Talk:Paul Simon/Archive 2

Cleanup and Citations Needed
As I noted in adding the BLP tag, this article is about 4,000 words long and has just 14 citations. That's a minor problem compared to the one posed by the writing "style." I know that sounds harsh, but there are few instances where two half readable sentences run back to back and many where the the sentences seem to run on endlessly without any sense of narrative flow. Here are some random samples that typify what I mean:

<>

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<<Other songs, like the patriotic "American Tune" or the melancholic "Something So Right" – a tribute to Simon's first wife, Peggy – became standards on the musician's catalogue. Critical and commercial reception for this sophomore album were even stronger than there were for his debut. At the time, it was remarked how the songs were very fresh and unworried on the surface while they were exploring socially and politically councious themes on the deepest (particularly the dark cloud of the Watergate scandal involving the Richard Nixon administration.>>

<>

<<Then, Simon began to recording Hearts and Bones, a polished and confessional that was recognized with time as one of his best works, but that marked a lull in his commercial popularity during this era, at the point that the both the album and the lead single, "Allergies", missed the American Top 40. Hearts and Bones was particularly remarkable for its inclusion of "The Late Great Johnny Ace", a song partly about Johnny Ace, an American R&B singer, and partly about slain ex-Beatle John Lennon. With his solo career in the middle of a crisis, Simon lent his talents to USA for Africa and performed on the relief fundraising single "We Are the World".>>

<>

<<Simon is also one of the practitioners of a creative and distinctive fingerstyle guitar style in popular music. His instrumental proficiency (influenced by British guitarist Davey Graham as evidenced by his cover of Graham’s very difficult Anji from Sounds of Silence) has always been highly underrated and practically invisible as a guitarist. His Cole Porter-esque compositional abilities with his combination of jazz-tinged chords and seamless, romantic, poetic lyrics ranged throughout all his different songwriting styles.>>

With writing this bad, there's no point in either tracking down the required sources or trying to clean up the numerous personal assertions, typos and grammatical errors. A total rewrite seems to be the only solution. Allreet (talk) 07:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It not so much that it's bad writing, it's that it reads like liner notes. I wonder which website they ripped this off of? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:23, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Go to Google and enter "paul simon" "creative and distinctive fingerstyle guitar style", for example, and you get 3 pages of references, all of which seem to be wikipedia mirrors, so it's hard to know. It would be interesting to change that phrase, wait a day or two, and see if the previous version still shows up anywhere. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:29, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That particular item was inserted by  on October 10, 2008, along with probably a lot of the other stuff. His writing seems to be filled with opinions. Makes you wonder how this guy has been under the radar so long. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots 08:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

So- Bugs, what bug is up your furry tail? so condescending. "Under the radar"? Are are you like, the Wiki police!?!?!? or just a hall monitor- like school? Are you some kinda expert (see maven) about guitar playin'? And btw, "I wonder which website they ripped this off of?" Graceful Bugs, real Astaire. The only item here from me regards Simon's guitar proficiency- sorry, no website, no rip-off. In fact, the only thing here that's "under the radar", is Simon's guitar work (which is the primary point of the paragraph). If someone at WIKI is perhaps, well versed (npi) in Music, she/or he could explain the phrase "guitar proficiency" to The Wabbit, or just link him to a/v of Simon's display of it. As for 'creative and distinctive', give that rascally rodent a dictionary; but I'm going to clean this up, a little, just for you Bugs, you cross-dresser! Dcrasno (talk) 20:59, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

I "cleaned up" my above ref'd paragraph and someone changed it back the way it originally was. I shortened it a bit and cleaned up the grammar a bit. Anyone know why??Dcrasno (talk) 23:04, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * This article needs a great deal of work - Allreet is completely correct. I did a quick first pass at the first few sections, eliminating irrelevant side comments, tightening the language, removing POV commentary and lots of repetition, but these sections are by no means finished, and I haven't touched the rest yet. The writing in this article is awful - there's no point in pretending otherwise. Run-on sentences, lack of organization, virtually no references - this is an embarrassment.  I'm hopeful that other editors who have some knowledge of Simon and an ability to write clearly will join in the major edit this piece needs.  Tvoz / talk 08:38, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

United Nations Cultural Boycott
The Wikipedia article on Queen roundly condemns that band for violating the United Nations' cultural boycott in 1984 by performing in apartheid South Africa. Paul Simon also violated the U.N. boycott, and yet this controversy is completely ignored in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.65.102 (talk) 21:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Find reliable sources that specifically talk about Paul Simon in South Africa, and which characterize his work there as a UN boycott violation, and post them here on  Talk.  Then we can look for an appropriate place to put it, if it appears to be notable. Accusations like yours need to be well-sourced, not your own original synthesis of what you believe to be facts.  Tvoz / talk 08:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Information of relevance:
 * Other NYT articles related to the apartheid controversy are probably available, but I didn't search beyond the 1990s. Allreet (talk) 22:36, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Other NYT articles related to the apartheid controversy are probably available, but I didn't search beyond the 1990s. Allreet (talk) 22:36, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Two other sources of relevance:
 * I'm not sure about use of the latter of the two, not because it's a master's thesis, but because of the complexities it addresses. Good background nonetheless. Allreet (talk) 05:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about use of the latter of the two, not because it's a master's thesis, but because of the complexities it addresses. Good background nonetheless. Allreet (talk) 05:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about use of the latter of the two, not because it's a master's thesis, but because of the complexities it addresses. Good background nonetheless. Allreet (talk) 05:42, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Paul Simon never violated the UN Cultural Boycott on performing in South Africa and contemporary reports of him doing so were incorrect. Paul Simon has gone on record many times to point this out and any editor hoping to change the Wikipedia page on Paul Simon to indicate that he broke the boycott would be repeating this often mis-reported story. It is for this reason that in 1987, Paul Simon's name was removed from this register of artists who had violated the boycott after a letter from the artist explaining that he had been incorrectly placed on the list http://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/03/arts/paul-simon-removed-from-un-boycott-list.html


 * Simon was aware of the boycott and was advised before making the trip to South Africa that recording with South African musicians would not be a violation of the boycott. Paul Simon's work exposed the world to black South African musicians who were penalised by both the Apartheid regime and the UN boycott and should not be confused with the performances of bands such as Queen who performed to audiences in Sun City. In 1993, the ANC and Nelson Mandela invited Paul Simon to be the first Western musician to perform in a free South Africa. This was the first time that he performed in concert in the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.222.125.36 (talk) 09:04, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I would point interested parties to the 2011 documentary "Under African Skies", which chronicles the creation of Graceland. In that documentary, Paul talks about the boycott, his knowledge of it, and why he decided not to honor it. Peterlista (talk) 02:45, 27 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I slotted in one sentence about it. Clearly, from this Guardian article it created a degree of disquiet and should be mentioned. Combined with the documentary a balanced view should be given. I included the NYT reference to the fact that he briefly appeared on the list and was then taken off it. Karst (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

question
Why a sentence needed about how he performed at a house that was the location for the 21st birthday celebration of Libby January, girlfriend of Pink Floyd album cover designer Storm Thorgerson? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.119.55.4 (talk) 13:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It is gone now, along with a host of other irrelevant asides. Tvoz / talk 08:32, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Irrelevant?
 * I personally don't see why Simon being friends with Storm Thorgerson would be irrelevant. That sounds interesting to me.
 * Varlaam (talk) 22:26, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I just found it above. And it's the site for the Ummagumma photo? Fascinating.
 * Varlaam (talk)

Should his latest itunes release, "Questions For the Angels" be mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.59.203.174 (talk) 21:11, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Never interacted with wikipedia before, sorry if I'm not using propper protocol. But in the section on personal life it says Simon has four kids with Brickell, listing Harper (his son by his first wife Peggy Harper). I assume this is an error and he doesn't have two kids with the same name. The reference provided is a Today show photo which doesn't say anything about who the mother(s) of the kids are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.248.19.238 (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Berklee Board of Trustees
According to | Berklee College of Music's official site, Simon is a member of Berklee's Board of Trustees. I'm sure it deserves a mention but does anyone know what section it would belong in? Glassbreaker5791 (talk) 07:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd put it in "Philanthropy" and include the two scholarships in his name. Tvoz / talk 04:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Changes to the lead
I rewrote the lead paragraph, maintaining most of the original thoughts while adding sources for all statements except the opening sentence. I also added Simon's most notable awards and broke this into a separate paragraph. There are numerous reasons for the changes. Overall, the opening failed to mention the significance of the specific songs listed (assuming everyone knows them, I guess), said little of substance about Simon's first solo years, made no reference to his additional work (One Trick Pony and The Capeman), implied that he did nothing from 1976-85, and simplified the significance of Graceland, making a generalized statement about its influence on world music that I couldn't find a reference to support (though generally it's true). Furthermore, the only honor mentioned, the Time magazine 100 People list, pales when compared to his Grammys, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction, and the Library of Congress award. In addition, I've created a References section, with one reference and one related footnote to illustrate what I referred to in the previous talk section as a Notes-References approach.

The only issues missing in the lead are a general statement about his touring over the years, a brief acknowledgement of the reunions with Garfunkel, and a mention of his more recent albums, so it's clear that he's still active. These could be handled in a third paragraph to bring readers up to the present and which future editors can update. I know all of this is covered in what follows, but the lead should summarize as succinctly as possible the major highlights/milestones/issues of a career to give readers a complete and current overview. The rest of the article, then, fills in the details or rather, builds on the foundation laid out in the opening.

Similar changes need to be made to the rest of the article. Notable items should be given their due and less notable ones either removed or framed more appropriately. The style also should be improved in terms of tone and flow. In every case, references must be provided to support what's said. All this raises the bar in terms of difficulty, because as with the world music issue I mentioned above, considerable rewriting becomes necessary when existing material can't be confirmed. Furthermore, style changes often require a knowledge of the nuances to maintain accuracy, meaning simple revisions aren't always that simple. If anyone has objections to the changes I've made, feel free to revert as best you can, but please state your reasons on the talk page so that we can discuss how to handle whatever the issue may be. Thanks. Allreet (talk) 08:26, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Honors
Simon will be getting an honorary degree from Brandeis University this year. Does that deserve mention on this page at all? If so, where? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.64.212.51 (talk) 00:42, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Highly biased
This article is highly biased; read it over. There's not a sentence that isn't either praising or, where objective praise is impossible, apologist. Yes, I know Paul Simon's great. But Wikipedia must express that through the mouths of critics, notables, and public opinion, not in the meat of its prose. If no one else volunteers to clean it up, I will in the next week. Flipping Mackerel (talk) 05:10, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Still seems rather biased -- especially the "recent events" section.Ekips (talk) 22:46, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, I haven't yet read the whole article in detail, but I did read the recent events section and was surprised to see something so low-key. I've seen rockstar bios in Wikipedia that are obvious P.R. pieces, but this section wasn't like that.  Consider:  Paul Simon is extremely famous and accomplished, at about highest tier of popular music that you can possibly be.  He wins awards frequently, and has been on a career upswing in recent years both critically and commercially.  A neutral article will say all this.


 * Now, I'm pretty sure that "Surprise" didn't get universally positive reviews, and to the extent that's true, we can balance that out. Besides that, what is there?  What sources are we missing that are substantive?  What biographical details, if any, are we omitting (a scandal here, a messy divorce there)?  Does the article mention some of his tiffs with Garfunkel, e.g. erasing Art's vocals from the "Hearts and Bones" sessions?  And Los Lobos' allegation that he swiped their song for "Graceland"?  It should, because those things are real, and it's just a matter of finding the sources, not whether the sources exist.


 * But I don't think there's a whole lot else. He's human, and has had his share of problems and arguments, but on the whole he is famous and highly-regarded, and a good article will cite an array of sources and, in following those sources, faithfully convey that impression.  Same for, e.g., Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney.  Keith Richards, well, he's got a few skeletons, but his closet door is wide open; I've read his bio, and it's balanced while correctly conveying the fact that he is exceedingly famous and accomplished.  MrBellamy (talk) 06:24, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Farnworth Railway Station
Wasn't one of his songs actually composed at Farnworth Railway where they have a plaque to prove it? My source for this information is the Radio Times - not always the most accurate source, I know - but if any one else knows about this, it would be good if it could go in the article. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 19:15, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

He wrote 'homeward bound' on Widness railway station, as a plaque there attests — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.206.60.248 (talk) 20:21, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Simon actually wrote 'Homeward Bound' on Ditton Railway Station which was a small station on the outskirts of the town of Widnes. When Ditton Station closed the plaque was moved to Widnes Station. Rickedmo (talk) 01:58, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

"Jewish"
Does Simon have any known religious association? Jewish is an ethnic designation here. All of his spouses are Christian, are they not? An honour from Brandeis does not prove anything. Varlaam (talk) 22:29, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this is a "reliable source", but it at least gives a song reference worth checking out: Hearts and Bones. If he's born to Jewish parents and says in some lyric that he's Jewish, then it's reasonable to say he's Jewish. Plenty of Jews marry Christians, so that's no indicator. How strongly he identifies himself as Jewish could be a question. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:58, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * (I had a stroke and my memory is still recovering.)
 * I'm thinking he has some songs with a more overt Christian sensibility, but titles are not materializing in this injured head.
 * Then again, Irving Berlin wrote "White Christmas" for his wife, I think, so maybe Simon can also give his wife a nice present.
 * Varlaam (talk) 07:13, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And Barbra Streisand recorded "Ave Maria", so there's obviously no conclusions to be drawn by what artists choose to write or sing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 07:17, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not lying, but that's a really good point! His children are Christian, and his songs have Christian absence. He is from a Jewish family, but he may have been converted. I know that Garfunkel wasn't. All I know is that they are both God-blessed men. Benjamin908 (talk) 02:57, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Twin brother
Has Paul got a twin brother ? as it seems in this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN2sWrr6l80&feature=player_embedded#at=111

--Laurentleap (talk) 16:48, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Eddie, is his name should, be mentionned in this biography.

--Laurentleap (talk) 18:38, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Paul's younger brother, Eddie (b. 1945) is referred to briefly in the 2010 biography PAUL SIMON: A LIFE (published by John Wiley & Sons Inc.) on pages 10, 30, 142 & 179, written by Marc Eliot. There is a biography of Eddie at the website http://www.thedreamerofmusic.org. The 1969 Simon & Garfunkel documentary in which Eddie appears was shown on PBS on Sept. 18.

Prwhitmey (talk) 03:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Eddie is connected in some manner to Paul's publishing. There is a credit at the end of the "Old Friends" dvd to this effect.THX1136 (talk) 15:58, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Kathy Chitty merge

 * - Articles for deletion/Kathy Chitty (3rd nomination)

Hi, this BLP has been closed at AFD as merge to this BLP. I have redirected in and brought anything that has value here for discussion and likely/possible addition. Thanks. Off2riorob (talk) 21:18, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Kathy Chitty was Simon's girlfriend during 1964 and 1965 when he lived in London. She is referred to in four of his songs. In 1964 they visited the US together, touring mainly by bus. After returning to London Simon recorded the album The Paul Simon Songbook that included "Kathy's Song", and had a photo of Simon and Kathy on the cover.In September 1965, when Simon returned to the US and they split up. Paul Simon wrote "America" that mentions Chitty by name: Simon wrote "Homeward Bound" on the railway station at Widnes. It is also widely believed that this song is also about Chitty: In 1981 Simon included a nostalgic song called "The Late Great Johnny Ace" on his Hearts and Bones album that included a reference to Chitty, ''It was 1964. I was living in London with the girl from the summer before.''

thoughts/comments

 * Reading the AFD, to determine consensus, I noticed some folks mention BLP concerns and privacy issues. I dont know the background of those comments, but I think based on that we should limit the merge to only the most important information relevant to an encyclopedia.  Minimal merge.--v/r - TP 21:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. Looking at the article there is already a good piece of this detail in this section - Paul Simon - Off2riorob (talk) 21:29, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Kathy Chitty merge
I've included a paragraph regarding Ms Chitty in the "Personal life" section. Rickedmo (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Let me know when ya'all are satisfied and I'm going to delete Kathy Chitty and then redirect it back here. Never mind, I forgot that merges need attribution.--v/r - TP 13:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats cool if you guys are happy I or you can remove the merge template at the top of this talkpage - one thing, should the redirect now go th the personal life section instead of now it is to the early career section. see here - Off2riorob (talk) 13:41, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I think, on balance, the redirect should go to the "Personal life" section. That is because a fuller explanation can go there rather in the "Early career" section, so I have moved it. Rickedmo (talk) 22:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats great, this merge appears resolved (template removed) thanks for the assistance. Off2riorob (talk) 22:28, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Philanthropy
"However in 1971 Simon, as a jury-member of the Rio de Janeiro song contest, did not give any points to the 15-year-old Marianne Rosenberg, an ethnic Sinti (Gypsy) and child of an Auschwitz survivor, because she represented Germany.[41]" This single-sentence paragraph is undeniably scurrilous, presenting Simon as a deeply bigoted individual punishing a young girl solely for her nationality. Such a damning assertion in the bio should be bolstered by something more than the German language article referenced as footnote 41. The cited article claims that Simon himself declared his intent to give Rosenberg only one point (contra "did not give any points"), but fails to identify the person or people who heard his declaration. The statement is unattributed hearsay, far too unreliable to be included in the bio considering its disparaging nature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.222.252 (talk) 02:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed - and removed. Off2riorob (talk) 02:24, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

"Best known as.... part of Simon and Garfunkel..."
Is that part of the introduction still true? Yes, Simon and Garfunkel were massively popular, but I'm far from sure he is still "best known" for that period of his life. He has had a hugely successful solo career for over 40 years now, albeit with occasional reunions. I have a nagging sense that people who still harp on about his partnership in the 1960s are people who remember that time - which must be a diminishing proportion of both Paul Simon's fan base, and Wikipedia's readership. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I feel like this phrasing is best used when someone was well-known for one part of their career, but otherwise has had a considerably diminished profile, perhaps a small cult or obscurity. Whether or not S&G can objectively be called the "best known" part of Simon's career, it's not a good idea to use that phrase here because Simon is also quite famous as a solo artist.
 * Could replace "Simon is best known for his success in 1965 as ..." with something like "Simon first became well-known in 1965 as ...", or "Simon's career took off in 1965, as ...". / 173.59.4.215 (talk) 23:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm happy with either of those; it's hard to say whether he's best known in the duo or solo, so the article shouldn't side one way or the other. (Chorleypie (talk) 21:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC))
 * I'm trying this: "Simon first became internationally well known and successful, beginning in 1965, as part of the duo Simon & Garfunkel, with musical partner Art Garfunkel." He did not become "best known" (or "well known") for his "success" - the terms are essentially synonymous.  I think the word "international" is worth including here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Fixing Errors As An Official Source
I'm completely new to editing on wikipedia, but I've been asked by Eddie Simon, as an employee of Paul, to fix errors in Paul's bio. I'd like to start with the glaring errors like most of the information in this paragraph: "Born in Newark, New Jersey to Jewish immigrant parents from Hungary. His father, Louis (1916–1995), was a professional musician who played the bass, while his mother, Belle (1910–2007), was an elementary school teacher. Having also been trained as a musician, she gave private music lessons in her spare time. In Hungary, his father was a first violinist on the main Budapest radio station."

His parents were born here; its his grandparents that are Hungarian. Belle was never a musician and never gave lessons in her spare time. And obviously, since he was not born in Hungary and never lived there, Lou did not play for any radio station in Budapest.

Unfortunately, the unauthorized biography by Marc Eliot has been a source of inaccurate or completely fabricated information. How do I go about fixing these things? Can I just go in and edit them? I don't have a "source" other than Paul and Eddie for some of this information. Thanks for your help Psbroadway (talk) 21:43, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, I suggest you read this page Biographies of living persons, particularly this sentence "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion." Please be careful not to add new material that is contentious and not reliably sourced, and note that we have a policy of no original research. But you are welcome to edit the article just as all readers are. Graham Colm (talk) 21:55, 10 November 2011 (UTC)


 * PS. I have removed the disputed content outlined above in accordance with WP:BLP. Graham Colm (talk) 23:28, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Emmy Award
Shouldn't be mentioned in the Awards section that he won an Emmy in 1978 for his "The Paul Simon Special", in the category Outstanding Writing in a Comedy, Variety, or Music Special? If anybody objects, I'll put it - or better, if someone is keeping track of this page, it will be best, since I am not too confident of my skills in the language of Shakespeare. --Nazroon (talk) 03:01, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

ny times article
i do not understand how my adding quotes from a new york times article that pertains to Paul simon is somehow non neutral just because it may not be entirely complimentary? this seems like taking the neutrality thing a bit far whereas anything an individual editor doesn't personally like can be declared non neutral shouldn't someone at least have to make a case for how it is non neutral instead of just throwing it out there — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.139.48.22 (talk) 03:11, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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