailly?
According to her birth certificate, Odette Hallowes was born Odette Marie Léonie Céline BRAILLY, the daughter of Florentin Désiré Eugène BRAILLY (31) and Emma Rose Marie Yvonne QUENNEHEN (25). She married Roy Patrick Sansom on 27 October 1931.

According to the "Mémoire des Hommes" website, Florentin Désiré Hairien (?!) BRAILLY (born in 	 Ivry-sur-Seine on 26 February 1881) was killed in action at La Butte du Mesnil (Le Mesnil-lès-Hurlus, Marne, France) on 26 September 1918.

Lomkimarsh (talk) 07:24, 21 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Here is a transcription of the birth entry in the Amiens records: "576 Odette Marie Léonie Céline Brailly : L’an mil neuf cent douze le vingt-neuf avril à onze heures du matin pardevant Nous Joseph Edouard Louis Delasalle Chevalier de la Legion d’honneur Adjoint et délégué du Maire de la Ville d’Amiens faisant les fonctions d’Officier de l’Etat civil a comparu Florentin Désiré Eugène Brailly, trente-un ans Employé de Commerce, demeurant à Amiens rue des Corroyers, deux cent huit. Lequel nous a présenté un enfant du sexe féminin né en sa demeure la vielle à une heure du matin, de lui comparant et de Emma Rose Marie Yvonne Quennehen, vingt cinq ans, modiste, son épouse et auquel enfant ils déclaré donner les prénoms de Odette Marie Léonie Céline. Les dites présentation et déclaration faites en présence de Eugène Brailly cinquante-neuf ans, retraité les Postes demeurant à Amiens rue des Corroyers, deux cent vingt et de Florent Duvauchelle, cinquante-huit ans, sentier, demeurant même trente-deux. Et après lecture, le père et les témoins ont signé avec . . ." and written alongside that entry: "Mariée à Boulogne-sur-Mer (Pas-de-Calais) le vingt-sept octobre mil neuf cent trente et un Roy Patrick Sansom." GreyHead (talk) 09:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Note
First, we are told that she could not prove that she had been tortured. Then, we are told that she could. There is some doubt about this and always has been. — Preceding unsigned comment added by G6934 (talk • contribs) 09:51, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Other aspects of her story are hard to believe, as well. I want independent evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by G6934 (talk • contribs) 10:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The names of the eyewitnesses are not given. — Preceding unsigned comment added by G6934 (talk • contribs) 10:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure of your point in the above, but the fact that she was tortured is well-established. A new biography provides further details. Coretheapple (talk) 18:53, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Introduction
The page title is Odette Hallowes yet the introduction is Odette Sansom Hallowes which is inconsistent, and she was not known by that name. Generally, women are listed under their married name (unless best known by their maiden our stage name) and their maiden and any previous married names are listed within the document. In her case it is shown that she was also known as Odette Sansom and Odette Churchill, (and Internet searches of either of these names redirect to 'Odette Hallowes'.

The description Allied intelligence officer is perhaps misleading and she would be better described as a Special Operations Executive agent, which is both more accurate and is consistent with the articles on other SOEs agents.

Superlatives
The sentence: She was the first woman both to be awarded the George Cross (on 20 August 1946), and to be appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur. does not tell the whole story, which is: She was the first woman to be awarded the George Cross, the only woman to be both awarded the George Cross and appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur.

The statement and most decorated spy of any gender during World War II would seem to be incorrect on several counts. Ignoring campaign and service medals, and civilian medals awarded after the war, Nancy Wake received more medals for bravery, but at a lower level, the George Medal being lower than the George Cross. Nancy Wake would seem to be the most decorated female during World War II, but not the most highly decorated female. Forest Yeo-Thomas was more highly decorated than Odette, and Gunnar Sønsteby would seem to have been even more highly decorated. It would seem to be accurate to describe Odette as: the most highly decorated woman during World War II.

Proposed rewrite
The first two sentences would then read:

Odette Hallowes LdH (28 April 1912 – 13 March 1995), also known as Odette Sansom and Odette Churchill, was a Special Operations Executive agent during the Second World War.

She was the first woman to be awarded the George Cross, the only woman to be both awarded the George Cross and appointed a Chevalier de la Légion d'honneur, and the most highly decorated woman during World War II.

Comments? MrArmstrong2 (talk) 09:55, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

First woman to get the George Cross?
Looking at the List of George Cross recipients (and without looking very thoroughly) I found two women who got the George Cross before WW II. Thus, it seems that the statement that she was the first woman to receive the George Cross is wrong. Possibly she was the first woman to receive the George Cross for work during WW II. I'll make the appropriate change in the text.Smallchief (talk) 12:47, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

The George Cross was not created until 1940, so Odette was the first woman to receive it. Other women listed as recipients of the George Cross had received other awards such as the Albert Medal which were retrospectively converted to a George Cross. It can be argued that although these women eventually gained a George Cross, they did not receive one at the time of their award, and Odette was therefore the first woman to receive one.MrArmstrong2 (talk) 16:14, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Medal entitlement
Based on her group as displayed after her death, and in photos of her taken over the years wearing her medals, (e.g. one, two: (1965), three, four and five), the medal group worn by Odette Hallowes consists of: This is at odds with the medal ribbons Hallowes' wears on the portrait at the top of the article, which shows her with a Military division MBE, the France and Germany Star and no Defence Medal. That this portrait contains errors is suggested both by her post-war photos and by:
 * Her Civil Division MBE is confirmed by the London Gazette entry. As an officer in FANY, she may not have been eligible for the military division.
 * The France and Germany Star was "granted for operational service between 6 June 1944 and 8 May 1945". Being a prisoner of war did not count as 'operational service'. Although a prisoner, Samson was not held as a POW. This could have led to confusion as to whether her imprisonment counted as 'operational service', with an initial view that she qualified, rescinded later. Other SOE agents who received the France and Germany Star – like Violette Szabo – were only captured and imprisoned after 6 June 1944.
 * The ribbon bar for the 1939-45 Star is worn backwards, a clear error.

Does anyone have any further evidence of Hallowes' medal entitlement?

Hsq7278 (talk) 15:49, 18 July 2021 (UTC)

Ravensbruck? Ravensbrück?
Or perhaps it's Rävensbruck? 2A02:AA1:1605:BCCC:44FA:EEEE:9948:4951 (talk) 21:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)