Talk:Ojibwe

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Moskosol.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Inconsistent shifting between Sioux and Dakota
It is my understanding that the names Sioux and Dakota refer to the same peoples. Is this correct? And if so, it is confusing to use both terms without an explanation in the Ojibwa article. BlueCanoe 12/20/04

Yes and no, depending on which Sioux you're talking about. The Sioux are the Dakota, Lakota and Nakota. The Sioux that Ojibwe encountered in Wisconsin and parts of Minnesota were definitely Dakota. However, the Plains Ojibwe would have encountered the Nakota, Dakota after the Uprise, and possibly an occasional Lakota. Nakota is better known by their Ojibwe name — Assiniboine (Asiniibwaan) — or by their English Name — Stoney Sioux — which is a literal translation of their name in Ojibwe. CJLippert 09/22/05

Ojibwa are also sometimes called Chippewa. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.181.70.95 (talk) 19:05, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Grand Portage Band = Traverse Bay Band?
Are the Grand Portage Band and the Traverse Bay Band one and the same? david_curry6@yahoo.com

there is the grand traverse band of ottawa and chippewa indians as well as the little traverse bay band of odawa. both are in michigan. the grand portage band of chippewa reside on the north shore of lake superior in minnesota. mikinaak

The group of indians had at least some members that lived on reservations and changed traditional songs so that they matched western music. For example, Turkey in the Straw gets an interesting treatment. Sean Griffing

how does this relate to the ojibwe? mikinaak

Pardon me for the earlier, confusing message. I've heard a recording of Turkey in the Straw as modified by the Ojibwe. Quite good actually. Sean Griffing

Need for merge?
Shouldn't this be merged with Chippewa (tribe)? Toiyabe 21:34, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I think you've got a point. It looks like the text of Chippewa (tribe) should be merged with this article and the page made a redirect to Ojibwa. Sunray 22:01, 2005 May 16 (UTC)
 * Yup.  BanyanTree 22:36, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I've moved the text from the Chippewa (tribe) article over and put it under the heading "Chippewa." It can now be integrated into the Ojibwa article and then the redirect established. Sunray 02:55, 2005 May 17 (UTC)
 * The redirect is completed. The text that was moved still has to be edited and integrated into the article. Sunray 05:19, 2005 May 17 (UTC)

Ojibwe do not necessarily consider themselves to be part of Chippewa. Chippewa sold rights to Isle Royale to Federal government, Ojibwe still visit island/consider it theirs. Lots of contention when Chippewa sold island because it "wasn't theirs to sell." This source comes from tribe leaders in MN. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.222.17.165 (talk) 04:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Northwestern Ontario
Not "Ontario", but "Northwestern Ontario"; 1,000 miles away from Toronto (which, unfortunately, is the only city most Americans know of in Canada; not their fault). Why is there no mention of the various Ojibwe or Ojibwa settlements throughout Northwestern Ontario? I'm referring to the region of Ontario bordering Manitoba and Minnesota, so far away from Toronto that Torontonians don't even consider it part of their province (ask them if they'd take a job transfer up to "NOW" and they shudder in disgust).

Remote, fly-in-only Ojibwe settlements like Attawapiskat and Sandy Lake, as well as very 'urban' reserves like the Fort William First Nation, near Thunder Bay? Given the high level of urbanisation and cultural assimilation of Ojibwa/Chippewa in the US Upper Midwest --- such as in Minnesota or Wisconsin --- I would argue that the Ojibwe of Northwestern Ontario are the most "natural" Ojibwe, the ones who remain closest to their wilderness traditions. But that's just me, lol.

Anyway, just wondering why there is no mention in this Wiki article of the rich Ojibwe heritage of Northwestern Ontario (not to mention the evidence of "Paleo-Indian" civilisations all around the city of Thunder Bay, dating back over 9,000 years). Thank you.


 * Useful suggestion but a recommendation of sources for this info would be helpful to editors.Parkwells (talk) 15:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

third or first biggest?
the intro states that the Ojibwa are the largest group of Native Americans north of Mexico, but only the third largest in the US. Seems fishy to me. -lethe talk [ +] 14:58, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * It could be -- the population is divided between the U.S. and Canada, so if you take the population in both countries into consideration, it may be the largest in North America, but the portion in the U.S. might not be the largest within that country. Just speculation though --a atatement like that should have some sort of references to back it up. older ≠ wiser 15:26, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

No word for "goodbye"
This sentence is copied from the end of the "Culture" section:

>>An interesting example of the Ojibwe culture is that there is no word for "Goodbye".

It seems insubstantial added on a whim. From what I know about the Ojibwe language, the word for "hello," "Boozhoo," comes from the name of the "saviour" of the Ojibwe people, Waynaboozhoo, and this greeting, translated as "hello," represents the endless search for his reincarnation in the world. Perhaps something about this could be added to the final paragraph of the "Culture" section to make this sentence not seem so flimsy.
 * Well, there is a "see you later" greeting in Ojibwe, but there isn't a "farewell" greeting. In reality, there isn't a "Hello" greeting, either.  However, like "aloha" in the Hawai'ian language, both "boozhoo" and "aanii(n)" are used as both "hello" and "good bye" though their use as "hello" is much, much more common.  The term "aanii(n)" means "what" or "how"... in this case a shortening of the phrase " What is your Doodem (clan)?" so that the addresser would know how to treat the addressed (as family, friend, guest or enemy).  The origins of "boozhoo" is highly controversial.  Some say that it comes from the French "Bon jour" so "boozhoo" can be used as one would with "good day" in English, which can be both "hello" and "good bye."  However, there are just as many people claiming the "Wenabozho" origins for "boozhoo".  Unfortunately, inclusion of "boozhoo" example in the article will result in moving away from the NPOV Wikipedia upholds.  In my real life job, for official correspondences, I use terms such as "baanimaa" (later), "niin sa" (yours) or "miigwech" (thank you) as my closings.  CJLippert 18:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * In my real life job, for other official correspondences, I use additional terms such as "mii sa go i'iw" (that is all)... which often I just shorten to "i'iw" or "i'iw sa", depending on if I want an emphasis or not, "haaw" for strong assertion, or "gegapii sa" as something a bit more stronger than "baanimaa". So, there isn't really a "good bye" but there are plenty of other terms that can be used in its place. CJLippert 05:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The above examples cited are only partially correct. All of the words mentioned have more of a spiritual connection rather then a secular one, example baamaapii kgaa waabimin is closer to saying "i will see your spirit again". miigwiich would be closer to say "thats enough" in reference to recieving too many items (whether physical or other) Due to certain biases and conceptions many of the words spoken have been referred to using non-Native concepts in an attempt to relate the concepts back into another type of mentality, often this results in a dilution and/or misunderstanding of the true nature of meanings behind the language. --RedMan11 01:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Ojibwa has origin in Ice-Age Europe?
Genetical evidences seem to support the statement that the ojibwa people originates not from the northwest (ultimately Northern Asia) like other native american people, but rather from western Europe. See the following article http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/articles/010129/archive_006258_3.htm (last paragraph on the page). Jens Persson (130.242.128.85 16:33, 1 April 2006 (UTC))


 * ojibwa were one of the first founders of north america they were in tribes of atleast 200 people. In each tribe there were the kids, parents, grand parents and cusins aunts and uncles. 70.51.52.12 16:04, 8 April 2006


 * I would be suspect of the article. Granted in the Ojibwe oral history, the Anishinaabeg claim they have always been on this continent (which I think is the point 70.51.52.12 was trying to make), both linguistics and their oral history claims their origins being from the Eastern Algonquian people, and ultimately the Delaware Nation.  If the Ojibwe had this genetic marker, I would expect so would all other Anishinaabeg as well as with all of the Eastern Algonquians and with the Delaware Nation. CJLippert 18:20, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Those findings have been in more than just one study; it's called the "X" (mtDNA) haplotype. And no, it doesn't mean that they are all "descended from Europe", and not one of those scientists said that; you're jumping to easy conclusions. It just means hypothetically some Eurasian ancestor somewhere around 50-20,000 years ago (hypothetically) had descendants that ended up both in Europe and N. America. And about the east coast ancestors thing: the Ojibwa could have been largely migrated from the east coast, and later after arriving around their present situation, intermarried with just one person with the X haplotype. There. Spettro9 (talk) 14:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Religion reference
My experience with this band is that most would identify as either Roman Catholic or Methodist, not consistent with the articles reference for ancient beliefs, medicine wheels etc. Not sure if my anecdotal reference is correct, but can someone show some documentation either way? 66.72.215.225 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I was taking a look at the article today and there do seem to be an increase in the Midewiwin assertions into this article since the last I looked. Inclusion of Midewiwin is important since, at least at the Mille Lacs Reservation, Midewiwin practitioners are nearly half of the population, Roman Catholics are also nearly half of the population, and the Protestants are in the very small minority.  From what I have been told, Red Lake Reservation have a similar profile.  White Earth Reservation, from what I have been told, nearly half are Protestants, with the remaining half being approximate equal in number in Midewiwin and Roman Catholic.  Since the 1970's, Fond du Lac Reservation, Grand Portage Reservation and Leech Lake Reservation are about a third each.  You have to keep one thing in mind, at least within the United States, from about 1880's until 1978, it was illegal in the US for  Indians to declair themselves as non-Christian, because there was a policy to "Civilize the Savages to be good, productive Christians."  Those who were Midewiwin practitioners were either murdered or were carted off to mental assylums.  In 1978, with the passing of the American Indian Religious Freedom Act, all traditional indigenous faith systems, including Midewiwin, again breathed religeous freedom.   Densmore and Hilger recorded Midewiwin practices, as did Fred Blessing, Jr., during the persicutory period.  More recently, Eddie Benton Benai wrote "The Mishomis Book" that documents more of the Midewiwin practices.  In Canada, due to the isolation policy that better help retain the Ojibwe language in those communities, though there are significant number of Roman Catholic, Anglican and Wesleyan practioners in the Ojibwe communities, there is a strong and growing minority of Midewiwin asserting themselves in those communities.  The Midewiwin assertions in the article might be a reflection of the assertions in these communities in Canada. CJLippert 17:42, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Military history
Perhaps the Battle of Mole Lake should be referenced here somewhere. I'm only posting this because of the notice at the top of that article– I trust that persons more knowledgable about the topic than myself will be able to integrate this (or not if it's too minor). Thanks.--Pharos 03:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey of Anishinaabe-related articles
User:Leo1410 have begun a survey of all thing associated with the Anishinaabe peoples. Please visit (and possibly add, edit) to User:Leo1410/Anishinaabe, or from there create a new article. Miigwech CJLippert 05:31, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Ojibwa vs. Ojibwe
I reverted an edit by User:Puccini999 that changed all spellings of Ojibwa to Ojibwe. Since everything on wiki is based around the Ojibwa spelling, I figured it was too much of a hassle to change everything. However, I do prefer the "Ojibwe" spelling as it is the spelling in the double-vowel alphabet and is more likely to be pronounced correctly in English than Ojibwa is. If someone is passionate enough about changing it, I support it, but make sure to clean up after yourself. Leo1410 04:23, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

About the name
I'm puzzled about two things: -
 * 1) As far as I know there is little, if any, historical evidence supporting the theory that the word "ojibwa" has something to do with the Midewiwin record keeping tradition, which probably is not a very old one (not even mentioned by William W. Warren). This theory in my humble opinion looks more like some kind of a linguist's wishful thinking.
 * 2) The explanation given by William Whipple Warren already in the 1850s is not even mentioned in the article. According to Warren the "cooking theory" is correct, however he pointed out the possibility it was enemies, not moccasins, who were roasted. Napikwan 09:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * There are several differing opinions about the name's origins. In full here they are:
 * "cook until it puckers" in reference to moccasin seams is what elders often cite and found in 18th C. liturature. Since the roasting of enemies is considered inflammatory, since about the 1980s, this is the explanation most often encountered.
 * "cook until it puckers" in reference to enemy torture found in 19th C. liturature, which Warren mentions.
 * "scribes"/"recorders [of a vision]" is Abenaki and Mi'kmaq, but also cited by Louise Erdrich. I have also come across this description in other places as well, but I can't think of where at the moment.
 * "Prime-Stag Clan" from the Algonquins, at least in some French references, but the problem here is that I have not come across the actual Anishinaabe word that sounds like "Ojibwe" meaning "Prime-Stag." Personally, I think this is a misinterpretation of "Anishinaabe" and not "Ojibwe," since the word for "buck" or "stag" is ayaabe.


 * The name is recorded variously as:
 * Achipoés — Prise de Possession (1671) in Perrot, Mém., 293,1864.
 * Achipoué — Neill in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., V, 398, 1885
 * Anchipawah — Boudinot, Star in the West, 126, 1816.
 * Chebois — Gass, Jour., 47, note, 1807.
 * Chepawas — Croghan (1759) quoted by Kauffman, West. Penn., 132, app., 1851.
 * Chepeways — Croghan (1760) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th s., IX, 287,1871.
 * Chepowas — Croghan (1759) quoted by Proud, Penn., II, 296, 1798.
 * Cheppewes — Shirley (1755) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VI, 1027,1855.
 * Chiappawaws — Loudon, Coll. Int. Nar., I, 34, 1808.
 * Chibois — Bouquet (1760) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th s., IX, 295, 1871.
 * Chipawawas — Goldthwait (1766) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st s., X, 122, 1809.
 * Chipaways — Croghan (1760), ibid., 4th s., IX, 250,1871.
 * Chipaweighs — German Flats conf. (1770) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VIII, 229, 1857.
 * Chipewas — Lattré, map U.S., 1784.
 * Chipéways — Carver(1766) Trav., 19, 1778.
 * Chipeweghs — Johnson (1763) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 526, 1856.
 * Chipeweighs — Johnson (1763), ibid., 583, 1856.
 * Chipiwa — Treaty of 1820, U. S. Ind. Treat., 369,1873.
 * Chipoës — Prise de Possession (1671) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., IX, 803, 1855.
 * Chippawas — Croghan (1759) quoted by Jefferson, Notes, 143, 1825.
 * Chipawees — Writer of 1756 Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll. 1st S.,VII, 123, 1801.
 * Chippeouays — Toussaint, map of Am., 1839.
 * Chippewaes — Johnson (1763) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 525, 1856.
 * Chippewais — Perrot (ca. 1721) in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll. II, pt. 2, 24, 1864.
 * Chippewas — Washington (1754) quoted by Kauffman, West. Penn., 67, 1851.
 * Chippewaus — Edwards (1788) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st S., IX, 92, 1804.
 * Chippeways — Chauvignerie (1736) quoted by Schoolcraft, Ind. Tribes, III, 556, 1858.
 * Chippeweighs — Johnson (1767) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 969, 1856.
 * Chippewyse — Ft Johnson conf. (1755), ibid., VI, 975, 1855.
 * Chippoways — Washington (1754) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st S., VI, 140, 1800.
 * Chippuwas — Heckewelder quoted by Barton, New Views, app. 1, 1798.
 * Chipwaes — Croghan (1765) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., VII, 782, 1856.
 * Chipwas — Bouquet (1760) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th S., IX, 321, 1871.
 * Chipways — Croghan (1765), op. cit.
 * Cypoways — Beltrami quoted by Neill, Minn., 350, 1858.
 * Dshipowē-hága — Gatschet, Caughnawaga MS., B. A. E., 1882 (Caughnawaga name).
 * Etchipoës — Prise de possession (1671), ibid., IX, 808, 1855.
 * Gibbaways — Imlay, West Ter., 363, 1797.
 * Jibewas — Smith (1799) quoted by Drake, Trag. Wild., 213, 1841.
 * Objibways — Kingsley, Stand. Nat. Hist., pt. 6, 143, 1883.
 * O¹che¹pe²wa¹g — Long, Exped. St. Peter's R., II, 151, 1824.
 * Ochipawa — Umfreville (1790) in Me. Hist. Soc. Coll., VI, 270, 1859.
 * Ochipewa — Richardson, Arct. Exped., 71, 1851.
 * Ochipoy — York (1700) in N. Y. Doc. Col. Hist., IV, 749,1854.
 * Ochippewais — Foster in Sen. Misc. Doc. 39, 42d Cong., 3d sess., 6, 1873.
 * Odchipewa — Hutchins (1770) quoted by Richardson, Arct. Exped., II, 38, 1851.
 * Odgjiboweke — Perrot. Mém. 193, 1864.
 * Odjibewais — Ibid.
 * Od-jib-wäg — Schoolcraft quoted in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., V, 35, 1885.
 * Odjibwas — Schoolcraft, Ind. Tribes, I, 307, 1851.
 * Odjibwe — Kelton, Ft Mackinac, 153, 1884.
 * Odjibwek — Belcourt (1850?) in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., I, 227, 1872.
 * Ogibois — M'Lean Hudson Bay, II, 323, 1849.
 * O-je-bway — Jones, Ojebway Inds., 164, 1861.
 * Ojeebois — Henry, MS. vocab. (Bell copy, B. A. E.), 1812.
 * Ojibaway — Lewis and Clark, Trav.. 53, 1806.
 * Ojibbewaig — Tanner, Narr., 315, 1830 (Ottawa name).
 * Ojibbeways — Ibid., 36.
 * Ojibboai — Hoffman, Winter in the Far West, II, 15, 1821.
 * Ojibeways — Perkins and Peck, Annals of the West, 1850.
 * Ojibois — Gunn in Smithson. Rep., 400, 1868.
 * Ojibua — Maximilian, Trav., 135, note, 1843.
 * O-jib-wage — Morgan, Consang. and Affin., 287, 1871.
 * Ojibwaig — Hale, Ethnog. and Philol. Mo. Val., 224, 1846.
 * Ojibwas — Ind. Aff. Rep., 454, 1838.
 * O-jib-wa-uk — Morgan, Consang. and Affin., 287, 1871.
 * Ojibways — Am. Pioneer, II, 190, 1843.
 * Ojibway-ugs — Foster in Sen. Misc. Doc. 39, 42d Cong., 3d sess., 6, 1873.
 * Ojibwe — Burton, City of the Saints, 117, 1861.
 * Oshibwek — Belcourt (1850?) in Minn. Hist. Soc. Coll., I, 227, 1872.
 * Otchepóse — Proces verbal (1682) in French, Hist. Coll. La., II, 19, 1875.
 * Otchipoeses — La Salle (1682) in Margry, Déc., II, 187, 1877.
 * Otchipois — La Salle (1682) in French, Hist. Coll. La., I, 46, 1846.
 * Otchipoises — Hildreth, Pioneer Hist., 9, 1848.
 * Otchipwe — Baraga, Otchipwe Gram., title, 1878.
 * Otjibwek — Perrot, Mém., 193, 1864.
 * Ottapoas — Buchanan, N. Am. Inds., 156, 1824.
 * Oucahipues — La Hontan (1703), New Voy., II, 87, 1735.
 * Ouchibois — Writer of 1761 in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 4th s., IX, 428, 1871.
 * Ouchipawah — Pike (1806) quoted by Schoolcraft, Ind.Tribes, III, 563, 1853.
 * Ouchipöe — La Chesnaye (1697) in Margry, Déc., VI, 6, 1886.
 * Ouchipoves — Coxe, Carolana, map, 1741.
 * Outachepas — McKenney and Hall, Ind. Tribes, III, 79, 1854.
 * Outchibouec — Jes. Re1. 1667, 24, 1858.
 * Outchibous — Ibid., 1670, 79, 1858.
 * Outchipoue — Gallinèe (1669) in Margry, Déc. I, 163, 1875.
 * Outchipwais — Bell in Can. Med. and Surg. Jour., Mar. and Apr., 1886.
 * Outehipoues — La Hontan, New Voy., I, 230, 1703.
 * Schipuwe — Heckewelder quoted by Barton, New Views, app., 1, 1798 (German form).
 * Shepawees — Lindesay (1749) in N. Y. Doc. Co1. Hist., VI, 538, 1855.
 * Shepewas — Bradstreet (ca. 1765), ibid., VII, 694, 1856.
 * Shepuway — Heckewelder quoted by Barton, New Views, app., 1, 1798.
 * Tcipu — Dorsey, Kansas MS. vocab., B.A.E.,1882 (Kansa name).
 * Tschipeway — Wrangell, Ethnol. Nachr., 100, 1839.
 * Tschippiweer — Walch, map, 1805 (German form).
 * Tsipu — Dorsey, Osage MS. vocab., B. A. E., 1883 (Osage name).
 * Uchipweys — Dalton (1783) in Mass. Hist. Soc. Coll., 1st s., X, 123, 1809.
 * and this does not even include the Anishinaabe(g), Inini(wag), Saulteurs, Ihohahanton(wan) and Dwakanen variations. If you do a vocabulary examination in liturature, the word that comes up frequently for method of enemy torture is not roasting of one's enemies, but rather the British-initiated scalping of one's enemies.  Even in the Council of Three Fires language, Ojibwe the "Elder Brother" is considered "Keepers of the Faith," which this is done through the Birch bark scrolls.  Even Warren says, "In the Me-da-we rite is incorporated most that is ancient amongst them — songs and traditions that have descended not orally, but in hieroglyphs, for at least a long time of generations. In this rite is also perpetuated the purest and most ancient idioms of their language, which differs somewhat from that of the common every day use."  Since Midewiwin originated in the Atlantic coast, though Midewiwin is now considered an Anishinaabe faith-system, in reality it is a "Waabanakiing" faith system and its teaching, Anishinaabe or Abenaki or Mi'kmaq, are all valid and its explanations are equally valid.  Though the Ojibwe themselves could only guess what the word "Ojibwe" means, in the Waabanakiing, people in the Mide rites will outright tell you it means "Scribes". I know this doesn't answer your question, but this is a start. As we peel away the layers of stories and add in journal articles, book articles, etc., all these will be incorporated.  CJLippert 19:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC) (edited a bit CJLippert).

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:02, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Missing Dokis First Nation
Added Dokis First nation. More info soon to come as well as corresponding wiki page H. Restoule / J. Presley

Ojibwe Prayer to a Slain Deer
I have an Ojibwe/Ojibwa prayer to a slain deer and it's pretty neat. I was wondering if anyone thinks that I should put it on the article someplace? Mattkenn3 22:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be appropriate to place "Ojibwe Prayer to a Slain Deer" in the Ojibwa article. However, it would be very appropriate to provide an external link to the "Ojibwe Prayer to a Slain Deer" at the Anishinaabe traditional beliefs article. CJLippert 23:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Bad link
The link for the maps (#2) is not valid.

James —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.119.221.235 (talk) 21:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Miigwech. The link problem seems to be at the Manitoba Chiefs' site and not Wikipedia.  I have replaced the link instead to go to The Atlas of Canada.  It isn't as direct, but when you zoom to the location of interest, you can get more information and access the static maps just like the ones Manitoba Chiefs had.  Hope this helps. CJLippert 22:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Question for Clarity
The article states that: "The six great miigis beings then established doodem (clans) for the peoples in the east. Of these doodem, the five original Anishinaabe doodem were the Wawaazisii (Bullhead), Baswenaazhi (Echo-maker, i.e., Crane), Aan'aawenh (Pintail Duck), Nooke (Tender, i.e., Bear) and Moozoonsii (Little Moose), then these six miigis beings returned into the ocean as well. If the seventh miigis being stayed, it would have established the Thunderbird doodem."

What is the sixth doodem? And what is the Ojibwe word for Thunderbird (which seems to be the seventh miigis that left for the ocean before the other six)? Thanks!

This map needs work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.136.224 (talk) 01:52, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

138.162.8.58 (talk) 19:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The Thunderbeing/Thunderer/Thunderbird is Animikii. The six doodem groups are the large birds (e.g. Baswenaazhi), little birds (e.g. Aan'aawenh), fish (e.g. Wawaazisii), hoofs (e.g. Moozoonsii), large paws (e.g. Nooke) and the little paws. Just as there are the original Migizi (Bald Eagle) and the those of US ancestry that were folded into the Migizi-doodem, the sixth doodem of the little paws group is generally said to be the Waabizheshi (Marten), but there are those of the original Waabizheshi-doodem, and when the person's actual doodem is not known, the default adoptive doodem is also designated as the Waabizheshi-doodem. Because the little paws group was established by the sixth Miigis being, but that particular doodem was originally not part of the Anishinaabe doodem groups, often the little paws group as a whole are treated as a subgroup within the hoofs group. See "Doodem" for more info. CJLippert (talk) 20:35, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Separate pages for bands, notable people and treaties
The lists of bands, notable people and treaties are very long in this article and take up a lot of space. Perhaps, as in some other articles, they should be moved and each created as a separate article, with references and links from this one. For instance, when editors were working on the "List of African American Firsts", they noticed there were many "first" mayors, so a separate page was made for List of First African-American Mayors. Similarly, in the Mississippi state article, some coverage is given to notable people, but most are listed in a separate, linked article.--Parkwells (talk) 17:54, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
This article has been renamed from Ojibwa to Ojibwe as the result of a move request. - move.

Ojibwa → Ojibwe &mdash; I think we should finally move "Ojibwa" and related items to "Ojibwe". As Leo1410 writes above on this page, Ojibwe "is the spelling in the double-vowel alphabet and is more likely to be pronounced correctly in English than Ojibwa is".. The article on the language has already been moved to Ojibwe language. As Jomeara421 wrote when requestng that move: "This is now the most commonly used English spelling in academics works by scholars of Ojibwe: John Nichols (multiple publications), John Nichols and Earl Nyholm, J. Randolph Valentine (multiple publications). It is also the spelling that most closely reflects the pronunciation of the word in the language itself. It is also widely used in other contemporary linguistically oriented publications, for multiple dialects." Non-academic usage seems to be all over the place and actual Indian groups write Chippewa, Ojibwa, Ojibwe, Ojibway, so there doesn't seem to be any consensus from that perspective. Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 01:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

If this page move goes through, I will request moves of Category:Ojibwa and Category:Ojibwa people, as well as the related categories on Commons.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 01:33, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The pronunciation is a good reason for usage to change; when it has done so, we should follow. My impression is that usage has not changed; until non-academic usage condenses, we should not endorse novelties out of academic correctitude. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "Ojibwe" is not a novelty, though. (Ojibwe -wikipedia) gets 3.4 million hits on Google. This is actually more than (Ojibwa -wikipedia), although less than (Chippewa -wikipedia). There are multiple Ojibwe bands that use this spelling in English.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 00:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Really? Then I'll support Chippewa; the ever-moving goalposts of pedantic accuracy should be avoided, while opposition remains recognizable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:44, 1 July 2009 (UTC)


 * That's a reasonable position. However, in this case, we will have a hard time determining what is the most common term for the ethnic group itself, since a lot of things are named after the group, especially with the name "Chippewa". I notice that the first hit for "Chippewa" on google is "Chippewa Boots" and the third hit is a newspaper in Chippewa Valley.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 02:25, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Chippewa, referring to the people, is pretty much non-existent in Canada. Searching "chippewa thunder bay -wikipedia" gets one result on the main page referring to people and it is "Ojibway or Chippewa Indians"; ""ojibwe" thunder bay -wikipedia" gets mostly results referring to the people and their language. Ojibwe seems like the more logical name for the article from this perspective.  vıd ıoman  12:53, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The only "Ojibwa" support I can find is that in my The American Heritage dic·tion·ar·y contains the following two entries:
 * Chip·pe·wa (chǐp′ə-wô′, -wä′, -wā′, -wə′) n., pl. Chippewa or -was. See Ojibwa.
 * O·jib·wa (ō-jǐb′wā′, -wə) also O·jib·way (-wā′) n., pl. Ojibwa or -was also Ojibway or -ways. 1.a. A native American people originally located north of Lake Huron before moving westward in the 17th and 18th centuries into Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Western Ontario, and Manitoba, with later migration onto the northern Great Plains in North Dakota, Montana, and Saskatchewan. b. A member of this people. 2. The Algonquian language of the Ojibwa. Also called Chippewa. [Ojibwa ojibwe.]
 * Implying "Ojibwa" is English but "Ojibwe" is Ojibwe. CJLippert (talk) 22:24, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, note as well that, in Pimsleur's Ojibwe language-learning material, the language is always referred to in English as Ojibwe. Pimsleur does not seem to have a general practice of using foreign-language names in English; that is, they don't go around saying "Hànyǔ" instead of Chinese or "Français" instead of French, so this implies that they believe "Ojibwe" is an English word.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 01:11, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And here is the entry from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary Online:
 * Main Entry: Ojib·wa
 * Variant(s): or Ojib·way or Ojib·we \ō-ˈjib-(ˌ)wā\
 * Function: noun
 * Inflected Form(s): plural Ojibwa or Ojibwas or Ojibway or Ojibways or Ojibwe or Ojibwes
 * Etymology: Ojibwa očipwe·, an Ojibwa band
 * Date: 1700
 * 1 : a member of an American Indian people of the region around Lake Superior and westward
 * 2 : an Algonquian language of the Ojibwa people
 * CJLippert (talk) 21:31, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * And here is a snippet from Encyclopaedia Britannica:
 * Ojibwa
 * people
 * also spelled Ojibwe or Ojibway, also called Chippewa, self-name Anishinaabe
 * Main
 * Algonquian-speaking North American Indian tribe who lived in what are now Ontario and Manitoba, Can., and Minnesota and North Dakota, U.S., from Lake Huron westward onto the Plains. Their name for themselves means “original people.” ....
 * So, it seems that according to both Merriam-Webster and EB, "Ojibwa" appears to be the preferred spelling, but "Ojibwe" is just as acceptable, and seeing that so far those of us who have voiced our opinions prefer "Ojibwe" over "Ojibwa," so unless someone could fine something definitively against "Ojibwe," we should be able to move the page to it. CJLippert (talk) 21:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support I prefer Ojibwe over Ojibwa, and I am not an academic. I agree with the pronunciation aspect. Using the double vowel writing system, which is the most common, it should be Ojibwe. The variations are the result of different dialects and transliterations, and the double vowel system is the closest thing they have to a standard in both countries. In the issue of which term is being used most often, I find many First Nations and native organizations are moving away from Chippewa/Ojibwe and using Anishinabek more often these days. (For example, Dilico Ojibway Family Care is now Dilico Anishinabek Family Care.) I would support a move to Ojibwe.  vıd ıoman  05:36, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Support I don't think "Ojibwa" is clearly the English name. I've seen Ojibway more in Canada and in the US Ojibwe is replacing Chippewa.  The potential for mispronunciation of Ojibwa seals it for me.  Leo1410 (talk) 19:28, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Support As long as the appropriate re-directs are in place (which they are). But, I don't buy the "pronunciation" argument because through my work at the "Mille Lacs Band of Ojibwe," I have heard people mangle the pronunciation as "Millie Lacks Band of 'O-jibe-we'" instead of "Me Lucks Band of 'O-jib-way'"(and yes, the "s" have been pronounced only for the past century because the proper French pronunciation lead to repeated misspelling as "Lac" instead of "Lacs"... darn uneducated chi-mookwag). CJLippert (talk) 00:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Support. When I lived in the Georgian Bay area many years ago, the First Nations who lived on the eastern shores of the bay called themselves "Ojibway" (though I don't know how they spelled it). Ojibwe seems like the best name all-round with Ojibwa and Chippewa redirecting to it. Sunray (talk) 22:59, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Move requested Sunray (talk) 20:04, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Other tribes known by their Ojibwe/Ottawa names
I believe that parts of this are long term vandalism.
 * Is Arkansas really "Damn Little Kansas"?
 * Is Kanasas really "Hell Hole"?

I'm not certain, it seems to me that both referred to "People of the South Wind". Capitalismojo (talk) 13:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Just as genocide was committed against the Mundua tribe (Mandaawe) because they were "greedy and inhospitable" (mendawed), though their name would really come from Mandaawe ("call through [the night]", as to describe a whippoorwill call), or that the Inuit are called Ashki-amaw ("eat it raw"), though again, their name really comes from Montagnais to mean "Snowshoe netters", the Kaw (Kansas) and Quapaw (Arkansas) names were borrowed in "as it sounds", but again as in forementioned example, also ended up with unflattering names in Ojibwe. Though in Kaw and Quapaw, their own name would mean "People of the South Wind", aakaa in Ojibwe expresses a state of miserable locale. If "People of the South Wind" were literally translated, it would have been Zaawaninoowe. CJLippert (talk) 19:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is a goodbye!
I am both Oneida and Ojibway. And THERE IS a word for Goodbye in Ojibway. Yes it is, "Baama Pii". I'm not sure if I spelt it quite right though! When I leave I say BAMAA PII to my family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oneidagirl (talk • contribs) 03:11, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, no. baamaa pii or more fully as baanimaa apii means "after a while" or "later on" and can be used like "good bye", just as boozhoo (generally used to mean "hello") can be used like "good bye" and giga-waabamin meaning "I will see you" can also be used like "good bye" but NONE of these expressions actually means "good bye". CJLippert (talk) 01:14, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems a bit of a narrow concept of translation to me. What does good bye "actually mean"? Do you only accept literal translations, or translations with the same etymological source meaning?
 * If it can be used as "good bye", it means "good bye". That's how language works. --217.239.2.67 (talk) 07:04, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Opening claim of "equally divided between United States and Canada" at extreme odds with stats provided
It appears that there are roughly three times as many Ojibwe in Canada as the US. Yet the opening paragraph states an equal balance. Furthermore, the right hand summary panel references the Ojibwe people as being found primarily in the US and Canada in that order. Shouldn't that be the other way round? This seems way out of balance with reality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.9.13 (talk) 12:28, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Will reword those areas. Miigwech! CJLippert (talk) 14:28, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Total population
Where was gotten info about total population Ojibwe people in Canada? What sources?--Kaiyr (talk) 15:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Population numbers lack sources
None of the population numbers in the Lead or Infobox have sources, and the numbers do not appear sourced within the main article.Parkwells (talk) 17:27, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Ojibwe v. Ojibwa
I reverted an IP who has repeatedly changed the spelling in the article to Ojibwa. I believe consensus following the page move is for Ojibwe. GregJackP  Boomer!   23:57, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Ted Nolan
Has been rehired as coach of the Buffalo Sabres. His tab under notable people should be updated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.85.66.29 (talk) 04:46, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
Can someone knowledgeable please check the "Other tribes known by their Ojibwe/Ottawa names" section and revert back any childish vandalism. A thorough read of the article looking for another 'edits' is probably necessary as well.207.164.34.254 (talk) 04:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed a section that seemed to be the work of vandals. This is not the first time that this article has been vandalized...  I read the entire article and if there is more, I'm not aware of it.  Thanks for the alert!  Gandydancer (talk) 14:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Please add Meegwun Fairbrother (Actor/Traditional Singer/Traditional Dancer) to notable people
Meegwun Fairbrother is an Actor, Traditional Singer and Traditional Dancer, attributed as Ojibway from Grassy Narrows First Nation. He is currently a supporting actor in the Scyfy Channel new series "Helix" (January 2014). Biography information can be found here: http://www.atlasstage.com/people/meegwun-fairbrother/

(Note: The linked bio is a bit out of date, since it doesn't include his most recent work.) Thank you.

24.99.111.155 (talk) 23:34, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the info! I added it. Gandydancer (talk) 13:13, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Chipewyan people which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 09:45, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 22:10, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Ojibwe people → Ojibwe – target is redirect to current title created/moved by Kwami on June 28 2011 contrary to WP:UNDAB. NB Ojibwe (disambiguation) redirects to Ojibway (disambiguation); all items there ultimately have t his people as their origin/source, no matter by what spelling. Skookum1 (talk) 05:00, 20 March 2014 (UTC) target is redirect to current title created by Kwami on June 28 2011. NB Ojibwe (disambiguation) redirects to Ojibway (disambiguation); all items there ultimately have t his people as their origin/source, no matter by what spelling.
 * Oppose until the issue is addressed properly. These should be discussed at a centralized location.
 * There was a discussion once on whether the ethnicity should have precedence for the name, and it was decided it shouldn't. That could be revisited.  But it really should be one discussion on the principle, not thousands of separate discussions at every ethnicity in the world over whether it should be at "X", "Xs", or "X people".  — kwami (talk) 12:54, 20 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. An identified people should be the primary topic of a term absent something remarkable standing in the way. bd2412  T 02:37, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Support as per the policy Article titles and the guideline Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes). The section Article titles also applies given that Ojibwe redirects here. There is no need to redo any guideline as it already supports the un-disabiguated title. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 04:41, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per CambridgeBayWeather. In cases where the requested move simply eliminates the word "people", and the destination title is already a simple redirect to the current title, it is clear that guidelines favoring both precision and conciseness support the move. Xoloz (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Please Please Wikipedia
A new editor posted a plea for edits in the article rather than here. I move it here for discussion.:
 * "P.S Wikepedia: The Ojibwa were found along the shore of Lake Huron and Lake Superior to the edge of the praries." - Vivianwii

I imagine that, with proper refs, we could add this info into the article. Capitalismojo (talk) 20:29, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It's already covered within the article.Parkwells (talk) 12:17, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Ojibwe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070926234640/http://www.ereader.com/product/book/excerpt/23450?book=Books_and_Islands_in_Ojibwe_Country to http://www.ereader.com/product/book/excerpt/23450?book=Books_and_Islands_in_Ojibwe_Country

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:10, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Some Ojibwe don't like "Chippewa"
I have an acquaintance who is part (half, I think) Ojibwe. He has told me that many Ojibwe don't like to be called "Chippewa" and consider that name mildly offensive. Anybody know anything about that? Ericp-nh (talk) 11:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

> I can't speak for Ojibwe who dislike "Chippewa", of course, but in southern Ontario, Chippewa is by far for the most common name used by the bands here. These include: "Ojibwe" is more the exception here, expressed by the Saugeen nations around the Bruce Peninsula. (There, "Ojibway" is the common spelling.) In recent years, "Anishinaabe" has come into common usage, although that term refers to more nations than just the Ojibwe. Lyn (talk) 15:31, 4 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Chippewas of the Thames
 * Chippewas of Kettle Point and Stony Point
 * Chippewas of Sarnia (now changed to Aamjiwnaang First Nation)
 * Chippewas of Nawash
 * Chippewas of Rama

I'm Ojibwe, in USA. I dont know anyone who would get upset by it but some see it as antiquated or otherwise less correct somehow than Ojibwe. It was more popular when I was a kid, I personally just see it as an alternate spelling thats fallen out of favor/use in recent years. Its highly regional though as above comment suggests. sorry for any formatting issues, dont think ive ever posted here before -TB 134.228.226.219 (talk) 04:14, 4 March 2022 (UTC)


 * source backing up what I said
 * "Some Europeans had trouble saying Ojibwe, pronouncing it instead as Chippewa." https://whiteearth.com/history 134.228.226.219 (talk) 18:00, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Numbers do not add up
The lead reads, "The majority of the Ojibwe peoples live in Canada. There are 77,940 mainline Ojibwe; 76,760 Saulteaux and 8,770 Mississaugas, organized in 125 bands, and living from western Quebec to eastern British Columbia. As of 2010, Ojibwe in the U.S. number 170,742." So in Canada there are 77940+76760+8770 = 163,470 Ojibweg, but that's more than the 170,742 in the USA? Am I missing something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by IAmNitpicking (talk • contribs) 21:45, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. Where did number of Ojibwe peoples of Canada come from?--Kaiyr (talk) 19:54, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 01:46, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 one external links on Ojibwe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20100927034918/http://shop.mnhs.org:80/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=2713 to http://shop.mnhs.org/moreinfo.cfm?product_id=2713
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20150219042924/http://www.tolatsga.org:80/ojib.html to http://www.tolatsga.org/ojib.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 16:53, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

majority of the Ojibwe people live in Canada
The numbers in that paragraph are confusing. The total of the three numbers given for Canada is 163,470. The number for the U.S. 170,742, which is obviously more. Some numbers are missing for Canada, or there are more in the U.S.

Rocksnstars (talk) 00:34, 25 February 2017 (UTC)tom hoffelder (rocksnstars)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Ojibwe. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.cdc.gov/minorityhealth/populations/REMP/aian.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100409025405/http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/history/mncultures/anishinabe.html to http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/history/mncultures/anishinabe.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070311140555/http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/wm/63.1/bohaker.html to http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/wm/63.1/bohaker.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 17:04, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Gender Roles - Pre Columbian
I will be adding a paragraph regarding gender roles of Ojibwe men and women, pre Columbian. Thelbee (talk) 02:14, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The Ojibwe people are a living culture, so please do not write about them in the past tense. Learn the difference between what was done in the past and what is still done in the culture before trying to write about the culture. Learn how to cite content properly for Wikipedia. See WP:CITE. You need more practice before working in article space. - CorbieV  ☊ ☼ 21:23, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
 * What if he actually wants to study pre-colonial Ojibwe, you know, before their culture was fundamentally altered by contact with the Europeans? Like people study old French apart from Modern French, or Roman Era Britain apart from modern Brits. He didn't imply they were a dead culture, so calm down. 66.81.179.206 (talk) 14:53, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi, I am sorry that I referred to them in the past. I was trying to talk about their culture pre-Columbian era, but I realize now that I should have made sure that was clear. I did the best work that I could; I spent 7 hours on that paragraph and used the database from our school; I also followed the direction of our visiting librarian regarding citation. I was vigorous in my citation to avoid any type of plagiarism. Thelbee (talk) 17:02, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Update: I will not be posting again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelbee (talk • contribs) 20:37, 30 June 2019 (UTC)


 * It was good sourced material.   Needed a couple words changed to clarify the tense / era issues.  And  you put a vandalism type notice on their talk page. Now and both the editor and the material are gone.Nice work  CorbieVreccan. North8000 (talk) 20:17, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Present distribution map
Is there a map for the present distribution of the Ojibwe? If so it should be included in the article, if not it should be created. Scu ba (talk) 02:37, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Older history
This article describes their location at the time of the first European contact. I've read in several places that they were from the east coast and them moved into the area described in this article. If so, it would be good to cover this. North8000 (talk) 18:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * "According to Ojibwe oral history and from recordings in birch bark scrolls, the Ojibwe originated from the mouth of the Saint Lawrence River on the Atlantic coast of what is now Quebec.[17]" Yuchitown (talk) 19:08, 19 June 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * That section seems to blend mythology and history, giving it the same status/ treatment as them being taught by Cowrie shells. I'll keep my eyes open for any academic sources that would help. Sincerely, North8000</b> (talk) 19:57, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Gallery
The gallery towards the end of the article seems to me to be poorly organized mishmash of images. Many of the captions don't give a lot of context. Inasmuch as there's already a link to Commons, why does this article need a gallery like this? Indyguy (talk) 22:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)