Talk:Ordnung

All right then
I say this page should be added to and made [into] a full article! How exciting! Unfortunately I know almost nothing about the Amish. In any case, the wording at present is less than great. Russia Moore 23:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)



This article should be kept as a separate item from the Amish article. I agree with the above user. Personally, I'm not good at presenting this selection into good wording. I would like to see someone re-structure this item into a better edited piece.Rabbit Runner 14:04, 20 April, 2007



Understanding the Ordnung is vital to understanding the Amish. The two articles should be merged!!!

(Alexander Seymour - author of Beyond the International Gilded Age) Summer '07

I'm willing to consider the possibility of merging this topic with the Amish article provided that a topic header be left under this title and points to the section of the Ordnung where this article is merged with the Amish.Rabbit Runner —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:11, 14 October 2007 (UTC)



I'll take a stab at some editing. I've been doing related research lately. If this article is expanded to discuss the Dortrecht and Schleitheim Confessions and how they have influenced Ordnung then I think it might have details beyond what would be appropriate just in the general Amish article. Owlmonkey 09:00, 16 October 2007 (UTC)



Thanks JonHarder, for that edit. I'm not versed in formatting or editing informational data. Rabbit Runner - Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music. (talk) 15:04, 24 December 2007 (UTC)



This article reads a lot like it was the a major (yet rather unspecific) part of the Amish article, not an in-depth view into a particular aspect of Amish society. It's also fairly redundant (both within itself and compared to the Amish article), repetitive, etc. Almost every paragraph of the Amish article also links to this, so there's even overly redundant *linking*. I'm all for merging. Luckz (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Owlmonkey
I've done a bit of checking on the Dordrecht and Schleitheim Confessions and I question whether they would be part of, or relate to, the Amish Ordnung. The Ordnung is not a system of their beliefs, but rather a means or method to order the Amish way of living. From my understanding, their beliefs are not included in the Ordnung. Rabbit Runner Those who dance, appear insane to those who do not hear the music. (talk) 02:42, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting perspective. Thank you for adding that comment. I did find one scholar who felt that the confessions greatly influenced the ordnung but i haven't had time yet to do more research and frame it. I think the point was not that the Ornung is an implementation of the belief systems from the confessions but the confessions laid a foundation that the ornung is consistent with and possibly that a social system like the ornung or aspects of it were supported by or made possible by the declarations of the confessions. But perhaps that's really too specific, it's trying to draw a line from the culture to the beliefs but doing so specifically by going to the confessions as the source of the culture and ignoring that the ornung might have developed organically in any community independent of the beliefs. Whenever I get back to that research I'll keep that in mind and see if there's something specific and useful that might be worth adding - but I'll be careful not to draw any wide and erroneous conclusions. Thanks for the caution. - Owlmonkey (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Dorfner
Under the "Type" section of this Ordnung article, it states "To an outsider the Ordnung may appear as laws of suppression. However, the person who has learned to live within a respectful church Ordnung appreciates the value of freedom of heart, peace of mind, and clear conscience. Such a person actually has more freedom, more liberty, and more privilege than those on the outside." Has there been a qualitative psychological study on this? If so, where are the results cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorfner (talk • contribs) 21:50, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Inconsistencies
I've had to use the template inconsistent twice ( see here). The article says that "No science or music" is taught, but then goes on to say "Some basic science may be taught...". Which is it? — Fly by Night  ( talk )  11:15, 12 September 2010 (UTC)


 * After reading the Ohio State University Fact Sheet, I removed the unsourced and inconsistent statement that "No science or music" is taught. — Fly by Night  ( talk )  11:23, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree this has lots of POV issues. Tagging. Firestar464 (talk) 11:55, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

It's an apology
The article is written like an apology for that Ordnung. An example:
 * Such a person has more freedom, more liberty, and more privilege than those outside the church.

Says who? The Amish believes so. Then there should be an "according to the Amish, such a person..." etc.. And there should be references to the Amish themselves, otherwise I'll suspect that it is the usual (for religious articles here on Wikipedia) street-preachers sermon. Rursus dixit. ( m bork3 !) 20:49, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I tried to NPOV it up a little but since English is only my second language I'd like to leave it to others to finish that job. Just putting the most POV parts in subjunctive should make it a lot better already without having to source or debate a lot.

--82.83.89.20 (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Etymology and Distinction?
"Ordnung" is the German word for "Order." When officers in the Bundeswehr or Swiss Army give an order, it is "ein Ordnung." The word is not specific to the Amish system of belief. I am adding a short parenthetical note indicating as much. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.178.187.217 (talk) 15:49, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

That would be "ein Befehl" or "eine Anweisung". Ordnung means order more in the "law and order" sense, than in the "giving an order" sense. -- 82.83.89.20 (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

German instruction
Has anyone a source for the statement that Pennsylvania German is taught in Amish schools?

As far as I know, it is a slightly old-fashioned variety of Standard German that is taught, essentially the language of the Luther Bible, the Ausbund (their main hymnal) and other devotional books, of birth and marriage certificates, and other official uses for which English has not yet displaced the variety of Standard German called Pennsylvania High German. The main purpose of the German instruction in Amish schools is to enable the pupils to read (or sing) in the language; writing German, however, does get some attention.

The Amish generally do not write in Pennsylvania German (also known, especially perhaps to native speakers, as Pennsylvania Dutch). It is their home language. They come to school already knowing it, so there is no need for instruction.

Gambaguru (talk) 20:23, 2 October 2020 (UTC)


 * You would be correct. From my personal experience attending a one room Old Order Mennonite School (which work closely with Amish schools and are very similar in curriculum) we did not learn Pennsylvania German at school (in Lancaster County, PA), as it is generally not a written language (though there was a Bible translated recently), but we did study High German (since the Luther Bibel is used at church, as well as German hymnals (e.g., the "Ausbund".)) I don't have any references handy, but I'm sure Donald Kraybill covers it in one of his books about the Amish. If I find a reference in the books I have access to, I will try to update this message accordingly. MennoniteMTBer (talk) 16:30, 5 October 2020 (UTC)