Talk:Pontic Greek

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Could we please get references to the new numbers for Pontic speakers, e.g. 1 million in Greece? --Macrakis 23:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, you can never be sure. As a Pontios myself I can assure you that pontics are ultra shauvinists and very keen on exaggerating about their numbers. Anyway in northen Greece most of 4th generation pontics can no longer communicate or even understand pontic Greek any more. ( Luckyly I am a 3rd generation and my pontic ROCKS !!! ) --User:panosfidis

Pontic and Standard Greek are mostly mutually incomprehensible : That's crap ! Even if you look at the vocabulary list below, most words exist in standard modern Greek too ! It is in my opinion rather a strongly differenciated dialect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.16.157.18 (talk • contribs)

Move to Pontic Greek
There's been recent move warring here? I'm all for simplicity: Pontic Greek. No need for the redundant "...language" tag, as per Naming conventions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:49, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I couldn't perform the move as there's a history. Do we need a formal "requested move" or do I just ask an admin to to it if there's no objections after two-three days? Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:55, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

No objections here - it matches Cypriot Greek. --Telex 10:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

We have to move all Pontic, Tsakonian and Cappadocian. There wasn't a move-warring about the actual name. It was about fixing the double redirects. Miskin 11:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Mutually intelligible?
One of the sources for this very article (Ethnologue) states flatly: "Speakers of Standard Greek cannot understand Pontic". It's my impression that this is the view of most modern Greeks as well, who consider Pontiaka unintelligible without special study. The article, however, says that they are "mutually intelligible to a certain extent". Is there a source for that claim? --Delirium 21:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Greek TV stations often use subtitles when the dialect is heard on screen. Pointlessly, if you ask me. I have no relation to Pontic Greeks whatsoever and still their dialect seems fairly easy to understand.

XVA 07:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There are words that come directly from ancient Greek and differ from modern Greek, but the base is the same. Normally, if you know only modern Greek you can perfectly understand up to 60% of vocabulary, whereas if you know ancient Greek as well, up to 90% of the vocabulary. 87.219.85.149 (talk) 16:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And the linguist's rule of thumb is that 80% makes it a different language (and that's where Cypriot's at on the Swadesh list). You're certainly going to miss a lot in Pontic relying just on Standard Modern Greek; and to those who think Pontic is mutually intelligible because they're reading it in historical orthography, or hearing it in diluted form—try working through the Ophitic (in Turkish orthography) of http://www.ocena.info/ . Opoudjis (talk) 16:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Map where it is being spoken
Could anyone paint an initial draft map pointing the locations where Pontiaka is being used? Later, we can also overlap it on the minority languages map, in the article about Greece. 87.219.85.149 (talk) 16:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Pontiaka vs Pontic Greek
Pontic Greek can mean many things.It's a general adjective and can be even a noun.I am a Pontic greek for example.It's just a translation from greek to English.Pontiaka defines that we speak about the dialect just like we have an article called Arvanitika and Vlachika and not Arvanit or Vlach. --Ioannes Tzimiskes (talk) 14:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * WP follows the English-language literature on the subject. I believe "Pontic Greek" is the usual term in English -- see the publications of Brian Joseph and Tompiadis in English. If you have evidence to the contrary, please give it here. --Macrakis (talk) 14:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Both look fine... why don't you use both, one in parentheses? What does not make sense at all is 'Pontian'. 87.219.84.58 (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Pontic Greek test
Hello, I'm one of active members in Pontic wikipedia in incubiator. I want to ask you, pontic greek have ISO 639-3 (pnt), whether you know how the Pontic Greek acquires ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-1? The Pontic community will be grateful if you help. --ΩΑΡ (talk) 10:08, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Rumka from...?
The origin of the word Rumka, might share the same origin with the word Rum (it is the name of the Greeks in Turkish, esp. those living in Anatolia and Constantinople). If that is true, then Rumka < Ρωμιός [Romios] < Ρωμαίος [Romaios] (=Roman). The byzantine empire and its populations called themselves Βασιλεία των Ρωμαίων (=Empire of the Romans). The descendants of the greek-speaking Byzantines are modern Greeks who are called Rum or Rumka... If there is no objection, please, change the parenthesis of the article. Petros The Hellene (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Rum in Turkish comes from "Rome",  and somehow refered to what used to sometimes be called in english, the "east roman empire", in other words Byzantine empire.  It has acquired a lot of secondary meanings.Eregli bob (talk) 14:39, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Rumka: Romeika. The term Anna Comnena uses in her opening paragraph is βασιλεἰα Ρωμαἰων not βασιλεἰα των Ρωμαἰων. Skamnelis (talk) 12:22, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Alphabets
Any sources on use of Cyrillic? I have some books in contemporary Mariupolitan, which use Дъ and Tъ for /ð/ and /θ/; any indication the same is happening for Pontic? Opoudjis (talk) 16:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Found the answer myself: http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/04/pontic-in-cyrillic-orthography.html Opoudjis (talk) 16:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Whilst we're on the topic, what would be the Pontic reflexes for Η/η and Ω/ω? Also, is Ξ/ξ and Ψ/ψ used at all? --Daniel Blanchette (talk) 02:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Usually η goes to ε and ω stays /o/, but historical orthography keeps them. /ks/ and /ps/ often end up as /kʃ, pʃ/, and historical orthography puts a hacek on them. The Pontic wikipedia orthography takes its lead from the Soviet phonetic Greek orthography, and uses ςς for /ʃ/ and εο, εα for [ø, æ]. Otherwise it follows historical orthography. Opoudjis (talk) 16:40, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Ambiguous - Alphabets
The table seems to suggest that "Υ υ" (i psilon / y psilon) is read [u], as the Latin "u", while the rest of the article seems to suggest that the letter is read "i" as it is in Modern Greek and the Byzantine pronunciation of Classical Greek. Which one is it in Pontiaka? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Omulurimaru (talk • contribs) 18:39, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Romeika
The term "Romeika" is a casual term used by many Greeks to designate the Greek language as a whole and not specific to Pontic. The term is not used to distingish Pontiak from standard Greek. See tha article about Modern Greek. To confirm, somebody who owns a Babiniotis dictionary might look up the term. Andreas (T) 20:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Romayka is a specific Pontic language in the Trabzon area only spoken by islamic Pontic Greeks. There is significant diffrence between Christian Pontic and Muslim Pontic, since the latter never came into contact with written Greek or spoken Modern Greek. Some Greek, German, Dutch and American linguists are currently studying Romeyka. And ofcourse I know Romeika is also a term used for Greek in general, but that is not what this specific Romeyka is about.NeoRetro (talk) 21:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe some clarification is needed here: how do other Pontik-speaking goups call their language themselves? Is it only this muslim group that uses "Romeyka"? Is the spelling with "y" specific for this group? And how do Turks call the various dialects? Is "Rumca" a specifically Turkish term, or do Pontiak speakers use it themselves in their language? Is "Rumca" used for all Pontic dialects, and if not, for which ones? Andreas  (T) 22:06, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Romeyka = Romeika. Rumca is Turkish, but it is used for all Greek speaking people in Turkey, not specificaly Romeyka speakers.NeoRetro (talk) 07:40, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Also the Cretan Muslims in Syria and Lebanon call their Cretan Greek "Romeyka/Romeika/Romeïka" Informationskampagne (talk) 13:46, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

Classification of dialects
The classification of the dialects is unclear. In particular, "Romeyka" appears to be identical to the language of the Of valley, also called "Ophitic", and with the languate described in Ömer Asan. Does this dialect belong to the Eastern or the the Western group? It seems to me that the term Romeyka for a specific? Ophitic ?) dialect is supported by a single original author, Ioanna Sitaridou, who sigles out this dialect apparently without reference to the general aspects of Pontic Greek dialects. Andreas  (T) 14:06, 12 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, as I'm not a linguist. But my father is from Caykara, so I know that they speak the same language in Of ;) I also know Romeyka is a bit diffrent from other Pontic dialects. Ioanna Sitaridou isn't the only one studying Romeyka, she is working together with Dimitris Michelioudakis and there are also other linguists like Pietro Bortone: (Pietro Bortone, Oxford, 2009). Mackridge called it "Mulim Pontic" back in the 80's. NeoRetro (talk) 07:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Sources for number of villages
I agree with 78.182.152.141 that he sources for the number of Turkish villages where Pontic is spoken are indeed sub-standard. One problem is that Pontic is presently in decline, so that it makes no sense to give numbers without dating them. In fact, the data in http://www.karalahana.com/karadeniz/linguistik/romeika.htm are cited from Mackridge, 1987, who again credits P. A. Andrews, Ethnic Groups in the Republic of Turkey, ISBN 9783882264180. I don't have the book and therefore cannot verify the data. These are certainly outdated by now. The other source in karalahana is a glossary and does not give any demographic information. Ethnologue gives summary statistics, no villages, no sources, and no dates.

To give reliable figures, the sources have to be correctly cited and dated. I doubt that there are any reliable statistics for the current distribution of Pontic in Turkey. Andreas (T) 22:26, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

As a citizen of Turkey, i heard people talking this language in Trabzon city by locals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.252.56.99 (talk) 04:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you a linguist? How would you know if they speak this dialect or the Laz language? Or do you also speak it? --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 05:07, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Hello people, Pontian Greek Ömer Asan predicts its spoken 65 villages of Trabzon today. He predicts at least there are 300 000 speakers in Turkey. Can we add this? Regards Manaviko (talk) 03:01, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

A specific article about Romeyka
I really would say that the scientific findings on this area make necessary to write an own article about the Romeyka language. It cannot be subsumed under "Pontic Greek". See the works of Sitaridou and co. Informationskampagne (talk) 13:43, 24 September 2016 (UTC)

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Samples
I think there should be written samples of Pontic Greek across the 3 different alphabets

pronunciation has to be indicated with linguistic symbols or reference to known language
Article says,
 * "Preservation of the ancient pronunciation of 'η' as 'ε' (κέπιν = κήπιον, κλέφτες = κλέπτης, συνέλικος = συνήλικος, νύφε = νύ(μ)φη, έγκα = ἤνεγκον, έτον = ἦτον, έκουσα = ἤκουσα etc.).
 * Preservation of the ancient pronunciation 'ω' as 'o' where Koine Greek received it as 'ου' (ζωμίν = ζουμί, καρβώνι, ρωθώνι etc.)."

The reader cannot understand the editor's statements. What does "'η' as 'ε'" mean? I would favor saying, "'η' as e in señor," a sound not found in English. Clarification is needed on "κέπιν = κήπιον," etc. Is the editor claiming that modern Pontic writers write ε where classical and koine Greek wrote η? And what about the ancient pronunciation of omega. We also must realize that in ancient times all the cities likely had different pronunciations of Greek (& would write it correspondingly different also). IMHO omega is a 2 beat omicron. So it would sound the same as omicron only held twice as long. Such may be true also of eta. It may have been in come cities pronounced as epsilon, but held longer (2 beats). I don't think it is really factual to do much generalization on Greek vowel pronunciation in ancient times, because the different cities had different vowel sounds, just as they do today in different English speaking cities. (Hurt is hoyt, or Hoyt is hurt?) (PeacePeace (talk) 05:39, 22 April 2020 (UTC))


 * It's well-known that eta is pronounced as [i] in most forms of modern Greek (a long low-mid vowel that was raised, then length distinctions were lost). It's saying that the vowel written by eta was not raised in such dialects. AnonMoos (talk) 18:48, 22 April 2020 (UTC)