Talk:Osama bin Laden/Archive 9

Trained by CIA?
Regarding all that "trained by CIA" stuff, it seems it's a myth: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9998

Dated November 3, 2003 by User:12.233.88.41


 * Regarding that article, it seems to be a load of hooey, for the following reasons:
 * It fails to mention the ISI, which was the major conduit of both CIA and Saudi funds, and definitely was involved in recruiting jihadis from around the world.
 * The ISI sent a significant portion of their money to MAK, which everyone agrees bin Laden was in charge of. So, yes, the CIA was funding him, although not directly.
 * The CIA was in deep with the jihadis; they produced fundamentalist textbooks for "education" in Afghanistan (which were later denounced as reprehensible when the Taliban was overthrown - how ironic), broadcast jihadi messages on their radio services, and provided training for foreign fighters at their Camp Peary.
 * So, yes, maybe bin Laden never got a CIA check, and maybe he never had contact with the CIA, but, to quote Bearden: "Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did."
 * In other words, yes, bin Laden had plenty of CIA support, tacit though it was. There weren't two parallel efforts, with CIA money going only to home-grown Afghan boys. Graft 19:17, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The Mujahedin was openly and materially supported by the CIA, although it was mainly through Pakistan's Inter-Agency-Intelligence (IAI) service. I have yet to see any evidence that any support was every given specifically to Osama bin Laden (which is the connotation). Many rumors are surface that the CIA supported the Taliban. Again, it goes back to U.S. support of the Mujahedin whose members later comprised both Northern Alliance and Taliban members. Pakistan's IAI was the agency that made most contacts and did most of the work as a proxy for the CIA. It was later Pakistan and Pakistan's IAI that directly supported the Taliban in the later overthrow of the post-Soviet Afghan government.

On a side note, the U.S. government has indeed thrown its support behind leaders who later became seen as oppressors or as having been responsible for atrocities. All governments do what they feel is in their own national interest and seldom, if ever, is there a choice between either supporting a good guy or a bad one. They are usually all bad to different degrees. In relations between sovereign states, the only real law is the law of mutual agreement and the law of the jungle. The only alternative to this, unfortunately, would be a one wold government. I am all ears, if there is another plausible solution to the problem.

Dated December 13, 2003 by User:Intellectus

news item
please incorporate this news item into this article. thanks! Kingturtle 08:29, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)


 * Very little to do with bin Laden.... Graft 14:59, 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

A photo of people with an anti bin laden T-Shirt
Does this picture, Image:Jhhj.jpg belong in this article? If not, where else can it go? I think that it might be a good idea to use it to show how Osama Bin Laden is viewed in North America.

BTW, User:JoeM originally posted that pic in his user page WhisperToMe 01:31, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

It should go in an article on the American perception of bin Laden; and don't forget that some Americans support bin Laden. Lirath Q. Pynnor December 4, 2003

Here is the article that I made that has the picture: United_States_perception_of_Osama_Bin_Laden. WhisperToMe 02:14, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

A bin laden photo in the Swedish article
There's an apparently doctored picture of Bin Laden serving doughnuts to Americans. Where does that pic belong on the English wikipedia? WhisperToMe 07:45, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Innocent Until Proven Guilty
As far as I know, no courts have convicted bin Laden of terrorist activity. Lirath Q. Pynnor Dated December 31, 2003

No court convicted Hitler of the Holocaust either. Encyclopaedias have to state what they believe to be facts. Do you seriously doubt that OBL did 9/11, or least funded and approved it? Adam 09:36, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I doubt Al-qaeda had anything to do with 9/11. As reported by Newsweek, the New York Times, TIME and the BBC; every "hijacker" associated with Al-qaeda has turned up in the mid-East (where they work as airline pilots), and they are suing the US for slandering them (by claiming they hijacked these planes). The US government is obviously lying about things, I see no reason to take their word that Al-qaeda is bad. Lirath Q. Pynnor Dated December 31, 2003

the term terrorist is POV
In the words of Ronald Reagan, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It just depends on whose side you're on. For the pros and cons of using the term terrorist, see Words to avoid. I think the term should be avoided. Kingturtle 21:09, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)