Talk:Pour le Mérite

Contradiction
The article goes into some detail regarding Baron von Richtofen being denied the medal -- right next to a picture of the man himself wearing one! 69.204.204.15 05:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The article states accurately that Frhr. v. Richthofen was denied the oak leaves (Eichenlaube) to the plM, not the plM itself. The Eichenlaube represent a second, higher award reserved for victorious commanders (and on occasion their top General Staff officers) and Frhr. v. Richthofen was deemed ineligible and given another honor instead. There is no contradiction. 207.38.168.98 03:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I thought there was a contradiction here too, maybe the language should be clearer. 37.174.216.52 (talk) 11:35, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I wonder if there was any discussion, particularly during World War, I of the irony of Germany, while being in a bitter war with France, maintaining the tradition of its highest honor being named in and emblazoned with the French language, rather than German. LeoO3 16:02, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe not. Frederick the Great was culturally Francophile and spoke good French, even while at war against France. J S Ayer (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Just to let you know `Eichenlaub´ is the correct translation for `oak leaves´. `mit Eichenlaube´ refers to an old form of the german Dativ, which is nowadays `mit Eichenlaub´ too.--139.30.128.76 (talk) 17:34, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Please notice: German "Laub" = English "Leaves", but German "Laube" means a "small garden pavillion". "Eichenlaube" would be a pavillion made of oak wood, or possibly a pavillion under the oaks. But it's correct: the grammatic structure "... PlM mit dem Eichenlaube" uses an old form of dativ; today's German "... PlM mit Eichenlaub". --Dioskorides (talk) 18:53, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Possible bad Link
On 8 January 2006 the link to http://www.pourlemerite.org was not working (yielding only an Apache Web Server test page). Jim 01:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * It's working now, and there's |there's some disagreement there if von Luckner ever received the award. Opusaug 17:59, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The contributors at the von Luckner article have removed the reference to the medal there, so I will remove the reference to him from this article. Feel free to revert if you can substantiate. Opusaug 05:19, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Youngest recipient
As youngest recipient the page mentions Ernst Juenger at age 23. I am not aware of possible younger recipients still, but Ace Karl Allmenroeder received his shortly after his 21st birthday (and 2 weeks before his death) in 1917. - Diederik, Feb 6 2006

Leutnant Werner Voss received his Medal five days before his 20th birthday, on April 8th, 1917. The comment about Juenger should be removed. John, Aug 18, 2006.

Oak Leaves
There is a photo of the award with oak leaves, but the article does not mention them. Could someone add some info on them? Seems odd - and the article on General Hutier had a wiki to "oak leaves" that redirected to Iron Cross. He had been presented the oak leaved to his Blue Max in the First World War.Michael Dorosh 20:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Movie
sholdnt the movie Blue Max be mentioned?--Tresckow 05:44, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Civil Class
The civil class is still an existent and quite exclusive award in contempory Germany. This should be included.--85.180.51.81 01:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Similar orders abroad
I introduced the mention of similar orders under the heading "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" because a number of orders in other countries are so similar to the Pour le Merite that the inference of imitation is unmistakable. One of these is the British Order of Merit, which has the same name and the same number of members. It is awarded at the sovereign's discretion. The Order of the Companions of Honour was founded with a higher but still strict numerical limit, so that prime ministers could have a say in conferring such a distinction. To my mind the only reason for mentioning similar orders in other countries is that they seem to be derived from the subject of this article. I think it can be assumed that most if not all nations confer awards for notable accomplishments. J S Ayer (talk) 22:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The brief mention of a Civilian order of the Blue Max
The brief mention of the Civilian order of the Blue Max for Arts and Sciences. Could a link or photo of this medal> A serperate article? Be provided Thanks you! AMSat.080809JANUSROMA (talk) 18:58, 8 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Immelmann was also the first aviator ever to win the award." Is this the proper terminology?  Soldiers do not 'win' medals, they are 'awarded', right?  Jokem (talk) 03:25, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Immelman and "Blue Max"
"Because of Immelmann's renown among his fellow pilots and the nation at large, the Pour le Mérite became known, due to its color and this early famous recipient, as the Blue Max."

This needs a reference, there are several indications that this is urban legend. See http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/other-wwi-aviation/47666-pour-le-merite-curiosities.html#post512962 Ricardo Reis 07:40, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Need citation
O.K. I'll take your word that the nickname didn't come from Immelman; So where did it come from then? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.226.13 (talk) 18:45, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

I have removed from the article the sentence:

''The last (un-official) issued Pour le Mérite was made by Rothe of Vienna in 1964 for Theo Osterkamp in recognition for being named Chancellor of the Order. The medal had the 50 year crown attached to the ribbon above the Order.''

I did this because I could not find any source on-line to confirm this; all Google hits were derivative of this article. The information was added by User:Jerryk50 in this edit, and then modified a few minutes later by the same editor in this edit. I have looked over some of this editor's contributions, and I don't see anything the seems like a problem, so I'm going on the assumption that the information was added in good faith, just, unfortunately, without a supporting citation. Jerryk50 seems to have stopped editing in January, so while I'll put a pointer to this thread on his talk page, I don't expect a response anytime soon.

So... if anyone has a citation which will support this information, please add it back in. The facts which need to be confirmed are:


 * Theo Osterkamp was named (or "considered", according to the first edit) the "Chancellor of the Order"
 * He received a new Pour le Merite in 1964
 * The medal was made by the jeweler Rothe of Vienna
 * The physical description of the medal

Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:45, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I (jerryk50) stopped editing because stuff I added in sincere effort was edited out, so what's the point. I drew nice original drawings, they were removed, I posted my personal photos, they were removed. I disagree with the "online verification" policy. This limits your facts. The 50 year pour le merite was sold by "Der Rittmeister militaria" WEBSITE. I know who bought it. It was one of 12 sets made in honor of Osterkamp. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jerryk50 (talk • contribs) 07:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Last Awarded - contradiction
The infobox indicates that the last award was made on 2 September 1918. However, List of the Pour le Mérite (military class) recipients shows 34 awards (or Oak Leaves) in November 1918, the last of them on the 8th (10 awards). Hamish59 (talk) 12:54, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Design?
It's quite an elegant design. Did Der Alte Fritz design it himself, or someone else? Sca (talk) 18:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)


 * According to the German article, the design was adopted from the Gnadenkreuz, designed by Frederick I of Prussia before he was 10 years old. --79.242.222.168 (talk) 04:55, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Ernst Jünger in both categories
I understand that Ernst Jünger received the civil and military versions of the award but why is he listed in both: the 'Recipients of both classes' and the 'German Army' categories. Shoudldn't he only be in the both classes one? JustOneGuyWithALama (talk) 11:45, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Ernst Jünger didn't receive the civil class of Pour le Merite, but he received the comparable Bavarian Maximilian Order for Science and Art‎. Grimes2 (talk) 19:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

Order ends in 1918?
That's not true. The order continues as a civil class. This goes back to the foundation of the civil class of the order in 1842. http://www.orden-pourlemerite.de/. The whole order existed since 1740, as civil (-1810) and military order. Recipient is for example the civilian Voltaire. Grimes2 (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2021 (UTC)