Talk:Perth Modern School

Why Edit Lock
Why has this page been locked? It has also been reverted back to orriginal cvontent, which has destroyed almost 3 houtrs of work. What right does he editor have to do this?

Thankyou--203.59.9.15 07:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Bastardization Within Wiki Ranks
Why must the controlling mongrels that reside in their wiki-holes block people trying to make a website about a school. People can't say that you have absolutely nothing! After all, you have inferiority!

You started at the bottom - and it's been downhill ever since. If what you don't know can't hurt you, you must be practically invulnerable! You stupid, stupid pig.

Because you and your other anonymous friends are in an edit war. Stop trolling and solve the matter amongst yourselves. — Mar. 12, '06 [07:26] 

Complaint
This page is very biased towards the so called 'SAC' whatever it is. It just looks like some cheap thing to get students power over teachers. Your kids for gods sake so just learn and be gone with it. In a few years time you will have the speach power but not now. I'm sorry if this is an adult who likes this 'SAC' but i dont like it

Like or dislike does not enter into the matter. A process was being asserted and followed. It was a current and relevant issue to the school and article. If you have a PoV complaint then list it as so and not just as *Oh! I don't like this*. This is an encyclopeadiea! If there is a PoV issue then correct the PoV and leave the information. --ISpyFace 15:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Updates?
This hasn't been updated since prior to 2007, some of the information is outdated (such as the section about it being a music school - it is no longer possible to get in just from music). sickmate 10:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested re-assessment
An interesting school which has a specialised gifted and talented programme and music programme. The school also incorporates the Graduate College of Dance, though the precise nature of the relationship between the school and the dance college is not clear (there are no dancers listed amongst the alumni). A short but impressive list of alumni including a former Australian PM and Rolf Harris. Not yet B class as there are no in-text references. The article focuses somewhat too much on future events and looks as though it is already out of date. Care should be taken to adopt a neutral point of view and to back up all claims with suitable references. Dahliarose 13:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Removal of some parts of History
The line: "and allows for an enriched and compacted curriculum." has been removed due to all government schools having the same curriculum. Especially since the implementation of the WACE. Perth modern is no exception. Thank you. Mod.torrentrealm (talk) 06:16, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, Teachers at Perth Modern School have been selected on their ability to teach Gifted students, and many also have undergone further training in the principles of Gifted education. was removed due to lack of a reference and potential biased information. see WP:NPOV. Mod.torrentrealm (talk) 06:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism
There has been a considerable amount of vandalism to this page in the last month, particularly changing the spelling of 'Sampson' in a potentially offensive, satirical way. This is not an Uncyclopedia article, and any such changes will be reverted on sight. If the vandalism persists, I will consider getting the page edit-locked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.208.23.150 (talk) 08:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Dance School.
The dance school is being phased out, in 2012 there will be no more dance students at Perth Modern School. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Teh Wallaby (talk • contribs) 10:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Motto
G'day All,

Just commenting in regards to some recent edits regarding the motto. It is inconsistent against the other school articles to have an interpretation of the motto in the infobox. It would be much better in a section of its own in the body of the article. If anyone would like to add the new section, they're welcome. - danjel  (talk to me) 05:24, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 02:40, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Addition of honour board list
I am a volunteer with the Perth Modern School Museum. We posted a digital honour board on the Wikipedia PMS page on 28 October 2020 and it was removed by Coolabahapple a few hours later. The original of the digital honour board is at honour.perthmodern.wa.gov.au. The 151 names on the honour board are of those former students who died as a result of their military service in times of conflict. We posted a copy on Wikipedia so that it is available to members of the wider community. The board is incomplete and encourages readers to contribute to it. Could you please advise us if the honour board is sufficiently notable to warrant an inclusion on Wikipedia. If it is, we would put it on a separate Wikipedia page rather than on the PMS page as it did unbalance the page, as pointed out by Coolabahapple.

Thanks very much for your assistance.

Jungle Bob 99 (talk) 14:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The list struck me as far to detailed and long for this article. As to a stand-alone article, would the individuals listed there meet the notability criteria, at least some of them? I'm not sure your list itself would met notability criteria either. You are welcome to create such a list in draft space, just follow Drafts for some guidance, but there is a risk that it may not pass and your efforts are waisted. A more suitable solution may be to have a small honour board section as you had with the list, but not have the list. If anybody is interested they can klick on the reference as an external link for more information. Calistemon (talk) 15:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Perth Modern School has posted a digital honour board on its website at https://honour.perthmodern.wa.edu.au/. Approximately 10% of the cells are empty and will be filled as research continues.

The school would like to post a reduced version of the honour board on Wikipedia. The reduced version consists of the first 12 columns in which all cells are filled. An unformatted extract of the first four rows of students is below.

The columns can be sorted so that relationships can be identified such as Leslie Little and Frank Williamson both being at the school in 1911, both serving in the 51st Battalion, both dying within three weeks of each other in the bitter fighting at Mouquet Farm in 1916, and both being under 20 when they died (Frank was only 17 years and 10 months old). The model for the honour board is the Australian VC Wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Victoria_Cross_recipients

Would Wikipedia welcome such an addition to its encyclopedia, please?

Thank you for your guidance.

Jungle Bob 99 (talk) 00:05, 25 November 2020 (UTC) OLD MODERNIANS WHO DIED AS A RESULT OF THEIR SERVICE IN WORLD WAR 1, WORLD WAR 2, MALAYA AND VIETNAM. 1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12 First Names	Last Name	Years at Modern School	Date of Birth	Date of Death	 Age at Death 	Conflict	Service	Service No	Unit	Final Rank	Place of Death Percival	Boland	1912-13	7/2/1895	28/6/1915	20y,4m	WW1	Army	635	11th Battalion	Private	Gallipoli John Shaw	Anderson	1911-14	2/03/1896	1/8/1915	19y,4m	WW1	Army	1504	11th Battalion	Lance Corporal	Gallipoli Marshall Trigellis	Fox	1911-14	16/2/1896	1/8/1915	19y,5m	WW1	Army	1462	11th Battalion	Private	Gallipoli John	Regan	1911	4/2/1895	7/8/1915	20y,6m	WW1	Army	463	10th Light Horse	Trooper	Gallipoli
 * Note This question was also asked at User talk:Jungle Bob 99 where I gave the following answer and pointed to NOTMEMORIAL.  — jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 08:25, 27 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I took a look at the honour board on your website and it's a beautiful thing. It shows that someone has spent a lot of time on it. I especially appreciated the links to facsimiles of the original enlistment or other documents.
 * On the other hand, you ask if this would be welcome on Wikipedia and I remain of the opinion that it should not be copied over to Wikipedia. I can see where a pointer might be considered as an external link in the school's article, but the material itself should not be reproduced on Wikipedia.
 * You may see in other articles relating to military history on Wikipedia that there are detailed lists of, for instance, German soldiers who received a particular high honor List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients. These lists are considered justified on Wikipedia because receiving the highest-level military honor makes the recipients notable for Wikipedia purposes. But these lists are hard to document and maintain. The theory that the recipients are notable is often challenged by lack of documentation in independent sources, so there is some resort to primary sources.
 * I'm sorry if this is disappointing advice to you, but the guidance at NOTMEMORIAL applies even here.  — jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 08:16, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

Dear Jmcgnh

Thank you for your reply to my question on the Perth Modern School page regarding the digital honour board, and thank you for taking the time to look up the digital honour board on the school's website and your kind words - it has been a labour of love over a decade by several volunteers in the school's history centre. Thank you also for developing my understanding of what is acceptable to Wikipedia and what is not. Please forgive my lack of knowledge - Wikipedia is like the Tardis in Dr Who :-)

Wikipedia reaches such a huge audience including many Old Modernians sprinkled around the world that I have one last question: There is a section on the school's Wikipedia page that states "The Old Modernians War Memorial was unveiled in 1922 to commemorate the service of ex-students in WWI. During the war, 186 Modernians enlisted, 29 of whom lost their lives as a result of their service. The names of 24 Modernians are recorded on the monument. Five names are recorded on a plinth added to the monument in 2020. The memorial was designed by William Hardwick, the Principal Architect of Western Australia in 1920, and it is located between the Beasley building and the oval." Would it be Ok to add a sentence that states, "Details of the students' military service are recorded on the school's website" and then put a reference at the bottom of the page to the relevant page on the school's website?

Thank you for your consideration.

Best wishes

Bob

PS: Speaking of labours of love, one of our band of brothers identified the cemeteries or memorials (for those who have no known grave) of the school's 151 fallen students in four wars listed on the honour board. It is at https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z-e-Lk-ZjbR8.k3IjmFQ8eDf4&msa=0&ll=51.289406%2C79.453125&spn=97.958154%2C216.5625&iwloc=lyrftr%3Amsid%3A20518723491845755383 Descriptions of each location are on the panel on the left. It really is quite remarkable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jungle Bob 99 (talk • contribs) 06:09, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , I'm moving your post from my talk page to here, since the main goal is to have a discussion about content being considered for the associated article page. Note that the war memorial section has no references right now. That's a problem and adding the sentence you propose would not solve it. We would like to see a published source that discusses the war memorial and can support the statements that are currently being made. I don't think it would be considered out of line for that citation to include a note giving the external link to the honour board at the school website. But getting some reference for the war memorial description has to come first.  — jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 06:34, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks jmcgnh and apologies for not replying correctly. I’m gradually getting the hang of it. I will attend to the matter you raised regarding a published source for the war memorial when I am at the school tomorrow. Thank you for giving the thumbs up on the honour board addition after we fix the published source problem. Regards Jungle Bob 99 (talk) 08:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

question about reference
IsPerth Modern School: The History and the Heritage by the sphinx foundation (an organisation associated with the school) a good source for the article? It's definitely biased as its basically one step off of self-written, but a lot of work was put in to collect and summarise various parts of the history. (also just for the sake of entertainment, it's old enough to include a companion CD) Xurizuri (talk) 12:39, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Controversies: Raise the Roof
I've been writing the controversies section and I've just included a bunch on RtR. Could someone check it, as I have personal knowledge of some of the issues and which may have introduced bias into my summary of the articles. This was also my first attempt at formatting references properly, so they may be wonky. Cheers, Xurizuri (talk) 11:00, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

The RtR comments are consistent with what I have heard, but I'm not sure the preceding paragraph deserves to be there. It is based on a story by a journalist who did not understand the ICSEA, and made a few unsubstantiated claims. The ICSEA is not based at all on parents income, and is designed to predict academic performance for the purpose of comparing schools' NAPLAN results. The GATE test is also intended to measure academic aptitude, which predicts academic performance. So if the two were not highly correlated, something would be badly wrong. It is almost as if they are complaining that dumb people are under-represented. The coaching issue is real, but that is more of an ethnic matter, not wealth as implied. Balgaboy (talk) 05:19, 1 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Balgaboy, I'm glad the RtR section is appropriate. However, I disagree with you regarding the ICSEA paragraph.
 * Firstly, the journalist specialises in reporting on educational issues in WA. Secondly, it's published by the ABC, which is the most trusted news source in Australia.
 * While you say ICSEA doesn't reflect parental income, it definitely does: it's calculated from information such as parental occupation and education level, which are directly related to income. Sidenote: the article doesn't even claim that ICSEA is calculated directly from income - the closest statement to that which is in there is the specialist on gifted children saying that low-income and Indigenous students are under-represented at Perth Modern. The purpose of ICSEA is not to predict academic performance. It's used to calculate advantage so you can compare academic performance between schools who are on an equal playing field. It was developed because it is not reasonable to compare an advantaged school to one that is disadvantaged. It's an accurate measure of advantage too. Academic performance is impacted by all factors included in the ICSEA, none of which are a measure of student ability.
 * Just like NAPLAN is, the ASET (which replaced the GATE test) is impacted by factors independent of aptitude. It was intended to test academic aptitude, but a common issue with intelligence testing is that we pretty often get it wrong. You're right, aptitude definitely predicts academic performance, but so do parental and other factors such as those included in the ICSEA. As per the ABC article (again, which includes statements from a subject matter expert as well as the journalist), the ASET is unintentionally testing for the effects of parental factors, not just for the aptitude of the student. If you disagree with that, please provide evidence. The issue is not that "dumb" people are under-represented, it's that the ASET results keep finding that no kids who are poor, Indigenous, disabled, etc., are gifted, which is not true. If you plan to claim that the test is correct about that, please provide evidence.
 * Finally, why do you say the coaching is an ethnic matter? And wealth inherently affects coaching - if a kid's parents can't afford to pay for coaching, then that kid cannot get the benefits of it (which you accept are real, as you said that coaching is a genuine problem). --Xurizuri (talk) 02:29, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

"Mod" vs "it"
Re, "Mod" is a colloquial term (lead sentence of article), so we ought not be using it in the article (WP:COLLOQUIAL). However repeating the full name of the school, or even the shorter "Perth Modern" twice is such close succession if unnecessarily verbose. That's why we have pronouns, like "it". Mitch Ames (talk) 23:28, 24 January 2023 (UTC)