Talk:Ong Kean Swan

Prior Afd
At the close of the prior Afd, NawlinWiki said ''Although I agree with Bejnar that an article should be written about Mr. Ong as a scam artist, the current copy is all self-promotion and arguably misleading. Anyone should feel free to start a neutral article.'' So I have created what I hope is such an NPOV artice. --Bejnar (talk) 23:26, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I am a staff in surewin4u. I am very sorry to say that i am not understand the rule for posting regarding wikipedia.And i delete it becuase what it state is not correct. We are not teaching people how to gambling, but we share with people dont gamble, and become a non-gambler. What is non-gambling? that is involve in gambling business but dont gambling yourself. It is a beautiful concept,but it may need long time to make people understand well. So we organize course, ask people dont gambling.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win2014060.html This is the Oficial website of Ong Kean Swan, surewin4u. He do the official declaration on his website. And for more than 2 years time, Ong contribute to Charity and Society, not only start now, but for past few years till now.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win000.htm Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2013.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win0000.html Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2014.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win26.html Surewin4u courses in Singapore, more than 2500 people attend.

http://realstorymy.blogspot.com/ Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

http://surewin4u.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-start_9.html Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

It is hope that wikipedia take serious reconsider to put down the article that may harm Ong Company, thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surewin4u (talk • contribs) 11:50, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Arrest
There are three reliable web sites, two of which are newspapers, that reported the arrest, two of them have photographs showing the arrest. The arrest is not a rumor. --Bejnar (talk) 01:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

HI, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR PUTTING UP DATO SRI DR ONG LETTER PROVIDE BY GOVERMENT. ANY WAY, CAN YOU PUT DOWN THE TENGKU MENYAMAR AND MELILEA COURT CASE LINK? WE CAN PROVIDE YOU THE COURT JUDGMENT- THE FINAL RESULT SHOW THAT WE WON BOTH CASE AND NO CASE AT ALL RIGHT NOW. CAN U PROVIDE ME YOUR EMAIL? WE JUST CANNOT SHOW TO PUBLIC BECAUSE IT IS REGARDING MALAYSIA TWO PALANCE ISUE WITHIN PERAK AND JOHOR,PLEASE PROVIDE ME YOUR EMAIL, THEN I WILL SEND U THE PROVE,TQ:)

AND, THERE ARE SOME CORRECTION: DATO SRI ONG INVOLVE IN MELILEA 2003, NOT 2007. DATO SRI DR ONG KEAN SWAN BORN IN 1982, NOT 1983.

AGAIN, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR UNDERSTANDING AND FAIR JUDGEMENT,THANKS!^_^ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.3.109.195 (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

REGARDING THIS, I HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO PROVE CLEAN NAME OF MY BOSS, BUT IT IS VERY P&C, ANYWAY I CAN PM TO U OR EMAIL TO U?:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surewin4u (talk • contribs) 12:11, 7 June 2014 (UTC) The offical letter from Ministry of Foreign Affairs Malaysia should be much more reliable than newspapers. It would not be fair to Swan regarding the mis-leading news which contradict with the letter, even the news from newspaper may not be 100% reliable. --Garydog (Garydog)  — Preceding undated comment added 02:26, 7 June 2014 (UTC)
 * To sign a message on a talk page type four tildes ( ~ ); this will automatically insert your username and the date. --Bejnar (talk) 02:31, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The certificate does not indicate whether an arrest for a misdemeanor would show up. Does it only include convictions? --Bejnar (talk) 02:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

The certificate should prove that "they are free from any criminal record " which should include misdemeanor & convictions. http://www.kln.gov.my/web/qat_doha/other_information/-/asset_publisher/2TQe/content/other-services?redirect=%2Fweb%2Fqat_doha%2Fother_information Garydog (talk) 01:12, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

About the arrest news, it is misunderstanding, and now Dato Sri Ong Kean Swan get back his clean name by the certifed of Malaysia government.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win2014060.html This is the Oficial website of Ong Kean Swan, surewin4u. He do the official declaration on his website. And for more than 2 years time, Ong contribute to Charity and Society, not only start now, but for past few years till now.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win000.htm Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2013.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win0000.html Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2014.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win26.html Surewin4u courses in Singapore, more than 2500 people attend.

http://realstorymy.blogspot.com/ Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

http://surewin4u.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-start_9.html Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

It is hope that wikipedia take serious reconsider to put down the article that may harm Ong Company, thank you very much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surewin4u (talk • contribs) 11:53, 7 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Here is an additional newspaper account of the arrest. --Bejnar (talk) 22:50, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Promotional
The prior article on Ong Kean Swan was deleted beacause it was blatant promotionalism. You do not want to make this article the least bit POV on the biographee. The certificate shown has some balancing, but much of that is taken away by the fact that it is a document sourced only from the biographee. --Bejnar (talk) 02:29, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

I am a staff in surewin4u. I am very sorry to say that i am not understand the rule for posting regarding wikipedia.And i delete it becuase what it state is not correct. We are not teaching people how to gambling, but we share with people dont gamble, and become a non-gambler. What is non-gambling? that is involve in gambling business but dont gambling yourself. It is a beautiful concept,but it may need long time to make people understand well. So we organize course, ask people dont gambling.

The certificate is officially issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Malaysia Government to guy personally rather than public, how Malaysia Government announced this for a person only in public?Garydog (talk) 01:21, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Hopefully Wikipedia wont harm Ong Good Reputation, becuase the link you provide in wikipedia actually fall into two type:

1) Old news

For the old news, certificate that OFFICIALLY issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of MALAYSIA GOVERNMENT on MAY 2014 prove one point, all the court case Ong may face, but at last Ong is at the Wining side! Even we can provide u the COURT JUDGMENT if you want, but i can only email u personally, bcoz it is related with the palace of Malaysia, it is very sensitive and not suitable to make public annoucement. So, please put up our letter provide by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Malaysia Government, or else it will cause missleading and unfair to Ong, right?

2) Rumours

Bcoz Ong business is so good, so his competitor try to tarnish Ong good reputation to affect Ong business. But you can see, who is spreading this rumours?

http://blog.sina.com.cn/yapcheat

http://features.insing.com/feature/police-reports-lodged-against-gambling-workshop/id-4d393f00/

This two link provide evidence include police report loadge by his student and also SINGAPORE news paper! (WE HAVE ALL THE EVIDENCE PROVE HE IS A SCAMMER, AND YAP CANNOT PROVE HE IS NOT; A LOT OF COMPETITOR SAY ONG IS A SCAMMER, BUT HE CAN PROVE HE IS NOT,AND ALL PROVE BY SOLID EVIDENCE, NOT BY WHO SAY, THIS IS THE BIG BIG DIFFERENT!) Within a news spread by a SCAMMER and the letter provide by GOVERNEMNT, i know Wikipedia will make a WISE CHOICE:) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.3.109.195 (talk) 06:09, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The certificate is officially issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Malaysia Government certified ONG NO ADVERSE RECORD, this is a special terms use by imigration department, to prove that dont have any BAD RECORD and DONT HAVE CRIMINAL RECORD, please check through imigration department and encyclopedia online and definately you will get it...

SO, HOPEFULLY WIKIPEDIA WILL:

1)Put down the old news and rumours, there are no evidence and is OLD NEWS or rumours as i explain before;

2)PUT UP OUR LETTER AS SOON, that is the official letter CURRENTLY provide by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Malaysia Government as i esplain before too,thank you very much.:)

http://www.surewin4u.com/win2014060.html This is the Oficial website of Ong Kean Swan, surewin4u. He do the official declaration on his website. And for more than 2 years time, Ong contribute to Charity and Society, not only start now, but for past few years till now.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win000.htm Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2013.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win0000.html Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2014.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win26.html Surewin4u courses in Singapore, more than 2500 people attend.

http://realstorymy.blogspot.com/ Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

http://surewin4u.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-start_9.html Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.


 * Please be advised that blogs are not usually considered reliable sources, and that the surewin4u.com website is not independent from Ong Kean Swan. Sources need to be reliable and independent when there is controversy about facts.  See Identifying reliable sources and for an explanation of independence see Independent sources.  Please also read Verifiability and Biographies of living persons. --Bejnar (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

It is hope that wikipedia take serious reconsider to put down the article that may harm Ong Company, thank you very much.

Hopefully Wikipedia take — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surewin4u (talk • contribs) 11:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)


 * I understand that if it is a "sure win" you do not consider it gambling, because gambling implies risk. --Bejnar (talk) 23:00, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Bejnar. I absolutely see your point dated 7 June 2014 : Gambling is definitely implies risk. But please note the below: 1)	Surewin – is a brand name only 2)	The system is 99.8% win rate and implies 0.2% risk. All attendee aware of this. 3)	As sharing in the official website under tab “System” (reference link 1), surewin4u is a non gambling business. In view of above, some amendment was made regarding his profile and the business he runs. Garydog (talk) 15:59, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Bejnar, I absolutely agree that your point dated 7 June 2014–Sources need to be reliable and independent when there is controversy about facts: In view of above, I removed the reference link 2 from Baccarat Institution because : 1)	It is a blog written by the Competitor Company – Baccarat Institution 2)	There’s conflict of interest so it is not reliable 3)     Might due to hate campaign from the competitor so it is not independent Garydog (talk) 14:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Allegations of fraud
Sorry I'm not well versed on how to edit Wikipedia articled. I just want to post this update article here for consideration. It is in Mandarin but it's related to the recent bust of SureWin4U in Taiwan.

http://www.appledaily.com.tw/realtimenews/article/new/20140910/467040 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.54.93.138 (talk) 03:24, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That Apple Daily article, archived here, deals with the Taiwanese branch of Dream Success International, which was run by 陳靖騰 (Chen Jing Teng). The China Times story of 12 September 2014, here, gives more detail and expressly provides the link with Ong Kean Swan (王梓驊), to whom Chen sent money. The China times article also makes clear that it was a Ponzi scheme (暴利 好賺幫吸金集團拉下線). --Bejnar (talk) 15:47, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The follow-on story in the Apple Daily also provides the Ong Kean Swan connection, here, archived here, and a Yahoo news story here, archived here. --Bejnar (talk) 16:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

No legal actions have been reported to have been taken against Ong Kean Swan because of fraud. However, there are a number of people who have alleged fraud, including his business competitor baccarate Inc. --Bejnar (talk) 01:32, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

SSM's website lists one conviction here. http://www.ssm.com.my/en/press-release/another-director-island-red-caf%C3%A9-franchise-sdn-bhd-pleaded-guilty-defrauding-investors. SSM is the Malaysian registrar of companies, a statutory body formed under an act of parliament. Though operating from a .com, it is part of a ministry of the federal government of Malaysia. --Erqua (talk) 20:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

This is the Biography of Ong Kean Suan not Ong Tong Suan. Furthermore, SSM website listed Conviction for Ong Tong Suan only. Garydog (talk) 22:44, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

For the old news, certificate that OFFICIALLY issued by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of MALAYSIA GOVERNMENT on MAY 2014 prove one point, all the court case Ong may face, but at last Ong is at the Wining side! Even we can PROVIDE U the COURT JUDGMENT if you want, but i can only email u personally, bcoz it is related with the palace of Malaysia, it is very sensitive and not suitable to make public annoucement. So, please put up our letter provide by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Malaysia Government, or else it will cause missleading and unfair to Ong, right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.3.109.195 (talk) 06:13, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Dear, all we talk base on facts and evidence. http://blog.sina.com.cn/yapcheat this is the site show baccarat institute story. Support by the police report, and the victim.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win2014060.html This is the Oficial website of Ong Kean Swan, surewin4u. He do the official declaration on his website. And for more than 2 years time, Ong contribute to Charity and Society, not only start now, but for past few years till now.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win000.htm Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2013.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win0000.html Here is some magazine and papercutting related with Ong, 2014.

http://www.surewin4u.com/win26.html Surewin4u courses in Singapore, more than 2500 people attend.

http://realstorymy.blogspot.com/ Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

http://surewin4u.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/the-start_9.html Some top rank site when search the keyword "Ong Kean Swan", wrote by the member.

It is hope that wikipedia take serious reconsider to put down the article that may harm Ong Company, thank you very much. Hopefully Wikipedia take — Preceding unsigned comment added by Surewin4u (talk • contribs) 11:34, 7 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Please see my comment of 7 June 2014 under /*Promotional*/ above as to why these sources that Surewin4u presented are not appropriate. --Bejnar (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

His business competitor baccarate Inc. are even complained by a number of people. And how come we trust a company stating his competitor? I don't know it's reliable at all. http://features.insing.com/feature/police-reports-lodged-against-gambling-workshop/id-4d393f00/ Garydog (talk) 01:29, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Dr
Is there an independent source for Ong having a PhD? The University of Nottingham does not list him. --Bejnar (talk) 22:03, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Biography of Living Person
Dear Bejnar,

Thanks for your contribution for updating the biographies. Just a gentle reminder that editors must take particular care when adding information about living person: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP

Regarding the lawsuit of Tengku 1)	A person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until proven guilty and convicted by a court of law. For people who are relatively unknown, editors must give serious consideration to not including material in any article suggesting that the person has committed. 2)	No conviction record was found from the reference link and he has pleaded not guilty, he is presumed innocent. As such, the link has been removed.

Regarding the lawsuit of Melilea 1)	A person should be presumed innocent until proven guilty. 2)	If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. (There’s only one source not multiple source) 3)	Malaysia has certified that he has no adverse record. 4)	Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care; in many jurisdictions, repeating a defamatory claim is actionable, and there are additional protections for subjects who are not public figures. In view of above, the link has been removed.
 * There are three sources for this information, FN1 FN2 and FN3.

Regarding Red Island Coffee franchise business 1)	His name is not appeared on the Guangming daily. 2)	Biographies of living persons ("BLP"s) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. 3)	As such, the link has been removed. Garydog (talk) 16:29, 10 June 2014 (UTC)


 * No, his name does not appear in the Guangming Daily article, that article provides context, it appears in the news release of the Suruhanjaya Syarikat Malaysia (SSM), and in the article in Kosmos. See photo. --Bejnar (talk) 21:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

1)	His name is not appeared on the Guangming daily. (Please read thoroughly, I cannot find his name) 2)	This is the Biography of Ong Kean Swan not Ong Tong Swan. Furthermore, SSM website listed Conviction for Ong Tong Swan only. Garydog (talk) 22:41, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Ong Tong Swan is Philip Ong, Peter's brother. --Bejnar (talk) 01:52, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Insurance
The insurance business that Peter Ong was involved with together with his brother was MLB Resources. Gibraltar BSN news release 6 October 2009. --Bejnar (talk) 16:30, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Confidence tricksters
I have listed the biographee in Category:Confidence tricksters. This listing is based upon the large number of news articles that followed the collapse of the Taiwan "surewin" scheme, and the identification of Ong's activities as Ponzi schemes. --Bejnar (talk) 18:00, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

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 * Certification from Malaysia Government - No Adverse Record.jpg

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion
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