Talk:Phos Hilaron

Talk
a bizzare incident happened when I was editing this page, I recorded it on my talk page. Amatire :  (Talk Page)  15:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Audio
Would it be appropriate to add an audio file of the hymn in question? I'm a Byzantine chanter-in-training and would be more than happy to provide one. InfernoXV :  (Talk Page)  02:54, 09 September 2006 (GMT+8)


 * I'm sure it would be fine so long as you hold the copyright to the recording itself. Make sure you mention the composer of your particular version. -- Ammi 15:58, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

English translations note
I've removed the undoubtedly copyrighted lyrics. THe other versions I've included on the following basis:


 * Keble: cited in the text and used in the Charles Wood anthem
 * Bridges: most common hymnal version, as far as I have seen
 * 1979 BCP: we need at least one official liturgical version

Note the the text of the 1979 BCP is in the public domain, for all you copyright pendants. Mangoe 17:11, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Sebaste
I was not sure whether any of Sebastes on dab page is the right one. Someone with knowledge of the subject, please? --Ruziklan (talk) 22:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * My guess is Sivas since it is the only one listed in Pontus (a requirement), was in Greater Armenia, and was an important Ecclesiastical center. Rwflammang (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Kebel Translation
I reverted changes to the translation by Kebel, with the following reasons: I'd cite the CD insert, but I'm a bit baffled about how exactly to cite a CD insert, so if someone can clarify I'll do so. If someone can provide another reputable source, that's just as good.Superflyguy (talk) 03:46, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The revision was no more verifiable than the pre-revision text.
 * Manual of Style (capital letters) states that "Pronouns referring to dieties... are not capitalized".
 * Note that if (and only if) the pronouns are verifiably capitalized in the origonal translation, this style guide recommendation should be ignored.
 * In the Passion: Hymns Ancient and Modern booklet, the lyrics (cited as being Kebel's translation) say "Jesus" instead of "Jesu".
 * There is a snowball's chance in hell that the lyrics ended with "they own" in Kebel's translation. The pronoun should clearly be referring to God, and as such is either 'thy' or 'thine'. I used the Passion booklet as my source, which uses 'thine'.

I undid a change from "thine own" to "they own". The actual original text of Kebel's translation remains unsubstantiated, but 'glories, they own' neither grammatically makes sense nor matches any other translation, so I'm inclined to give Kebel the benefit of the doubt and assume he was competent enough in English and Greek not to get the translation wrong in a nonsensical manner. If anyone can demonstrate that "thine glories, Lord, they own" either was in fact his original translation or grammatically makes sense, I'd be happy to let their change stand: if the change is made with no justification whatsoever, I'm going to revert it when I notice it. Superflyguy (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Here is the first link I could find on the internet that predates this article. It has "they own [thy glories]", which makes sense. "Thine own thy glories" would only make sense if "thine" is interpreted to be a plural substantive adjective, which is possible, but a reach IMHO. "They own thy glories" is a passible interpretation of the Greek, which means "the uuniverse gives you glory". The antecedent of "they", in this case, is "all times". The antecedent of "thine" would be unclear at best. Rwflammang (talk) 19:55, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks (both for finding an answer and for using the talk page). I didn't find much of anything (not based off this article) either way when I looked. I considered the possible interpretation of "they own thy glories," but couldn't come up with an antecedent. Superflyguy (talk) 14:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Continued below at Keble translation again &mdash; Jpacobb (talk) 20:13, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Sources and References
Hello. Could anyone please tell me the source of the Latin version, 'Iucunda lux, tu gloriae,' given on the main page? I noticed it's in four stanzas, each of four lines of eight syllables, like many 'Ambrosian hymns.'

I've found the following sources for the Greek text;

de Journel, R., Enchiridion Patristicum, 21st ed, Herder & Herder, 1962, p.39.

Routh, M.J., Reliquiae Sacrae, 2nd ed, Oxford University Press, 1846, vol.3, p.515.

Both these give a Latin translation beginning, Lumen hilare... I know that J.M. Neale & R.F Littledale give the text and a translation in their studies of Orthodox liturgy, but don't have the references to hand, sorry. Thank you very much for your help. Mikeytee (talk) 17:07, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Apostolic Constitutions
Where is this hymn in the Apostolic Constitutions? I can't find it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:9FC0:22:74CC:7344:990:6FF (talk) 12:08, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Original melody

 * The original melody, as used by the Greek Orthodox Church on the original text,

Do we have any evidence that this is the original melody? Marnanel (talk) 13:21, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Transliteration of Greek
Why is there a transliteration of the Greek text using Erasmian pronunciation? This hymn is still in wide usage (in Greek), and as noted on the page, it was probably pronounced more like modern Greek when it was written. Erasmian is kind of pointless for liturgical Greek. (I apologize for not being logged in: trying to remember my account info! And I was ruined by Erasmian Greek pronunciation early on, so I don't trust my own transliteration; otherwise, I would provide one.) Best, A. Cannon

Keble translation again
Over the last ten years, there has been a good deal of "editorial ping-pong" (thy versus they) in the last line without any mention of sources to justify the changes. I have collated the texts given in the Angican Hymnbook (1965) and Hymns & Psalms (Methodist Publishing House - 1983). They both say agree on "they" and also do not elide the article in the phrase in the first verse "the immortal Father". The only divergence between the two versions is in the use of capital letters for pronouns and possessives when these refer to God or one of the persons of the Trinity. The newer Methodist book opts for lower-case where the AHB follows the older style and has upper-case. Since the AHB has an editorial policy of indicating that changes have been made in the words and gives no such indication in this case, and Keble was writing a century earlier style I have followed AHB under MOS:Principle of Minimum Change rather than H & P. I have inserted a comment into the article asking that any further changes be properly sourced. &mdash; Jpacobb (talk) 20:03, 31 January 2017 (UTC)