Talk:Old Dan Tucker

Historical Dan Tucker's Decendents
This editor [alicejean23] is a direct decendent. My family has several stories about old Dan Tucker. James Guy Tucker, former Arkansas governor, is also a direct decendent. This is a line of research that may be available to support this article. Please indicate interest within this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Musicological analyses
I'm currently working on a major expansion of this article, but I've hit a snag. Two of my sources are written by musicologists, so they give great information for the article. However, my own understanding of the terminology they're using is somewhat limited. I'm trying to determine whether the two writers are in agreement about tthe song or if I need to present both of their views as potentially contradictory. Here are some quotes and paraphrases:

First, from Cockrell, Dale (1997). Demons of Disorder: Early Blackface Minstrels and Their World. Cambridge University Press.:


 * Cockrell says that it represents the transition from the Jim Crow era to the more refined minstrel show of later decades. (Cockrell 155)


 * The lyrics are of secondary importance to the music. (Cockrell 156)


 * The refrain includes syncopation that had only ever appeared in minstrelsy in "Zip Coon". (Cockrell 156)


 * "The rhythmic energy generated propels the song along." (Cockrell 156)


 * "The harmonic scheme is effective in supporting the melody." (Cockrell 156)


 * "Most significantly, this is not a song for singing so much as for playing." (Cockrell 156)


 * The song did not even have to be danced to; Cockrell says that the music stands on its own merits. (Cockrell 156-7)

Now for Crawford, Richard (2001). America's Musical Life: A History. New York: W. W. Norton & Company, Inc.:


 * Crawford says that ODT "illustrates one way in which early minstrelsy translated raw energy into song." (Crawford 206)


 * Crawford says it matches the "melodic idiom" of earlier songs like "Jump Jim Crow", "Coal Black Rose", and "Zip Coon". (Crawford 206)


 * It does not have a "harmonized melody"; it is "more like a musical framework in which words are declaimed to a strict, driving beat." (Crawford 206)


 * Almost 3/4 of the syllables are on the same note, "indicating that text declamation, not tune, is the animating force." (Crawford 208)


 * Rhythm's primacy is also suggested by the fact that the "phrase endings are given no time to settle in." Instead, verses give straight away to chorus, which ends on an eight note and no rest, which leads into the next coda, which begins in a downbeat. (Crawford 208)


 * ODT's intro is "sound and rhythm" with little melody. (Crawford 210)


 * ODT "represented the dominant voice of early minstrelsy: the black mask, linked with muscular, unlyrical music, that invited white entertainers to mock genteel social customs with fierce intensity." (Crawford 211)

Sounds like Cockrell and Crawford are in disagreement on how "refined" ODT really is. Am I misreading this? Anyone speak musicologese? — BrianSmithson 07:30, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Almost all of the statements seem to be about how it's all about the music and not the singing. The only possible contradiction is Cockrell's first statement, but I don't know enough about the subject to say whether it's really contradictory. -Freekee 14:59, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe there are some apparently contradicting viewpoints. The contradiction most striking to me is Cockrell's "The lyrics are of secondary importance to the music" a rather subjective and broad statement. Cockrell's statement about the importance of playing over singing also showcases this view, also I see little musical reasoning given to support it. Crawford appears to argue the opposite with "Almost 3/4 of the syllables are on the same note, "indicating that text declamation, not tune, is the animating force."

Both agree on the importance of rhythm. Regarding harmony, again Cockrell's comment is broad and doesn't really contain much beyond a subjective generalization ("The harmonic scheme is effective in supporting the melody") What does effective mean? Unless there is more information, this comment is essentially useless for an encyclopedia article. Crawford's comment "It does not have a "harmonized melody"; it is "more like a musical framework in which words are declaimed to a strict, driving beat." suggests that the harmony, like the melody, is not a driving force in the music.

In terms of their general view of the song, Cockrell cite ODT as part of a transition to "refined" minstrel shows (an oxymoron?) while Crawford calls it "muscular, unlyrical music, that invited white entertainers to mock genteel social customs with fierce intensity". Those points don't seem to agree.

IMO, and from what I can see, Crawford's points make more musical sense. I'm also familiar with his work as a scholar of American music so I trust his intrepretation, although that's all some of this is: interpretation. Let me know if I can help make anything else clearer. Best wishes, MarkBuckles (talk) 01:49, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much to both of you. I could be mis-paraphrasing Cockrell; I'll be sure to recheck his work. A for "refined" minstrelsy, he's referring to the later years of that form when the music became a lot more European in character to appeal to the middle class rather than the working class. Again, thanks. — BrianSmithson 04:11, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Sample
Could someone add a sample to the article. It would be great to hear what this song is like. Thank you. CG 14:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm working on it. I'm having problems with Audacity at the moment, unfortunately. In the meantime, there are several sample versions linked to in the External links section. -- BrianSmithson 23:47, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Finally figured it out. — BrianSmithson 14:42, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Little House on the Prairie
I removed this bit:


 * The song was featured in the book Little House on the Prairie, and was a leitmotif for the character of Isaiah Edwards (played by Victor French) in the television series of the same name.

It seems like trivia to me. Is there any reason these specific uses of "Old Dan Tucker" are more notable than the dozens of others that could be added to the article? If so, we can reinstate the text, but it would be nice to have a third-party source that acknowledges thier notability first. — BrianSmithson 02:34, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Point taken. I'll wager Little House on the Prairie (book and movie) are much more widely known known than the Springsteen album (600,000 sold) or any of the children's collections that *are* mentioned in the article, and I'd be surprised to learn of any comparably popular television series or film which features the song as prominently or frequently.  And most of my acquiantances know the song solely or primarily from the television program, and associate the two.  I thought the reference would help people who are familiar with the show "place" the song.  But I don't have a third-party source stating any of that, so I will not attempt to re-insert the reference. PubliusFL 17:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * For what it's worth, here's one third-party source, although it doesn't specifically mention ODT: Publisher's Weekly says that Little House on the Prairie is the 12th best-selling paperback children's book of all time, with over 6.1 million copies sold in paperback alone, as of 2001. Even without data for total number of viewers of the television series (which would have to be in the tens of millions, especially counting all of the re-runs), how many of the "dozens of other" published versions of the song have numbers approaching this?  The section *is* called "Popularity." PubliusFL 18:21, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, my concern is to avoid a long, listy list of all references to "Old Dan Tucker" in other elements of popular culture. If we add one, it becomes a slippery slope with folks adding things like, "In Episode 351 of The Simpsons, Homer calls Bart 'Old Dan Tucker'" and "In The Soparanos, Tony sometimes works from a club called The Old Dan Tucker." (Those are made-up examples, by the way. ;)) But with LHOTP as popular as it is and has been, it seems like some analyst or critic would have mentioned the song's role. (What role does the song play in the books, by the way? I watched the TV show as a kid, but don't remember the song being in it.) — BrianSmithson 22:20, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My first experience with the song was from Little House, so just speaking as an AC I'd think it would warrant a mention. If not here, then maybe on the Little House page.  As I remember, our introduction to Mr. Edwards was him singing the song as he walked (I can't remember if it was when he was first approaching or first leaving the Ingalls farm).  He only did it for the first couple of appearances, after which they inexplicably stopped having him sing it.  But it was memorable. :) --Anonymous Coward 69.15.18.170 21:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think there should be a reference to LHOTP in this article. Unless you have a degree in southern history or music, I'd venture a guess that 99% of English speakers have never heard of this song unless they watched the show. Just my Northeastern point of view, maybe it's different in other parts of the country, but I doubt it. Seems to me that a show warrants mention when it perpetuated the knowledge of an otherwise very obscure song through television. -SW —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

This is the only reason I read the article, because I remmeber this as the song Mr. Edwards always sang. The tune was also the one used as his theme song on the show. I think it's significant for the TV generation and should be added. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

I was dumbstruck to find that "Little House on the Prairie" was not mentioned in this article. Mr. Edwards seemed to sing the song in quite a few episodes. I am glad to see that it has inspired a lengthy discussion anyways. Mark W. Miller 19:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Scottish connection?
I'm interested in the similarity in the lyrics to a rhyme my grandmother would sing to us as kids in Scotland:


 * Dan, Dan the cundy man
 * Washt his face in a fryin pan,
 * Combed his hair wi the leg o a chair,
 * Dan, Dan the cundy man.

She only ever sang this one verse. The melody was similar but also similar to that for Tom, Tom, the Piper's Son. I've no idea of it's origins. Incidentally a cundy is a drain or a sewer, so a cundy man is someone who maintains or builds drains. Mutt Lunker 13:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It's entirely possible that the song crossed the Atlantic and entered the folklore of Scotland (and probably Ireland and England too). In fact, I'd be surprised if it hadn't. I seem to remember in my research encountering Australian versions, as well, though I may be confusing this song with "Dixie". If you can find a published version from Scotland or elsewhere, it's certainly worth mentioning in the article. — Brian ( talk ) 22:17, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Huge gap
Can someone fix the huge gap below the wikisource template? I'd like to feature this on the main page, but that's just plain unsightly. Raul654 21:40, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't see any gap. Still, I've updated the images with the "upright" marker where necessary; did that make any significant differenct for you? — Brian ( talk ) 22:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't show up in classic (the skin I use by default) but it does show up in Monobook. I've tried it on two different computers using different versions of IE - same result each time. Raul654 14:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Tried moving the template to the "external links" section. Any better? (I still have no gap on my own Monobook in Safari). — Brian ( talk ) 22:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's better. Raul654 05:37, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Free music
Is this in the public domain? It's just after the 1922 cutoff, but methinks there's a good chance it might not have been renewed. Raul654 05:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know how to check the copyright status. At any rate, that sounds like a completely different song, despite the title and calls. — Brian ( talk ) 08:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have been told that due to copyright laws at the time, all pre-1930 recordings made in the USA are PD, which has been successfully confirmed by various reissue cds. Note I Am Not A Lawyer. -- Infrogmation 02:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

West African
Dang, I wish I'd known this was going to be featured in time to ask someone for input. I recall a music historian friend who gave a presentation some years ago where he claimed to have traced "Old Dan Tucker" as a West African melody and said there's a phrase in a West African language roughly "Odan tucka" which means "he's a sly bastard" which makes perfect sence in the lyrics of the song. I don't know if he's published this stuff yet. -- Infrogmation 02:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fascinating theory. If you track down a published version of this story, by all means, integrate it in with the more conventional analysis that's there now. — Brian ( talk ) 03:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Reverts
This is featured on a day when I do not have regular internet access. So, here is a catch-all explanation of some of the changes/restorations I have made on my lunch break:
 * The Little House on the Prairie stuff has been discussed above and deemed not notable. It would be untenable to try to list every appearance of the song in American media anywhere.
 * The lead change to call this a denigrating song etc. was reverted. This interpretation may be correct, but it is POV in that it ignores other theories of the song's origins (i.e., it was written by slaves).
 * The removal of the fact that it's a children's song was restored. The fact that many public-domain songs are on children's albums doesn't change the fact that this song is on many children's albums. Search for the song on iTunes and see how many of the hits are for children's albums versus those in other genres.

I think that's it for now. . . — Brian ( talk ) 03:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I contest that its reference in Little House is not notable. I have not read the books, so I do not know if it is mentioned there, but in the television show Mr. Edwards sings the song several times through the series. I believe that this is notable because due to the popularity of the show, and the lack of awareness of the song outside certain cultural circles due to lack of proper cultural diffusion, the show could potentially be the only source of said awareness for millions of people, including myself. In my view, notability is defined as the amount of awareness by the global populace on a topic, and the show's inclusion of this song is the only reason why it has reached widespread global awareness. Archon of Atlantis 06:34, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but the idea that Little House is the only reason "Old Dan Tucker" ever "achieved widespread global awareness" is just plain wrong. The fact that it was the second-most popular song of the early 19th century, thus thrusting the song into international Anglophone folk culture, probably had more to do with that. I can see why an aside about Little House might be fit in, but certainly no more than a sentence or so is warranted. Like I said, the purpose of this article is not to document every use of "Old Dan Tucker" in American media anywhere. That would be untenable. — Brian ( talk ) 07:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

While I agree that we're not here to document "every use" of the song in American media, there is an argument for mentioning particularly notable examples of use in the media. The song may have achieved massive popularity on its own, but "Little House" served to reintroduce the song to an entire generation of Americans, long after the song had passed into relative obscurity. I think there is a compelling argument towards including a reference to its appearance in Little House. However, I'd also be willing to concede that we might want to find some sort of third party source actually discussing this phenomena, and citing this source, before including this reference in the article. I'll see if I can dig anything up. Dexeron 14:06, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I re-added the mention of Little House, but I do agree that a third-party source discussing the song's use in the book and television show would be preferable to a simple "It was used in Little House" sort of sentence. Any luck? — Brian ( talk ) 08:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Round 2

 * Wikipedia is not censored. I've restored the ribald folk version.
 * I restored the Little House reference.
 * I removed the mention of Springsteen from the lead. It's really not that notable.
 * I restored a few things here and there to their original wording. If there's no change in meaning, there's no reason to change to some other form.

Hopefully my internet situation will stabilize soon. . . ;) — Brian ( talk ) 08:24, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Political versions
The alternative verse referring to Abraham Lincoln sounds a whole lot more like it's from the presidential campaign of 1860 than the civil war -- by the time the fighting started, Stephen A. Douglas was dead and gone, and he had done a lot to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of many Northerners by coming out as a vehement and open opponent of secession at the end... AnonMoos 13:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:44, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't claim it was written during the Civil War; it says it was popular then. Nevertheless, I'll try to track the original source back down and make sure. — Brian ( talk ) 08:22, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Sound file
Isn't this PD? Someone should make a sound file. 138.237.165.140 15:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The song itself is PD, but recordings of it are copyright to the artist who recorded them or to other parties. The trick is to find one of those that has fallen into the public domain. Please let me know if you know of any! — Brian ( talk ) 08:06, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Discography
A discography of most famous recorded version would be welcome. Ericd 22:13, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * If you can find a third-party source that includes such information, that would be a good addition. What should be avoided is a cobbled-together I-remember-this-artist-sang-it kind of list. That would be unmaintainable and not useful. — Brian ( talk ) 08:07, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is already a huge discography. It's the second-last link at the bottom of the page, here it is again:
 * http://bruce.orel.ws/seegersessions/songs/old_dan_tucker.html
 * Ogg 08:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have just spotted that John Jacob Niles is described as "rock" on that web-page. If one man and a dulcimer qualifies as "rock" then you must have quite an imagination. Also, I vaguely think that Charles Ives did a version of "Old Dan Tucker" but I was unable to find it in "Grove's Dictionary".

Lyrics section need work
This section uses such words a "masculine", "boasting", "rawness", "disdain for social taboos" "animalistic", driven by sex, violence", "ugly", "unrefined", "unintelligent", "infantilized", etc., which are not in fact supported by the lyrics of the original. Here are the three variations as can be attributed to the original: BigDaddySheep (talk) 05:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure those words are supported. They are backed up by scholarly citations to modern works on the subject. You may not see those elements in the original lyrics, but according to our policies against original research, our own opinions do not count. — Dulcem (talk) 05:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That is to say that if you can find reliable sources that support a different interpretation of the song, we can add that information. Modern sources are of course preferable to ones that are very old. — Dulcem (talk) 05:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem is not the citations necessarily, but that they are not supported by the text to which they are appended. There is no way to tell if they are really relevent, or if they were just added to support someone's opinion.BigDaddySheep (talk) 05:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you elaborate on why you think the citations don't support the text to which they are appended? I think it's important to understand the song in the context in which it appeared. It was one of a number of "roarer" tunes popular in the period (other examples are "Gumbo Chaff" and "Jump Jim Crow") that feature a male protagonist boasting about his abilities. It's the same broad genre that includes folktales about Davy Crockett. These were frontier figures who didn't care for the niceties of traditional middle-class American values.
 * At any rate, arguing whether or not the original lyrics support adjectives such as "masculine", "animalistic", and "unrefined" isn't the job of any editor on Wikipedia. Rather, it's our job to summarize the modern scholarship on the subject of the article, and the modern scholarship on "Old Dan Tucker" says that it is these things. The sources used to support the use of these terms are from historians and musicologists, experts in their fields. It's understandable that modern views of the song probably don't see these elements in it. That's because we have a different context now to view it in. But our own interpretations are not acceptable material for Wikipedia because they constitute original research.
 * I guess to sum up, the words you are objecting to are supported by current scholarship on the song. If you can find reliable sources that call these interpretations into doubt, we should of course include that information as well. If you personally disagree with the use words such as "masculine" and "animalistic", I'd urge you to consult the sources cited to read the full arguments on the topic. Early American popular culture is a fascinating subject! :) — Dulcem (talk) 23:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Odd variants
I learned it as "supper is over and dinner is cookin'." :)--Thecurran (talk) 03:49, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Scatological verses
My father once had an old record that claimed to be earthy verses from old songs, and claimed that Ol' Dan Tucker had had a number of "dirty" verses made up in the early days. I remember that one went:
 * Old Dan Tucker came into town,
 * Wavin' his thing up and down,
 * Said he was goin' to beat his pud,
 * 'Cause the pussy in that town warn't no damn good.

Proposed merge with Clar de Track
Parody version of song. Richhoncho (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason not, though I'm not even sure why there's an article for that song in the first place, nor why it deserves special mention; it's described as one of many parodies -- and that being the case, perhaps a paragraph about Dan Tucker parodies might be warranted, but still, what's special about this one? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106; &#x1D110;&#x1d107; 17:57, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

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WP:URFA/2020
I am reviewing this very old FA as part of WP:URFA/2020, an effort to determine whether old featured articles still meet the featured article criteria. A good portion of the article is lyrics, without modern interpretation or scholarship. Unless someone is able to update the article with newer sources, it should be submitted for Featured article review. Sandy Georgia (Talk)  03:44, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * There is some uncited text.
 * No recent scholarship has been incorporated (the sources date to the original FA version). From the many untapped articles at google.scholar come for example:
 * MUSIC, MINSTRELS, AND THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR: ENTERTAINMENT, IMAGINATION AND HISTORICAL INTERPRETATION (This essay begins with an examination of Dan Emmett's minstrel song 'Old Dan Tucker' (1843) as an entrée into American stereotypes about slaves and free blacks and the paradoxical interest Americans had about the African American community),
 * Whose "Dan Tucker"?, 1855 Negro Minstrelsy, Ancient and Modern (Putnams Monthly)
 * YS Nathanson - The Negro and His Folklore in Nineteenth-Century …, 2021 - degruyter.com … Was Dan Emmet lying when he claimed authorship of "Old Dan Tucker," or was Nathanson completely wrong when he proclaimed it authentic?
 * Blackface Nation: Race, Reform, and Identity in American Popular Music, 1812–1925 by Brian Roberts R Bechtold - Journal of the Early Republic, 2019 - muse.jhu.edu … Hutchinson drew, or rather stole, his tune from a blackface song—Dan Emmett’s catchy “Old Dan Tucker.”
 * and more, including from google books.
 * There is no mention of Springsteen, Pete Seeger, others.


 * Almost a year has passed, yet almost nothing you addressed has yet been fixed. Shall you or I take this to FAR? George Ho (talk) 06:51, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * each editor is restricted to one nomination per week, and a maximum of five nominations at a time on the page; I am perennially at my limit. Also, I have pending travel, so perhaps you can bring this one to WP:FAR?  Anything listed at WP:FARGIVEN can be brought by any editor if work has not progressed within about three weeks, and we need all the help we can get at FAR! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  14:47, 10 October 2022 (UTC)