Talk:Old Brown Shoe

Fair use rationale for Image:BalldofJohnandYoko singlecover.jpg
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 * Added/updated FU rationale. &mdash; John Cardinal 03:27, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Balladofjohnandyokocover.jpg
Image:Balladofjohnandyokocover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Bass Dispute
Although Harrison claimed to have performed the bass part in his CREEM interview, Ian MacDonald says in Revolution In The Head  (p. 347) that Paul McCartney plays bass on the track. As most articles on specific Beatles songs rely on MacDonald's text for personnel, I believe it should be left as such. Here is the previous version of the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Old_Brown_Shoe&oldid=479399925 Derekgbolton (talk) 21:31, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * If Harrison says he played the bass, then he played it; he was there, MacDonald wasn't.  R ad io pa th y  •talk•  23:45, 29 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Lennon claimed in his Playboy interview that he wrote Two Of Us, but it's still accepted that McCartney wrote it and the page on the song reflects that. What I've read from Ian MacDonald and Mark Lewisohn, they both list McCartney as having played bass. With a lot of the bitterness that arose after their break-up, I tend to trust the leading Beatles historians over some of the claims they made about/toward each other. Harrison said that twenty years after the song was recorded. He may have been mistaken about a previous demo, or maybe he did play it. In the interest of keeping this article accurate, I feel it is better to cite texts than verbal claims. Additionally, if you read about the Beatles recording session on April 16th, 1969 it says that McCartney and Harrison added bass and electric guitar overdubs on track six doubling up the same riffs. It would be logical to assume that McCartney played bass and Harrison played guitar, though it isn't stated who plays which. If Harrison did play bass, then McCartney would probably be credited with playing guitar, but I've only seen one instance where he is, which was edited based on Harrison's claim to having played the bass part. Derekgbolton (talk) 11:00, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree. If you delete Everett it seems this is really an exercise in new research. If you read the interview carefully, Harrison is very cagey about saying he played bass. He says he played. This is consistent with him playing guitar in synchrony with the bass as Everett notes. Should include this: "Everett states that it was McCartney's jazz bass doubled in the bridge with Harrison's telecaster playing chromatically moving arpeggiations in a similar manner to the bridge guitars in And Your Bird Can Sing. Walter Everett. The Beatles as Musicians: Revolver Through the Anthology. Oxford University Press. NY. 1999. p 243130.56.71.197 (talk) 00:51, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

I have seen Old Brown Shoe continuously being edited-sometimes it says George Harrison played bass and sometimes it says Paul McCartney played bass. But like User:Radiopathy said three years ago-if George Harrison says he played bass then he did. Even so, I read somewhere about this song that "all guitars including the bass were played by George Harrison" and if I knew the name of that sight I would use it as a reference. I also read (it may have been that same site) that "even though John Lennon played guitar in the song, it was removed from the final recording and replaced by the organ, also played by George Harrison." I do believe that George Harrison played bass in the song.--Kevjgav (talk) 21:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Update. I agree with Radiopathy's and Kevjgav's points on this and have changed (I'd say "corrected") the text as I've been expanding the article.

In reply to those who think McCartney should be credited, I say first of all that MacDonald's credits have been found to be incorrect in several Wikipedia song and album articles. I'd normally go with Lewisohn, who as a rule doesn't always list specific contributors (it's later writers such as MacDonald who go one step further and join the dots, identifying which Beatle played what but often demonstrating either a bias [eg if in doubt, it must be McCartney ...], or coming up with a scenario that more recent research has proven to be impossible). But even Lewisohn is wrong, very occasionally. His crediting McCartney for the bass on "Old Brown Shoe" is one example, I believe, and the piano credit for "Something" is the only other occasion that I've come across.

Against Lewisohn, MacDonald and Everett's attribution of the bass, from books published in 1988, 1997 and 1999, respectively, we have Jean-Michel Guesdon & Philippe Margotin (2013) and Kenneth Womack (2014) who all credit Harrison. The difference with these last two works is that the authors take into account Harrison's comments about the song in his 1987 Creem interview. MacDonald – who appears to have taken anything Barry Miles passed on to him as gospel when updating Revolution in the Head in 1997 (in his preface to the revised edition, MacDonald acknowledges he's been influenced by Miles, who's authorised biography on McCartney was about to be published) – seems to be unaware of Harrison's statement. Any claim from McCartney, he usually takes as fact.

Another factor, I believe, is that it's a mistake to tar Harrison with the same brush as McCartney and Lennon. He most positively did not go about trying to grab credits or emphasise his contributions to the Beatles' work in the manner that Lennon did, usually through exaggeration, in his interviews from 1970 onwards, or in the way that McCartney did in what's recognised by most discerning biographers as a relentless campaign for recognition in the wake of Lennon's death – starting in about 1986 and most definitely including Miles' 1997 book Many Years from Now. You've only got to read Harrison's 1980 autobiography I, Me, Mine or his comments in the Beatles Anthology book to appreciate the difference between his approach and that of his two former bandmates.

Finally, it's not as if McCartney has ever said that he played bass on "Old Brown Shoe", whereas Harrison has claimed the part. The discrepancy appears to be in the paperwork – the session notes that Lewisohn had access to in the 1980s.

On a purely subjective level, I don't think the part sounds anything like McCartney's bass playing, anyway. The playing in the verses, in particular, is so understated, whereas McCartney's tendency (on any instrument) is to be busy and to dominate the performance. I appreciate it amounts to OR on my part, but the bass on this song is more in keeping with any number of Harrison bass parts – "She Said She Said", "Faster", "Wake Up My Love" and some of the tracks on Brainwashed come to mind, all parts that are very "tidy" and understated, with little in the way of embellishment. Put it this way, had Everett, MacDonald et al read the Creem interview and then actively listened to the bass on "Old Brown Shoe", I can't help thinking they'd have come up with a different credit. JG66 (talk) 04:22, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd add to JG66's analysis that it's *extremely* unlikely that mccartney would've played a bass part that exactly follows the guitar part, which (in the harrison quote & just plain listening to the recording) is obviously what's going on. mccartney would either have written a complementary part or he would've plodded disinterestedly. while we're doing the OR thing here, the bass part sounds to me like it was done with a pick on a fender VI, & the instrument they had was a righty. macca was occupied with the piano part too. also- my earlier edition of RITH (the macdonald 'bible' on beatles sessions) is wrong on the personnel for "she said" on 'revolver', crediting mccartney with bass on that, when he'd flounced after more "he hasn't done acid yet" teasing, leaving harrison to do it. there's a hint in most accounts of this of harrison exacting some sort of payback for the 'taxman' solo; I think it was more a case of needs-must.

just for a laugh, though, here's GH teaching them the song, apparently at the piano with PM trying to follow on the bass. the upside-down shuffle rhythm is already in place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrvXGdDNYd4

duncanrmi (talk) 08:17, 10 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised to hear/read you say that "most accounts" suggest McCartney's "She Said She Said" walkout and Harrison's commandeering of the bass for that track was some sort of payback for the "Taxman" solo. I've read no end of material about the Revolver sessions, and maybe I've come across a writer speculating on this (it rings a bell, vaguely), but "most accounts" ... really? MacDonald altered the "She Said" credits for his final revised edition, btw. JG66 (talk) 13:30, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Mark Lewisohn did state that at one stage, he found that the basic track to "She Said She Said" had two guitars, bass and drums, so perhaps Paul did play bass on the basic track of that song, but he walked out when they were recording the vocals. Dave Rybaczewski's page on "Old Brown Shoe" reveals that it was in fact Paul playing the bass on the song, just as George Martin's handwritten notes reveal, and John's rhythm guitar contribution was actually not fully erased, according to a comment on Beatles Bible. I seriously doubt that George would've commandeered the bass duties on "She Said She Said" as "payback" for the "Taxman" guitar solo and neither his nor Paul's recollections support what Geoff Emerick wrote (he himself stated in 1979 that he had no memories of the "Taxman" session). 220.245.23.160 (talk) 01:35, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Who played the Organ, Harrison or Billy Preston?
I have also seen a lot of disputes about the Organ-some sites say it was George Harrison and others say that Billy Preston played organ. Honestly, I don't know which site to believe, so I am not going to edit the "band lineup" section and will just leave that section "as-is" unless I find out for certain that it was Billy Preston. I know Billy Preston played Hammond organ on "Let It Be" and Fender Rhodes Electric piano on "Get Back" "Don't Let Me Down" and the "Let It Be...Naked" version of "The Long And Winding Road" but those are different songs altogether.--Kevjgav (talk) 18:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

According to George Martin's production notes, it appears that both Lennon and Harrison overdubbed the organ together, so should that be used as the source, since they were written at the time of the recording? 60.240.8.249 (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Bass and organ were both played by George Harrison
The sites that say Billy Preston played organ are the same sites that say Paul McCartney played bass. Those sites have the following band lineup: George Harrison (lead vocals, guitar) John Lennon (backing vocals) Paul McCartney (piano, bass, backing vocals) Ringo Starr (drums) Billy Preston (organ) but "The Beatles Bible" has the same band lineup as this article: George Harrison (lead vocals, guitar, bass, organ) John Lennon (backing vocals) Paul McCartney (piano, backing vocals) Ringo Starr (drums) and it appears that George Harrison played organ and Billy Preston didn't record on this song.--Kevjgav (talk) 18:54, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

That seems.........unlikely. If George Harrison says that he played bass on this song then he did. I suspect that the sight that says that Paul McCartney played bass made an error. --  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 08:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

If you look at the "bass dispute" thread, you will see that it was Ian MacDonald who said that McCartney played bass, but George Harrison said he played bass, and Harrison was there and MacDonald wasn't. Though I believe that the organ part on this song may have actually been Billy Preston as this song was recorded around that time. If Billy Preston did play organ on this, can anyone verify that?--Kevjgav (talk) 10:46, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I doubt that Billy Preston played organ in the song because the only songs he participated in were the ones recorded in January 1969 for Let It Be. Old Brown Shoe wasn't recorded until April. --  C.Syde  ( talk &#124;  contribs ) 09:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

I just read http://www.thebeatlesbible.com/songs/old-brown-shoe/ and it says that it was George Harrison who played organ in the song, not Billy Preston. This information is consistent with old Brown Shoe. I think that The Beatles Bible is a pretty reliable source of information about who played what in a Beatles song.--Kevjgav (talk) 13:14, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I haven't really seen The Beatles bible before, but I trust that it is a reliable site with accurate information. -- C.Syde  ( talk  &#124;  contribs ) 01:18, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't trust all of Ian MacDonald's information
I don't really trust everything that Ian MacDonald says about the band lineup on Beatles songs because he erroneously showed the following band lineup for this song; George Harrison (lead vocals, guitar) Paul McCartney (bass, piano, backing vocals) John Lennon (backing vocals) Ringo Starr (drums) and Billy Preston (organ) but The Beatles Bible (and all other sites) are consistent with this article: George Harrison (lead vocals, guitar, bass, organ) Paul McCartney (piano, backing vocals) John Lennon (backing vocals) and Ringo Starr (drums) and I think The Beatles Bible is right and that Ian MacDonald somehow made an error.--Kevjgav (talk) 19:17, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Also, Ian MacDonald is mostly the source for The Beatles Bible, but I know that Paul McCartney didn't play bass because George Harrison said that he played bass. I also know that Billy Preston didn't play organ because he only participated in the "Let It Be" sessions in January 1969 like you said, and this song was recorded after the "Let It Be" sessions. I don't know why MacDonald listed McCartney on bass and Billy Preston on organ because all other sites say that both these instruments were played by Harrison.--Kevjgav (talk) 01:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, Ian MacDonald's book should just be disqualified altogether, because it clearly is not a reliable source, and he would routinely take claims from Paul as fact. None of their memories were 100% infallible or perfect and George may have been referring to the demo when he stated that he played the bassline, not necessarily the final mix. 220.245.23.160 (talk) 01:39, 9 October 2021 (UTC)

Lineup on the track
Please stop changing the band lineup to "Paul McCartney on bass." If George Harrison says he played bass in the song then he did.


 * George Harrison - Lead vocals, guitars, organ, bass guitar
 * Paul McCartney - tack piano, backing vocal
 * John Lennon - backing vocal
 * Ringo Starr - drums

That's right, so leave it.--Kevjgav (talk) 22:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Fair use rationale for File:George Harrison's guitar solo from "Old Brown Shoe", April 1969.ogg
File:George Harrison's guitar solo from "Old Brown Shoe", April 1969.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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-- Marchjuly (talk) 04:17, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Gary Brooker photo
This photo is indeed Brooker, but is not from the Concert for George. In that concert Brooker wore all black and no jacket, unlike this pic Ralphie72 (talk) 00:21, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Line-up according to Mal Evans' diary
The mystery of the most mysterious Beatles instrument line-up gets added onto by this. https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/discussion-the-beatles-old-brown-shoe-paul-or-ringo-on-drums.889603/page-126#post-33456482

Obviously as it's just a forum entry at this point, we can't cite it (hopefully Kenneth Womack will publish it in a book we can cite). But apparently Mal Evans wrote down this line-up:

George Harrison - piano and vocals

John Lennon - guitar

Paul McCartney - bass

Ringo Starr - drums

This makes some sort of sense, since George wrote the song on piano and it's the driving instrument. On the other hand, there is no bass on Take 2, which means it was overdubbed later - begging the question why Paul sat out the basic track and also why George would later claim it's him on bass. But at least it's another source for Ringo on drums. Jules TH 16 (talk) 10:15, 21 February 2024 (UTC)