Talk:Poland Is Not Yet Lost

Opening comments
If we prefer the English name over the original, shouldn't this article be at Dąbrowski's Mazurka? After all that's how it is called... Halibutt 19:20, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed. Frankly, you shouldn't ask, you should just move it to new location. Current version it's obviously only half-translated. Przepla 15:17, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Why not the original title? The translated form doesn't seem to be established in English. -- Naive cynic 09:44, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

This article has been renamed after the result of a move request. Dragons flight 18:30, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Tense in incipit
The first line in Polish appears to be in the past tense, from the -la ending, and this is supported by the Esperanto version which starts "Ankora&#365; Pollando ne pereis" i.e. "Thus far Poland has not perished". Don't know enough Polish to feel comfortable editing this, but I wanted to at least point it out. --Haruo 10:48, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Informal English name
The article currently says the song is informally known in English as ""Poland Will Never Lose Her Life"",

But I have never heard of that before. I have heard of "Poland is not yet lost" and "Poland has not yet perished", however. Any objections to my removing the first phrase and inserting the latter two? Olessi 19:52, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

no consensus to move — Mets501 (talk) 03:26, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested move, 2006
Dąbrowski's Mazurka → Mazurek Dąbrowskiego — Category:National anthems -- user:Qviri 03:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Since I was asked to elaborate. I had hoped that by pointing out the category, I would make a sufficient point, but okay: Bro Gozh ma Zadoù - Breton title for Brittany; Il Canto degli Italiani - Italian title for Italy; De âlde Friezen - er, Fresian title for Friesland; Ee Mungu Nguvu Yetu - Swahili for Kenya; Kde domov můj - Czech for the Czech Republic; Ertra, Ertra, Ertra - Tigrinya for Eritrea; La Marseillaise - French for France; A Portuguesa - Portuguese for Portugal; Noble patria, tu hermosa bandera - Spanish for Costa Rica; Salve, Oh Patria - Spanish for Ecuador; Das Lied der Deutschen - German for Germany; O Canada - English for Canada; Hey, Slavs - English, presumably to avoid naming controversy; Somalia, Wake Up - English title for Somalia; Patriots of Micronesia - English for FSM; National Anthem of Colombia - English title for Colombia. --user:Qviri 12:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * A brief survey of Nationalanthemsofeurope:
 * Article name is in English where country's official language is not English: Hymn to Freedom (Cyprus, Greece), National Anthem of Russia (Russia), Swiss Psalm (Switzerland), Ukraine's glory has not perished (Ukraine)
 * Article name is in one of country's official languages and contains a line from the anthem: El Gran Carlemany (Andorra), Mer Hayrenik (Armenia), Land der Berge, Land am Strome (Austria), My Belarusy (Belarus), Mila Rodino (Bulgaria), Lijepa naša domovino (Croatia), Kde domov můj (Czech Republic), Der er et yndigt land (Denmark), Mu isamaa, mu õnn ja rõõm (Estonia), Maamme (Finland), Tavisupleba (Georgia), Amhrán na bhFiann (Ireland), Dievs, svētī Latviju! (Latvia), Oben am jungen Rhein (Liechtenstein), Ons Hémécht (Luxembourg), Denes nad Makedonija (Macedonia), Limba noastră (Moldova), Oj, svijetla majska zoro (Montenegro), Wilhelmus (Netherlands), Ja, vi elsker dette landet (Norway), Deşteaptă-te, române! (Romania), Bože pravde (Serbia), Nad Tatrou sa blýska (Slovakia), Zdravljica (Slovenia), Du gamla, Du fria (Sweden), God Save the Queen (United Kingdom)
 * Article name is in one of country's official languages and consists of a local given name: Hymni i Flamurit (Albania), Azərbaycan Respublikasının Dövlət Himni (Azerbaijan), The Brabançonne (Belgium, odd use of "the"), Intermeco (Bosnia and Herzegovina, instrumental), La Marseillaise (France), Das Lied der Deutschen (Germany), Himnusz (Hungary), Lofsöngur (Iceland), Il Canto degli Italiani (Italy), Tautiška giesmė (Lithuania), L-Innu Malti (Malta), Hymne Monégasque (Monaco), A Portuguesa (Portugal), Inno Nazionale della Repubblica (San Marino, instrumental), Marcha Real (Spain, instrumental), İstiklâl Marşı (Turkey), Inno e Marcia Pontificale (Vatican City)
 * Other: My Kazakhstan (anthem) (Kazakhstan -- really unsure here, may be a line)
 * Notably, anthems of Belgium, France, Germany, Hundary, Italy, Portugal, and Spain all use their "given names" in the country's official language, and not English translations. --user:Qviri 01:57, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Survey. 2006
Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.
 * oppose The examples where the local language is used are almost entirely cases where the name is a quotation from the song. (La Marseillaise is an exception, but it is established in English and virtually untranslatable.) This isn't; it's a description, as good in English as in Polish; and intelligible to anglophones only in English. Septentrionalis 16:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Support then. Thanks for the clarification, it seems there is a wiki-wide agreement to have anthems under their local names. Long live consistency!  // Halibutt 15:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is inconsistent. Septentrionalis 19:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Which does not mean we should not try to correct that.  // Halibutt 21:40, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Appleseed (Talk) 15:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Use English. I oppose the suggested name. Instead of the current name, I would suggest the "Dabrowski Mazurka". Shilkanni 22:27, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move (second time)

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was move to Poland Is Not Yet Lost. JPG-GR (talk) 17:50, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Dąbrowski& → Mazurek Dąbrowskiego or Poland Is Not Yet Lost — The reason is the same as for the previous request: most articles about national anthems are at the native title.

Most exceptions, where the English title is used instead, are for countries with more than one official language or for anthems without a title, known simply as "National Anthem of...", none of which is the case here. In the case of Mazurek Dąbrowskiego, the English rendering is particularly awkward since I wouldn't expect most native English speakers to know what a mazurka is, let alone who Dąbrowski was. The Polish anthem is probably better known in the English-speaking world by its incipit, Poland Is Not Yet Lost, which is not, however, the official title.

It's been more than a year since the last, inconclusive, discussion. Articles about anthems have become even more standardized since then, so maybe this time a consensus to move will be reached. —&mdash; Kpalion(talk) 11:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


 * During the discussion, another possible move has been suggested: to Poland Is Not Yet Lost, which is probably the most commonly known English name of the Polish national anthem, albeit not its official title. This option is supported by Naming conventions (use English) and Official names. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Survey

 * Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with  or  , then sign your comment with  . Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.


 *  Weak Oppose Support move to Poland Is Not Yet Lost - Really needs to be some kind of evidence either way. The move proposal seems to make more of a case for Poland Is Not Yet Lost as the title as it is, according to the proposal, better known in the English-speaking world. Narson (talk) 13:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC) - Altered !vote to support the alternative now it is there. Narson (talk) 14:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: My point is that if we had to use an English title, then Poland Is Not Yet Lost might be preferable to Dąbrowski's mazurka. But the Wikipedia standard for national anthems seems to be that native official titles are used for page names, so for the sake of consistency, I suggest a move as proposed above. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 16:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * No, our standard is, as elsewhere, to call the compostion what English-speakers call it. In the case of the Marseillaise, that is what English-speakers call it. Evidence? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support either move – although I originally suggested the official Polish title, I'm also OK with the English translation of the incipit. What I object to is the current page name which is an awkward hybrid where English grammar is applied to two Polish words. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support previous statement – I agree. The current title is awkward and not familiar to an English speaker.  We should either use the official Polish title or Poland is not yet Lost for the title of article.  I would pledge full support for the latter if it was the English translation of the official title, but it is not, so Mazurek Dąbrowskiego should be considered as well.  TFCforever (talk) 02:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Mazurka (plural mazurkas) is an English word, derived from the Polish. If you read about your native country in a foreign language, it is preferable to get used to that sort of thing. Grammatically correct Polish should be (but probably will not be ;->) found on the Polish WP; it should not be expected here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose Mazurek Dąbrowskiego as not English. I have no particular preference between the three English forms proposed. I recall seeing "Poland Has Not Yet Perished" before, and it sounds like a marginally better translation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support for Mazurek Dąbrowskiego if consistency forces us to adopt that name. Strong oppose to Poland Has Not Yet Perished, as it's not that song's title. Many Americans are known as Yanks, which doesn't mean we should move the article on Americans to Yankees (or combine the two).  // Halibutt 14:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support for Mazurek Dąbrowskiego. Oppose in strongest terms Poland Has Not Yet Perished--Molobo (talk) 20:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Poland Is Not Yet Lost as per links from user:Kpalion in discussion area. Iamaleopard (talk) 02:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
It does seem from the proposer's own comments that the page should instead be moved to Poland Is Not Yet Lost. That this is not its official name is quite irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 02:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I included Poland Is Not Yet Lost in the move request as an alternative target page name. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 23:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem with that is that people have already voted on the earlier proposal, and it's now not clear what they were voting on. Oh well, done now, the closing sysop will just have to sort it out. Andrewa (talk) 03:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point, Andrewa. I notified the users who had voted prior to this change. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 08:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As an example, Time seems to be consistent in it's use of Poland Is Not Yet Lost:, , , , ,. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 23:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 01:38, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggested name at least twice as popular in the English language. Statistics:
 * Google advanced search, excluding all Wikis for "Poland Is Not Yet Lost" Results, about 1,560 for "Poland Is Not Yet Lost" -Wiki.


 * Google advanced search, excluding all Wikis for "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" in the English language only. Results, about 2,280 English pages for "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" -Wiki. Nearly twice as popular.

--Poeticbent talk  18:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Google advanced search, excluding all Wikis for "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" in general terms. Results, about 34,800 for "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" -Wiki. Twenty times more popular.


 * Oppose. No new arguments, but (sigh) let's deal with them again. The two English Google searches are too close to call; Nearly twice is not a significant statistical difference in this context. The one that includes Polish pages of course favours the Polish name above the English; Completely irrelevant. This could almost be a candidate for perennial proposals. Andrewa (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Support. The nominator. Suggested native name of the Polish anthem is the internationally accepted norm for all anthems in languages other than English. See also, statistics featured earlier and a plethora of Wikipedia articles about different national anthems. I'm asking for the recognition of the fact that this is the direction we've already taken as community. There's no reason to single out Poland for anything different than the norm. --Poeticbent talk  20:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Strongly oppose Merely looking at these pages of google results shows one thing immediately: the hits ain't in English. Removing polska and polski fromPoeticBent's searches, as here reduces the hits from 35K to 8K. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:06, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That is still higher than the 1.5k for "Poland Is Not Yet Lost" -Wiki — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 08:30, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The general Google web searches above are pointless, as English use needs to be enforced, e.g. by adding +anthem. In Google Books, English use of "Dombrowski's Mazurka" yields only single digit hits, while "Poland Is Not Lost" +anthem has more than 10 times as many hits. Other than by the lyrics, the song itself is best described in English as "Dombrowski's Mazurka", as e.g. by Poland.pl: Polish National Anthem - Dombrowski's Mazurka, by the White House, or by the Polish Music Reference Center at USC.edu. -- Matthead Discuß   01:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Neutral on "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" vs "Poland Is Not Yet Lost". Both are acceptable to me. The former is much more likely to be listed in country fact sheets where official titles of national anthems in vernacular are used. But when the Polish antem is mentioned in English language books or press articles, the latter seems to be used more. If Google is your oracle, then compare hits in Google Scholar:
 * "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" or "Mazurek Dabrowskiego", 4 hits
 * "Poland Is Not Yet Lost", 33 hits
 * or Google News Archives:
 * "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego" or "Mazurek Dabrowskiego", 3 hits
 * "Poland Is Not Yet Lost", 43 hits
 * I oppose horrid hybrids like "Dąbrowski's Mazurka" or "Dombrowski's Mazurka" though. &mdash; Kpalion(talk) 02:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Why is this translated?
National anthems are not usually translated. Look on Wikipedia: Shche ne vmerla Ukrainy, Marcha Real, Deşteaptă-te, române!, Deutschlandlied, Himnusz, Il Canto degli Italiani, Tautiška giesmė, La Marseillaise, Ja, vi elsker dette landet, Der er et yndigt land, Land der Berge, Land am Strome... see the pattern? This should be at Dąbrowski's Mazurka or Mazurek Dąbrowskiego, or perhaps at the Anthem of Poland. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:49, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Because Naming conventions (use English), I guess. — Kpalion(talk) 21:08, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The anthem's translation leaves a bit to be desired, unless the person was going for some artistic effect. Word choice could be a bit more precise. 66.214.185.231 (talk) 13:24, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, it seems just weird when it's "Dąbrowski's Mazurka". It's "Mazurek Dąbrowskiego". Full stop.

Also, the phonetic transcription seems wrong (but as I've only had a few lessons on transcripting Polish to IPA, I can't say it for sure).

Polish citizen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.75.108.135 (talk) 07:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Where is consistency?
In title, which should be original (Mazurek Dąbrowskiego), "zginęłą" is translated as "lost", but in translation section there is "perished". What more in translation of original text there is "died", despite the fact that "zginęła" and "umarła" mean the same. 79.191.28.153 (talk) 14:01, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Umarła and zginęła both mean "she died", but they have different connotations and are not entirely interchangeable. The former is rather neutral, while the latter suggests a violent and sudden death – a meaning better conveyed in English by "perished" than "died". So in the translation section, where we attempt to render the text as literally as possible, we use "perished" for zginęła and "died" for umarła. In the title of the article, though, we're not using the most literal translation, but the one that is most commonly found in English sources – which happens to be "lost" rather than "perished", although these two are quite close semantically. — Kpalion(talk) 15:26, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Use the official translation
The title makes about as much sense as labeling the national anthem of the United States of America as the o say can you see by the dawn's early light instead of the official title "The Star-Spangled Banner". The CIA's The World Factbook lists the name of the national anthem of Poland as "Mazurek Dabrowskiego" (Dabrowski's Mazurka); English translation of the title is in parentheses, i.e., Mazurek Dabrowskiego in Polish and Dabrowski's Mazurka in English. The English language page about the Polish national anthem, on the Polish government's website, states that the song is "known as Dabrowski's Mazurka or Poland has not perished yet". The title of the article should not be a popularity contest either on wikipedia or by hits on a search. It should be the officially recognized title of the work. Just because a search yields more results doesn't mean the answer is correct. This type of reasoning is a fallacy known as argumentum ad populum. I think the natural search terms in English would be either "polish national anthem" or "national anthem of poland". But the title of the article should be Dabrowski's Mazurka (Mazurek Dąbrowskiego) to show both the official English and Polish spellings.BoBoMisiu (talk) 03:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, the Time links, by Kpalion, point to excerpts of stories from 1939, 1946, 1946, 1956, 1959, and 1981 which don't show any text related to the Polish national anthem.BoBoMisiu (talk) 03:41, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You may open a new article move request, but please read Official names first. — Kpalion(talk) 21:48, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * No, I won't open a new move request yet. I don't see a way of overcoming a century or more of pre-internet linguistic discrimination that dumbs down a title of a work, containing two words that may be too difficult for an English speaker to spell, into a translated incipit of the content of the work. I could understand the use in a pre-internet time. It was more difficult to use the title of the work than to translate it. In those times it was a better way of conveying more meaning but, in the 21st century, a search engine indexes and caches almost all content. So, for now, I'm just writing down my thoughts.BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:22, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. The pronunciation and spelling of the Polish language are quite notoriously difficult for native Enligh speakers, so only it's natural that they try to either translate or Anglicize any Polish words and names they may have to use. I don't think that we should feel offended by this, let alone complain about linguistic discrimination. At the end of the day, it's better if people actually read the Polish-related articles that we write than if they are discouraged by unpronouncable titles. — Kpalion(talk) 07:43, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd support a page move to either Mazurek Dąbrowskiego or Dabrowski's Mazurka. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 18:06, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

More on translation

 * The national anthem of Poland is too significant to be featured in Wikipedia like any other raw piece of foreign text translated from its Polish original anonymously. I question the artistic value of such an attempt. Please use certifiable translation by a recognizable and already published writer. It is a good poem after all, and needs to remain as such. This is not a news report to be treated loosely. My request for a cited translation is therefore very much in order. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 14:42, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * But please, don't get me wrong though. I do not endorse the so-called official translation which can be found on the internet, because it has nothing to do with world-class poetry, and can't even be sung and recorded in absolutely perfect English, as far as I'm concerned. I'm thinking about a poetic translation instead. Poeticbent <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 18:25, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some online research myself, and I think I'm beginning to understand what is going on here. It seems, no accomplished bilingual poet with a track record, has ever made a poetic translation of the Polish anthem that could also be sung beautifully. What a pitty. Not even a Nobel laureate. Perhaps, that's because translating the anthem would be a losing proposition for an artist, considering how precious the original is to the Poles. So in the end, everybody takes a stab at it, and it all sounds rough, inadequate and impossible to sing. <b style="font-family:Papyrus; color:darkblue;">Poeticbent</b> <span style="font-size:7.0pt;color:#FFFFFF;font-weight:bold;background:#FF88AF;border:1px solid #DF2929;padding:0.0em 0.2em;">talk 04:39, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Anonymous Translation Edits
Anonymous translation edits are perfectly acceptable if they are very basic corrections. For example, scholars never reference widely accepted dates such as the outbreak of WW2, etc.

Considering the poem is being translated into English for the benefit of people that do not speak Polish it should correctly express the poem in accepted English idioms. For example the translation 'From the Italian Land to Poland' is a poor and awkward literal translation. While 'ziemi włoskiej' is fine being in the singular in Polish, there's nothing like this in English. It would have to be in the plural: 'From Italian lands to Poland' (furthermore without a definite article). Translating the Polish to 'the Italian land' is the same as literally translating the English plural 'Italian lands' to the obviously wrong 'ziemie włoskiej'.

This is really basic English you don't need an academic reference for. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.11.22.218 (talk) 10:30, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

About IPA
Thank you for IPA adding. But I guess you should add to Modern Official version which is sung actually today. And some IPAs are wrong, for example "prz- " is /pʂ/, not /pʐ/, and also "ł " is actually /w/. And IPA of "Bonaparte" and "Dąbrowski" are also wrong. --Propatriamori (talk) 10:45, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

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