Talk:Pirates 4-D

Another former venue
This film was also shown at the SeaWorld of Aurora, Ohio when it existed. It was my favorite attraction of the park at the time. :) CyberTootie (talk) 22:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

This venue was actually the location of the attraction's premiere. It opened here at least a year ahead of any other venue. I will try to find the date. Oddjob84 (talk) 14:45, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I can't find a reference to support that online from a WP:Reliable source, so I've reverted the addition for now. If you can find sources for it, then please feel free to re-add it. Wikishovel (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

Wikishovel: You reverted three different additions made at different times,  but cited only one problem. I have replaced the two you did not object to, as they ought not to be controversial and can be sourced independently. As to the location of the premiere attraction, I said I would check for the date, and can perhaps find a source. It should not be any surprise there is little online source information for a park which closed in 2001. Take a look here: http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/03/sea_world_ohio_old_photos_of_c.html and scroll over to the color map of the park (image 5/56). Use the full page button and look in the lower right corner; you will see the Harbor Theater, with a "Pirates" overlay on it. IMDb shows a 1999 release date for the film and Wikipedia shows "Sea World" (which one?) in 1999 as the earliest opening date. Thorpe Park also shows 1999 (on or about April 4th, I think). At a minimum, we ought to add Seaworld Ohio as a Pirates venue, as it clearly ran there. Oddjob84 (talk) 03:41, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I only reverted your unsourced addition once. The others were for obvious vandalism by anonymous editors. The article at the moment is already poorly sourced. Why not have a go at finding sources for what's here? Thanks,Wikishovel (talk) 08:13, 31 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Wikishovel: I didn't know about the vandalism.  Thanks.  See new section below.  Oddjob84 (talk) 15:00, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

Pirates 4D in Phantasialand, Germany
The film is also shown in Phantasialand, Germany since 1999. It is shown in the "Alt Berlin" (Old Berlin) area of the park in "Schauspielhaus"-Building. It is dubbed into german language. Coud someone build it in? TomGaribaldi (talk) 08:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
 * It apparently closed at the end of the 2014 season [see: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=https://www.phantafriends.de/topic/157-berlin-pirates-in-4d/&prev=search] Oddjob84 (talk) 15:49, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * No, it did not close, neither temporarily nor permanently. The page you linked is just "What if..." and "I wish..." talking. Pirates (in) 4D is still shown at Phantasialand during the 2017 summer season. So the article statement "It was formerly shown...at Phantasialand..." is incorrect. -- Thoroe (talk) 10:01, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
 * @User:Thoroe|Thoroe  Good catch.  It has been corrected in the mainspace article.  Oddjob84 (talk) 12:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

scare quotes
Why does "attraction" have square quotes? T.Y. Faltermeyer (talk) 18:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I noticed that also. There's no reason for the quotes to be there. --George100 (talk) 06:10, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Revisions Beginning 12/2016
✅ First Pass is finished. Oddjob84 (talk) 02:40, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

I am going to undertake the process of expanding this article and providing sources where they are available. This process will likely go on for some time. If you wish to discuss any of these revisions, please do so here first. If it is in the article proper, please be assured I can (and will) eventually provide source material. I also solicit your help. I have reviewed the pages for other attractions of this type, and they all seem lacking. What information would you really like to see in an article of this type? Note: see the beginning of this discussion above, in Another former venue. Oddjob84 (talk) 14:55, 31 December 2016 (UTC)
 * It's true, there are a lot of poorly referenced articles on attractions like this, but rather than make this one even worse, let's make this one well referenced. I'd be happy to help if you like, if you add them here on the talk page. Wikishovel (talk) 20:26, 31 December 2016 (UTC)

The below is a work in progress. Comments? Oddjob84 (talk) 16:36, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
 * would it be OK with you if I edit the draft you've posted below? Thanks, Wikishovel (talk) 18:01, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, by all means. I will quit working on it for a while so it isn't a moving target. Oddjob84 (talk) 17:44, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, done. I've copied the references for Busch Gardens Williamsburg to the article. The problem remains of sources for most of this: I don't mind using IMDB to reference an article that's not a WP:BLP, but most of what's below is unsourced. That's the main problem to solve, and I'm happy to help dig for references. I've added a new one for Thorpe Park to the article. Thanks, Wikishovel (talk) 06:36, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It looks great, and is, I think, an improvement. OK, so let's both go after more references and see what can be found.  Note: if you need to know why or how I have arrived at a particular point, do ask.  Knowing might make finding sources easier.   We might also ask the Seaworld Entertainment task force to take a look.

I have noted a few small problems with the text, and will fix them and leave a summary of the changes here. Also, note that I have broken this discussion out of the revision proper, for clarity. Oddjob84 (talk) 19:04, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Cut & paste old "plot" text into Synopsis. It has gone missing from the current article, and was not displaying on the Talk Page either.
 * Added hyperlink to Tampa, Florida.
 * There is something wrong with the first two paragraphs under Technical Information. It looks correct in the editor, but does not display on the Talk Page.  Sorry, don't know how to fix that one.
 * Added reference #8.
 * Oddjob84 (talk) 19:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the paragraph problem in Technical Information: my fault, I closed a reference with </ref< . Now fixed: . Wikishovel (talk) 02:38, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Proposed Changes
✅ These revisions will be moved to the main article, as there have been no comments to date. If you wish to comment, please use Remaining Problems/Solutions heading, below. Oddjob84 (talk) 02:43, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Pirates 4D (also known as Pirates 3D) is an attraction film designed to be shown in a specially-built or remodeled theater space in a theme park, featuring in-theater special effects, sometimes referred to as a 4D film.

The film itself is a dual strip 70mm 3D film short, featuring the actors Leslie Nielsen and Eric Idle. It was produced by Busch Entertainment Corporation, and distributed by Iwerks Entertainment. It was released in 1999, and first shown at Sea World Ohio (then owned by Busch), at two Busch Gardens parks, and at Thorpe Park in England, then owned by The Tussauds Group, which was the earliest overseas venue.

Venues
The film was produced exclusively for theme park usage. It was formerly shown at Sea World Ohio  in Aurora, Ohio, Busch Gardens Williamsburg,   in Williamsburg, Virginia, Busch Gardens Tampa Bay in Tampa, Florida, Thorpe Park   in Chertsey, Surrey, England, SeaWorld San Diego in San Diego, California, SeaWorld San Antonio in San Antonio, Texas, Hansa Park in Sierksdorf, Germany, Mirabilandia in Italy, Magix 4d ride on Sentosa Island, Singapore,  Six Flags New Orleans in New Orleans, Louisiana, Phantasialand in Brühl, Germany, Noah's Ark Water Park in Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin, and the Luxor Casino in Las Vegas, Nevada.

The Luxor venue was built from the ground up, while the same theater houses different shows titled Fantasy and Carrot Top during after hours. The show at Busch Gardens Tampa Bay was closed in March 2010 to make way for Sesame Street Film Festival 4-D, but due to guest demand, the attraction returned on August 5, 2010 and featured three showings a day after three showings of the "Sesame Street" film.[3][4] On July 7, 2013, Busch Gardens Tampa announced that Pirates 4-D had closed again in Timbuktu (now Pantopia) along with Timbuktu Theater to make way for a new show and Pantopia Theater.

Synopsis
Davie (Adam Wylie), a cabin boy who was betrayed and marooned by the nasty Captain Lucky (Leslie Nielsen) on Pirate Island, escapes the captain's trap and sets up booby traps with the help of a monkey named Chester to catch Lucky and his crew when he returns to the island to recover a treasure he buried there. The captain, with a French pirate named Pierre (Eric Idle) as his first mate, returns soon after, along with his new crew. Two of the pirates are caught in a trap involving crabs. The next pirate has a bee hive dropped on his head, while the next is hit in the back by a cactus. Pierre is caught in a trap involving pigeons, which defecate on him. After the booby traps leave all the pirates behind except for the Captain and Pierre, Lucky leads Pierre into a dark cave on the island where his treasure is hidden. Upon entering the cave, Pierre encounters a giant spider and various bats, before running into the skeletons of Lucky's former crew, having been hung by shackles to the cave's walls. Lucky approaches Pierre, menacing him with "To me...or not to me". The captain finds his treasure chest, which now holds a booby trap. After the captain begins caressing the chest's treasures, the chest locks him with shackles and drags him out of the cave and into a lake, past the pigeons. Meanwhile, the pirate crew discovers Davie, and prepare to attack him, before Pierre shows up with the skeletons of Lucky's last crew. Lucky eventually escapes the shackles and begins to have a sword fight with Davie, whom he disarms. They all return to the ship, where the crew makes Lucky walk the plank, and Davie is named as the crew's new captain. As the screen begins to close to black, Lucky appears in front of it and spits out water, telling the audience "I'll be back" before the closing screen bonks him and knocks him out. The film trailer may be seen on YouTube.

Effects
Viewers of the film wear polarized 3D glasses in order to experience the film's 3D effects. The 4-D effects are of two general types: in-theater special effects, such as water cannons, and specialized seating, with built-in effects and audio.

The in-theater effects packages were sometimes produced by different manufacturers. Busch Entertainment Corporation (BEC) developed its own package for its initial installations, as did Thorpe Park. Later installations most likely utilized a more common package which was the early Iwerks 3D/4D FX Theatre System. Thorpe Park's package was developed by Technology Design Associates (TDA), and integrated by Advanced Entertainment Technology (AET).

Each package differed somewhat as to which effects were included, and the specific application of each, however, there were many similarities, driven by moments built into the film. For example, at the end of the film, after Captain Lucky walks the plank, he surfaces and spits water into the camera. Simultaneously, one or more large water cannons are discharged from below the screen, sending a water spray out into the audience. The guests in the front rows were often soaked.

The specialized 4D film seating featured in-seat sound, vibrators, water squirts, bursts of air and wires which push against the viewers' feet.

Technical information
The film was released as a 70mm/5 perforation twin strip polarized 3-D attraction film 17 minutes in length, and was directed by Keith Melton, and written by Eric Idle. It was in color, and was filmed in 2.1:1 aspect ratio. It featured Dolby Digital sound, although this was usually not used.

The Iwerks seating was an early version of a product now called Simex-Iwerks 4-D Seats. This early version was far less capable than the current model, with the major difference being the lack of the current motion simulator base (3 DOF) capabilities.

The BEC seats and the TDA/AET seats were quite similar. Both featured the following effects: water spray, wind effect, bats effect, seat speakers and seat vibrators. The BEC seats were installed at Busch Gardens Williamsburg, and replaced an earlier prototype at Sea World Ohio. The TDA/AET seats were used at Thorpe Park.

Besides the water cannons noted above, the in-house effects included a "bird droppings" effect, consisting of a burst of warm water sprayed on the audience from the ceiling when the birds are released on the pirates, a large smoke ring effect, discharged over the audience when the ship's cannon is shot toward the camera, and a glittering gold effect around the proscenium when Lucky's treasure is revealed. The audio for Pirates 4-D was usually stored on an outboard device, and synchronized to the film. The early SeaWorld/Busch Gardens venues used an 8 channel Tascam[] DA-88 digital audio tape (DAT)[] deck, while the Thorpe Park installation used a 12 channel Alcorn-McBride[] Digital Binloop. This was necessary because the Dolby Digital format had only six tracks available for audio, and all were used for the cinema speakers. Busch used the seventh channel for the seat speakers. Thorpe Park used four channels for the seat speakers, one for a point source speaker for Justa, its animatronic[] pirate parrot, and the twelfth for the preshow.

Infobox
[This needs to be re-ordered. Probably earliest to latest, as the later openings and closings are very hard to date. The three probable premiere locations at the top?] [Add location: Sea World Ohio; Harbor Theater; opened = 1997; closed = 2001; status = closed] [Fix problem: location 6 = Sea World... which Sea World? There are a number of them.] [fix problem: Busch Gardens Williamsburg; opened = March 1998] Fix problem: [General Statistics running time is shown as 15 minutes, IMDb indicates 17 minutes]; [there is no source for this film being closed-captioned, remove logo]; [Manufacturer is shown as Iwerks. "Manufacturer" is misleading, the term "Distributor" would be more accurate.] [More on General Statistics: American running time was probably the 17 minutes shown on IMBd; at least the Thorpe Park version was probably the 15 minute figure, the difference being that the un-credited Rodney Dangerfield appearance at the end of the film was cut, as he was considered little-known in Europe.] [The film was not, and is not, closed captioned. It had a separate track (mono mix) feeding a hearing-assistance transmitter[]. Guests could request headsets or induction loops [].] Oddjob84 (talk) 15:37, 9 January 2017 (UTC) Opening order: SeaWorld Ohio 5/10/1997; Busch Gardens Williamsburg 3/28/1998; Thorpe Park 3/20/1999; probably another Busch Park 1999? Oddjob84 (talk) 19:47, 9 January 2017 (UTC) Pirates opened at SeaWorld San Diego May 2000 .Oddjob84 (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2017 (UTC) Change open to closed at the Luxor Hotel, Las Vegas (there are no references indicating the show is running). Pirates apparently closed at Phantasialand at the end of the 2014 season, change status to Closed  Pirates apparently closed at Noah's Ark Water Park at the end of the 2013 season, change status to Closed. Oddjob84 (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2017 (UTC) Pirates closed at Thorpe Park in 2008. Oddjob84 (talk) 14:17, 12 January 2017 (UTC) Pirates closed at Six Flags New Orleans in 2003. Oddjob84 (talk) 01:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC) NOTE: some of the references in this section may not be represented in the reference list above. Oddjob84 (talk) 01:14, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Remaining Problems & Solutions
1. In the listing for Sea World (right-hand side of page) which is under Thorpe Park;  which Sea World is that? [This entry on the main page now has disappeared.]
 * Resolved

2. IMDb shows a release date of 1999 for the film. I have found conflicting indications that it actually opened at Sea World Ohio and Busch Gardens Williamsburg in the summer of 1998. Can anyone find a reference for this? It makes some sense, since Busch Entertainment was the film's producer (owner, if you like), and may not have licensed the film for release until 1999, the year it opened at Thorpe Park, the first non-Busch venue.
 * Ah Ha! The smoking gun: http://parkfans.net/thread-2001-post-70019.html scroll down to post #26. It opened March 28, 1998 in Williamsburg.  Oddjob84 (talk) 16:42, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * And again! http://www.rollercoasterfreak.com/Geauga_Lake/Sea_World_History.html Sea World Ohio opened Pirates 4D on May 10, 1997 in their new 4D theater. Oddjob84 (talk) 19:42, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Resolved. References found.

3. I have good evidence that Busch, at least in Ohio and Williamsburg, used 4-D seats and effects of their own design, perhaps built in-house. Because SWO is closed, there is no public reference I can find on this. There was a design demonstration (mockup) for prototype seats held at SWO in spring or summer of 1996. Anyone know anything about the seating?
 * More: The Williamsburg seat was designed by Busch Entertainment using what was learned from the SWO seat.  The new seat was an American Seating 35M Stellar model with the effects frame built by Form, Function, and Finesse of St.Louis.  It is not known who actually did the effects themselves.  It is believed the Williamsburg seat was retrofitted to SWO to replace the earlier seat, which was apparently considered a failure.

Oddjob84 (talk) 18:40, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

4. Yes, I know we need more pictures. I will get to this soon. Oddjob84 (talk) 18:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Started. Added movie one-sheet (poster).  Oddjob84 (talk) 16:59, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

5. More information could be added to the infobox, however, this will require researching for new sources. Oddjob84 (talk) 13:49, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

6. Regarding reversion of deleted reference to film trailer:  What "most film and ride pages" do or don't do is not germane. What is potentially useful to the reader is rather more important. Attraction films and/or 4-D films are such a tiny, specialized niche that the reader may never have seen an example. The trailer gives the reader an opportunity to gain a visual reference to one. The statement that one exists is certainly harmless in itself, and an interested reader has the option to follow the link or not. The link I have cited is "official", placed by the film distributor, and not pirated (yes, pun intended). Oddjob84 (talk) 01:22, 30 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't think the trailer is actually necessary. An example for the typical experience for a 4D ride is something best left for the main article of 4D films. If a reader wants to learn more on 4D experiences, that's where they will naturally go. This is the reason why Wikipedia provides links between articles to begin with. This article should be for the specifics of this particular 4D attraction. Also, pun appreciated.  Michael Ivan  01:39, 30 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Perhaps not really necessary, but harmless and maybe a nice touch. Besides, what is more specific to a particular film than its trailer?  I took the link to the main article 4-D film, and there is nary a trailer there.  I did note that the Pirates 4-D entry could use an update, and the "notes" seem to apply to another film.    By the way, thanks for reassessing the article... no dispute there.  Oddjob84 (talk) 04:14, 30 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I consider it to be a bit too much detail for this article. I think a worded description works as well as a trailer does. I can't recall specifics but I've been advised that any multimedia content used on Wikipedia should be accompanied with descriptions to ensure that any information available in the images or videos must be obtainable in text form. It's also preferable not to include YouTube links; Embedding media uploaded to Wikimedia Commons is what you're supposed to do, and anything on there must be open-license, which in itself is another part of the problem when it comes to linking a YouTube video. Ultimately though, you can do whatever you'd like. I won't personally revert it again. You need to be bold at times and I respect that, but eventually, others are going to raise the same issues.  Michael Ivan  11:28, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

7. Regarding circular reference for Venues: Sea World New Orleans  Kuru, since your first revision, a new, non-circular reference was substituted for the original reference (which was, indeed, circular). You have now deleted the new reference, which I just undid. If the World Heritage Encyclopedia is a mirror of Wikipedia, I sure can't find any evidence of it. Please provide some evidence of this.Oddjob84 (talk) 03:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Look harder. The notice at the bottom of the page includes "World Heritage Encyclopedia content is assembled from numerous content providers ... Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., ...", and the link above it which notes "Help to improve this article, make contributions at the Citational Source" links directly back to the Wikipedia page. The entire "World Heritage" apparatus, with their five dozen re-branded URLs, is nothing more than a simply point-in-time copy. Indeed, half the page is non-functional as it is a literal text copy and missed most of the links. If it helps you at all, I have a list of the most frequently mis-used mirrors here. The World Heritage circus is the big red section in the middle. Kuru   (talk)  19:35, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Good answer. OK, I will go looking for another (better) reference.  Thanks for the mirror link.  That will be handy.  Oddjob84 (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Resolved. Added new reference SFNO park map showing "Pirates SimEx" at the 4-D theater in Cajun World. Source: Google Images. Oddjob84 (talk) 17:03, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Removed?
We may have a bit of a semantics problem. It probably stems from the fact that the Infobox/Attractions was really more intended for physical entities, for example, roller coasters. An example: Six Flags New Orleans, after being demolished by Katrina, is still standing. A couple of its coasters were salvaged by Six Flags, and moved to other parks. That is "removed". The remaining coasters, too badly corroded to save, are still standing, so strictly speaking, they are not "removed", but "closed". The article Pirates 4-D is about a film. Films, being somewhat of an intangible entity, "close" but are not "removed". True, 4-D films require a specially-built theater, which could be removed. Take the Luxor for example. We know Pirates closed there. However, I do not find any replacement; it appears they removed the entire installation. That would be a good case for "removed". Now take Thorpe Park. Pirates closed there, and the theater stood empty for a while, but they have since opened a new 4-D film. This sounds like a case of "closed", and then populate the "replaced" field in the infobox. Another pretty clear one is Sea World Ohio. Pirates closed when the park was sold to Six Flags in 2001. The 4-D theater was subsequently demolished. Sounds like "removed". To my knowledge, the other venues are all still standing, with new films in them, making "closed" more accurate. Aside from the semantics, there still exists the pivotal problem, "prove it". While I know much of what I said is true, in many cases, citations are lacking. I can't even find the date Pirates actually closed at Luxor. Discussion? Oddjob84 (talk) 10:54, 16 June 2017 (UTC)