Talk:Origin of the Kurds

[Untitled]
as usual with "ethnic origin" stuff, the topic has been extensively WP:BOMBARDed. It's useful to have all this literature as a starting point for further editorial work, but it certainly cluttered up the main Kurds article. So hopefully it can develop here without too much spillover to other topics. --dab (𒁳) 18:18, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Reviewing this, I think it is important to cleanly separate
 * the ethnogenesis of the Kurdish group as distinct from other Northwest Iranian ones, i.e. as distinct from Balochi and Talysh, let alone Lurs. This happened around the 16th century
 * speculation on possible contributions of various ancient and medieval tribes and peoples to Kurdish ancestry. This is open-ended and reaches as far as records go (Bronze Age), and beyond into genetics and early human settlement of West Asia.

Note that the question of the name is again distinct; if the Carduchi are among the ancestors of both Talysh and Kurds, but the Talysh are not Kurds, then the Kurds cannot claim the Carduchi as their exclusive forebears even if they inherit their name. Ethnogenesis would then take place around the process separating the Talysh from the Kurds, and both groups would develop out of a predecessor group around that time.

Nothing precise can be said about the time-frame, of course. Paul in Encyclopedia Iranica does give a responsible sketch when he says that West Iranian was still a coherent group in the Old Iranian period, and Northwest Iranian would have been coherent during the Middle Iranian period. Any development of groups within Northwest Iranian would take place in the New Iranian period, i.e. during the 10th century onward. Developments that concern the common ancestors of all Northwestern Iranians are more sensibly treated in an article about West or Northwest Iranians, and not in an article on a selected ethnicity within Northwestern Iranian --dab (𒁳) 15:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

censorship and falsification by pro kurdish editors
just see at semsuris history of edits that how he removed well sourced info and distortion the sentences, he and other pro kurdish editors removed sources about median language and central iranian dialects connection, removed and censored  info about zaza_gorani languages and ethnic background of them; removed and censored the well sourced info about the location of the proto kurds and where the contemporary Kurdish dialects was formed.censore strong elements of SW iranian languages in kurdish dialects and shockingly how they misreport the van Bruinessens view on kurdish_median connection and CENSORE G.asatrians viewpoint. i hope someone watch these vandalism @historyofiran Frederichchopin (talk) 02:35, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

historyofiran Frederichchopin (talk) 02:52, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

HistoryofIran Frederichchopin (talk) 02:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@[ [ user : HistoryofIran | HistoryofIran ] ] Frederichchopin (talk) 02:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran Frederichchopin (talk) 02:58, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

The terms Qardu and Kar-da
The source given in this article is referencing Godfrey Rolles Driver and it says, "It is not unlikely that the earliest trace of the Kurds is to be found on a Sumerian clay-tablet, of the third millennium b.c on which "the land of Kar-da"or "Qar-da" is mentioned." It is an old source and does not go in to detail or explain how he came to the conclusion that it is referring to the Kurds of today. The book Sophene, Gordyene, and Adiabene: Three Regna Minora of Northern Mesopotamia Between East and West by Michał Marciak explains on pages 220 and 221; "It is frequently stated that Gordyene was “an apparently Kurdish or protoKurdish state,” and that its population were ancestors of the modern Kurds. However, this identification, which is apparently based on the similarity of the names of the two peoples, the Καρδοῦχοι and the Kurds (as well as on a very partial overlap of the inhabited territories), is rejected by many scholars on linguistic grounds. In terms of linguistic connections, the ancient root in question is Qardū (in Καρδοῦ-χοι, Cordu-eni, Cordu-ena, Γορδυ-ηνή, Γορδυ-αία, Γορδυ-αῖοι) and it is not akin to the root Kurd-. At the same time, the root Kurd- appears to correspond to the root Kurt. Therefore, if any ancient people could be suggested as possible ancestors of the Kurds, they are the Κύρτιοι (the Greek Κύρτιοι attested in Polyb. 5.52.5 and Strabo Geog. 11.13.3, 15.3.1, and the Latin Cyrtii or Cyrtaei known from Liv., 37.40.9 and 42.58.13). The Κύρτιοι were a warlike nomadic people living in the Zagros Mountains who appear in sources as mercenary slingers—in the service of the Median governor, Molon against Antiochos III, but with Antiochos III against the Romans at Magnesia in 190 BCE, and again hired by Eumenes II, king of Pergamon at Kallinikos (171 BCE). However, it appears that the name was applied to early-medieval Kurdish tribes not as an ethnic term but a social designation of nomadic way of life."

On page 216 and 217 it says; "Although in referring to the conquests of Tigranes II the Great, both Strabo (Geog. 16.1.24) and Plutarch (Plutarch, Luc. 21–36, Pomp. 30–36;) made it clear that the Gordyaeans were distinct from the Armenians, Armenian sources picture Gordyene as part of the fourth-century-CE Great Armenian Commonwealth in political, cultural, and religious terms. In particular, rulers of Korduk‘ are presented as taking part in Pan-Armenian national events under (more de iure than de facto) supervision of the Armenian kings (e.g. BP 3.9; 4.50). Likewise, Korduk‘ is depicted as the scene of missionary activity of several well-known religious figures traditionally seen as the Armenian national saints, patriarchs Gregory the Illuminator (Aa 842), Šałita, and Epip‘an (BP 3.14). At same time, Gordyene is prominently present in the Syriac world. First, Gordyene comes to the fore in the Syriac Bible as the home to the landing site of Noah’s ark. Second, numerous acts of ecclesiastical councils composed in Greek shows that the diocese of Beth Qardū (Gordyene) together with the dioceses of Beth Arzun (Arzanene), Beth Zabdai (Zabdikene), Beth Raḥimai (Rehimene), and Beth Moksāyē (Moxoene) firmly belonged to SyriacNestorian Christianity with its main center in Nisibis. Third, Syriac sources referring to monastic life thriving in Beth ‘Arbāyē clearly shows that it took place not only in the Ṭūr ʿAbdīn region (for which it is nowadays famous), but also in the mountains of Qardū (Gordyene) and Arzun (Arzanene). All in all, it appears that the land of the Karduchoi presented by Xenophon in the fifth century BCE as a political and cultural enclave came under the influence of two main cultural influences, from Armenia in the north and from the Mesopotamian plain in the south. In terms of pure numbers, it appears that Gordyene’s connection with Mesopotamian cultures was stronger. This conclusion also appears firmer if we take account of the exaggerating tendencies of the Armenian sources to see the Transtigritanae regiones as part of the Armenian commonwealth."

Also, Karda was a social term. The etymology of Karda is warrior, or gallantry. It was not used to describe an ethnic group. It was also used to refer to animals in Assyrian folklore. Here is a paper that explains this on page 169: https://www.academia.edu/66370273/Qardo_and_the_Mountain_of_K%C4%93will%C4%81_Noah_s_Ark_and_its_Landing_Place_in_Assyrian_Syriac_Texts_And_Folklore

--TukultīApilEšarra (talk) 23:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

Removal of sourced information
Can you give explain why we should one specific bit of one of the many legends about the Kurds' background? Basically saying "I don't like it" is not a good reason, see WP:JDLI. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:13, 24 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The legend does not explain the origins of the Kurds. If someone told you that your origins are some strange fairy, would you agree? The story is a demeaning story of the Kurds, not a legend explaining the origins of the Kurds. Acaunto (talk) 23:17, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The legend has already been mentioned in other documents. Is there a reason why it should exist in this document? Also, the content does not have a primary source. It's not even a legend of Kurdish origins, it's just a strange story that popped up out of nowhere. If it indicates a Kurdish origin, it should have been present several times in other sources. Acaunto (talk) 23:20, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * There is no primary source for this story. It does not appear in other ancient documents. I don't think this can properly explain the origins of the Kurds. Acaunto (talk) 23:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "Other documents"? And what rule says that it has be in other ancient documents? Kurds didn't even exist as an ethnic group in ancient times. And how does that justify removing it from an article literally made for this kind of stuff? I don't care if someone told me whatever, it has nothing to do with this. This article is full of legends, but this specific one has to be removed because it hurts your feelings? So only positive, "cool" stuff is allowed to be in here? Also, when are you reporting me? I'm waiting eagerly. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:23, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * do you want to discuss with me Or do you want to fight? Acaunto (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The Kurds are a people who have existed since ancient times. Many ancient documents contain information about the Kurds. What you're doing right now is nothing but fighting me. Acaunto (talk) 23:25, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You don't know anything about the Kurds, seeing as they say they didn't exist in ancient times. Show proof that the legend explains the Kurdish origins. Acaunto (talk) 23:28, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * In order to know whether the content is true or not, cross-validation with other literature is required. So, primary data is very important. Do you understand this? Acaunto (talk) 23:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You keep making claims with no WP:RS. And please don't play the victim here - right off the bat you were making (empty) threats of reporting me and calling Iskandar323 a sock. Treat others how you want to be treated. Unlike you I mean what I say; if you cant give a proper explanation based on our guidelines on why the information should be removed or at least revert yourself, then I will report you WP:ANI. Ans show proof for what? No offense, but it's basic English. If you can't understand that the legend is narrating the origin of the Kurds (it's obviously not authentic, just like the other legends in the article..), then that's a WP:CIR issue. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:29, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You also made comments that attacked me, so you should be reported as well. Acaunto (talk) 23:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * And I say again; report me then. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:34, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no intention of reporting it yet, and I was angry and said the wrong thing due to the editorial dispute. I have no intention of reporting you. sorry. Acaunto (talk) 23:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You claim that I am deleting it because I just hate it.You have no right to misunderstand and attack me.If that's the case, aren't you also causing an editorial dispute because you like content that demeans these Kurds? Acaunto (talk) 23:32, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You are literally contradicting yourself. It's not "demeaning", it's just a random legend, like the others. It's not that serious. Is Wikipedia only allowed to display legends of Kurds that you like? --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:33, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I apologize for getting excited all of a sudden. But why do you just revert my edits? Am I not allowed to use Wikipedia? Your actions make me feel that way. All my contributions go back and I don't want to spend my time here fighting editorial disputes. Acaunto (talk) 23:36, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I've seen the Wikipedia policy say to be nice to newcomers. In my opinion, the content is degrading to the Kurds and is not found in other ancient documents. So I don't think it's suitable for that document. My thoughts are firm, but what are you going to do? Are you going to keep fighting me like this? Acaunto (talk) 23:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Oh please, stop playing the victim. You're not even a newcomer either, and be nice yourself to start with. Since you said that you would revert your edit, please do it. I also just noticed that you violated WP:3RR. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:39, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You should also be reported. Acaunto (talk) 23:41, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have very little editing history, so I'm like a newbie. Don't attack others and fight editorial disputes with your narrow-mindedness. you look so pathetic Acaunto (talk) 23:43, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * You recklessly cause editorial disputes with others just because you've been active here for a long time, and because you can't win in discussions, you easily report others and you're a really funny person. Acaunto (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I've given you enough WP:ROPE. It's clear that you are more interested in talking about me than the subject at hand. I'm reporting you for violating WP:3RR. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Citing Godfrey Rolles Driver.
Godfrey Rolles Driver have been cited several times in the article including in the intro. It appears that the scholar isn’t specialized in that topic in the first place, his specialization is in Semetic languages and Assyriology, not in kurdish history or iranology in the first place. I don’t think he is a relevant source and support the removal of his content from the article. But i am not sure about that, so does anyone agree or disagree with this ? Turkishmanship (talk) 22:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)


 * whilst user may be blocked I might as well add a response.
 * The argument that he wasn’t a “specialist” in origins of Kurds doesn’t devalue his research at all, he is an extremely credited researcher/professor and his area of study (Mesopotamia) would in due part overlap with Kurdish antiquity, you don’t have to be a kurdologist to link names together, you can also be a “kurdologist” and devalue the Kurds (see G.Asatrian, currently accredited but the future may introduce a critique of him).
 * The only argument you have is that since he’s not a Kurdish historian, he can’t be credible, which as explained above with plenty of other explanations available, you do not need to be one. Volkish Kurden (talk) 00:52, 22 June 2023 (UTC)