Talk:Prithviraj Kapoor

Photo
The photo looks to be that of Shashi Kapoor and not of Prithviraj Kapoor. Can somebody verify? - Lost 09:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the photo has a younger Prithviraj Kapoor, of 1929.

Image
Can we use the Non-Free Image File:Prithviraj Kapoor1.jpg in the title of this article? As it is fair use, removing it.--Vssun (talk) 05:12, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think as a Peshawar resident Prithvi would've been able to speak both Pushto and Urdu. The latter language as the regional language of Punjab, as well as NWFP's education system, would've been his medium of written communication. In fact Prithvi was cast, in films, in roles requiring high classic Urdu given his enunciation and accent. User: Moarrikh 23:22, 24 November 2011

Pathan/Pashtun ethnicity of Prithviraj Kapoor
User:Saladin1987 keeps erasing the Pathan/Pashtun references from this article. Before him was the now banned (User:PISCOSOUR786) who was doing the same deleting of Pathan. Every reliable published source I come across mentions that Prithviraj Kapoor was a Pathan/Pashtun.  For this Hindu Pathan family, actors belonged to the 'debauched' world of wandering street performers and nautanki groups, people outside the pale of society. ... He might have had to stand a long time had the gateman of the studio not been a Pathan. Prithvi spoke to him in Pashto. The guard, Behramshah, happy to discover a fellow Pathan, let him in and advised him to stand in line with the extras. Prithviraj Kapoor represented the mental make-up of Pathans of North-West Frontier Province through another play called Pathan In 1927, Prithviraj Kapoor abandoned his law studies, left his wife and child behind in northwestern border town Peshawar (now in Pakistan) and headed for Bombay. He was 21 years old, and started work as an extra for one rupee a day. Kapoor, a Hindu Pashtun, made it. He named one of his earliest plays Pathan, which is the story of a Muslim and his Hindu friend. It is a well established fact that Prithviraj Kapoor was Pathan from Peshawar. The person who keeps deleting/erasing this is obviously showing everyone that she is a racist vandal. It is just a waste of time and future embarrasment for removing this well sourced information from the article.--Fareed30 (talk) 03:54, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Shammi Kapoor (son of Prithviraj): "I was born in Bombay... my parents belonged to Peshawar, they were born there then they entered Bombay... we all belong to a community called the Hindu Pathan... Muslim Pathan... I was born in Bombay...." Phone Interview with Shammi Kapoor 20/10/07. Youtube link --Fareed30 (talk) 02:01, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Question: Are there any independent reliable sources that verify his ethnicity? The rediff one is not particularly reliable. The google books one doesn't explicitly say he was a Pathan (just that his play "represented" pathans". There were plenty of Punjabi Hindus in Peshawar so merely being from Peshawar is not enough. Lacking better sources, it may be better to not say anything about his ethnicity whatsoever and merely leave "from Peshawar" in. --regentspark (comment) 13:48, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * regentpark, the rediff is excerpted from "The Kapoors: The First Family Of Indian Cinema by Madhu Jain, published by Penguin Books India", look at the very bottom of that site. Madhu Jain completed an extensive research on the Kapoors and then published this info so how can you say it is not reliable? What more reliable source can you find other than that? On top of this, Shammi Kapoor clearly stated that they were Pathans and not even once mention any Punjabi.
 * Show me your source for the "plenty of Punjabi Hindus" living in Peshawar. Peshawar was never part of Punjab so where do you get "Punjabi" from? The language and culture of Peshawar is that of Pathans. You have to know Pashto language in order to suvive there. Him being Pathan is important information which must be included and it's well established, everyone in Bollywood knows that he was Pathan. There is no source that contradict this info. It is just this anti-Pathan user:Saladin1987 who wants this info removed and now you're some what supporting his cause. He is just being racist and you're not able to see this. Based on what he revealed to me, including his view point, his attitude towards Pathans, his writing style, his behaviour, his location, and other stuff, I think I know this guy from chat rooms. The guy in chat rooms was an ultra Pakistani nationalist living in Australia who hated everyone, especially Indians and Afghans.--Fareed30 (talk) 18:59, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Whatever his or her biases may or may not be, saladin1987 has compiled a long list of "Punjabi" references below which is going to be hard to contest. Your rediff source is very weak. All it says is that Kapoor spoke Pashto, not surprising for someone from Peshawar and that the guard was happy to see a "fellow Pathan" based on the fact that Kapoor spoke Pashto. Given that Peshawar was a part of Ranjit Singh's empire before it became a part of India, I don't really think we need to see a reference for the presence of many Punjabis there. Apologies, but your case seems rather weak. --regentspark (comment) 19:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Saladin1987's references below are selectively picked junk unreliable web-links and they deal with other people. My source is not rediff but his very own son Shammi Kapoor as well as Mahdu Jain and Baburao Patel (Editor and Publisher of the top Cinema magazine of the 30's, 40's and 50's, Film India, about Prithviraj Kapoor. ). Prithviraj Kapoor wrote to Patel:

""Baburao, do not provoke this Pathan. If there is no place for me in the Indian films I shall swim across the seven seas to Hollywood and make it there as an actor"."


 * If he was Punjabi he would have said "this Punjabi". Jain's book about the Kapoors is more authoritive than everything presented by Saladin1987. Btw, Mahdu is a follower of Jainism and not a Pathan, which means she's not POV-pushing or anything. You seem to be unfamiliar with this area. Only for a very short time Peshawar was occupied by Sikh military forces but that is irrelevant because Sikhs didn't bring any cultural change and there's no record of mass movement of Punjabis into Peshawar. You're creating theories about "many Punjabis" in Peshawar. You're not being neutral at all because you're totally rejecting everything I present and blindly supporting Saladin1987. You said "Hindu Punjabis" and now you left the "Hindu" out but just said "Punjabis". It's ok if you're not familiar with this area. We can take this to an arena and see who wins.--Fareed30 (talk) 20:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not a question of who wins or loses but what's right. The reality is that your references are weak. Perhaps so are Saladin's. Both of you have "he said/she said" references in support of your positions but neither of you have categorical references. Personally, I think Saladin has a slightly stronger case and, given the weakness of all the sources, the correct action is the one that Saladin is proposing (no mention of ethnicity). Since this is a BLP, I suggest you seek wider input before you restore the ethnicity (I'm removing it). --regentspark (comment) 19:20, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Links for Punjabi ethnicity i will paste for every kapoor seperately

Prithviraj Kapoor : [][][][] only punjabi films Kapoor starred in the legendary religious Punjabi film Nanak Naam Jahaz Hai (1969), a film so revered in Punjab that there were lines many kilometres long to purchase tickets. He also starred in the Punjabi films Nanak Dukhiya Sub Sansar (1970) and Mele Mittran De (1972).

Raj Kapoor: [] In this source it mentions that kapoor house was mini punjab and people were punjabi [] here they say lohri was taken very seriously which is exclusivly indian punjabi dance not pathan dance. Also in this articles if you serach punjabi you will find he spoke in punjabi to his daughter in laws also expected punjabi food from them, and also has mentioned various punjabi phrases in this book

Shashi kapoor : [] over here shashi mentions that his mom use to ask him to write letters to his father in punjabi and he speaks punjabi in the letter too which rejects the idea that he spoke pashto as he was born in pashto and raj kapoor was the only one who was born in peshwar and might have known pashto [] here its mentioned that he spoke with dilip kumar in peshwari punjabi which is hindko which means he and dilip both spoke hindko and not pashto .. raj kapoor was hindko punjabi

Randhir Kapoor: [] here randhi kapoor says that he is punjabi deep rooted all his family is. pathan was something culturlaly [] here randhir kapoor clearly states that they are not pathans from peshwar and are punjabi and are urban people .. meaning they think that pathans are village people or are teh ones who lived in peshwar. he says they are not pathan from peshwar, now if he was ethncially pathan than i think living in city doesnt change the ethnicity

Rishi Kapoor:[] here both the pathaniyat and punjabiyat have been used for kapoors [] here he learns punjabi from his aunts meaningg his aunts are all punjabi that is from mother side punjabi orgiin in indian websites and tv channels too [] all bollywood know that they are punjab with pathan culture if u wana add

Kareena Kapoor Karishma Kapoor: [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] []

other links that they were hindko punjabis are [] [— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned] comment added by Saladin1987 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC) Saladin1987 15:46, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: I've asked Sitush (here) to take a look at the sources above and see if he can figure out Kapoor's ethnicity. --regentspark (comment) 12:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll do that but am not going to be around much (if at all) over the next couple of days. - Sitush (talk) 12:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries. Mr. Kapoor is not likely to be concerned about a delay in establishing his ethnicity. If we don't hear from you in a couple of days, I'll ping you again. :)

Since Sitush won't get around to looking at the refs for a few days, I hope he won't mind my butting in, nor, I hope will Mr Kapoor. Here are some references of which the first two are most reliable:
 * Quote (pp 9–10): "Prithviraj Kapoor the patriarch of Kapoor family was born in middle class landlord family of Punjab's Lyallpur town (now in Pakistan) on 3rd November 1906. After schooling from Lyallpur, he got admission in Edwardes college in Peshawar where he carved out a niche for himself as an actor. He got married at 18 which impeded his law studies and consequently he started chasing his cherished dream of acting. In 1928 winter, leaving behind his wife and children with his aunt he left for Bombay. His aunt gave him financial  assistance at this stage. In Bombay he joined the Imperial Film Company in 1929 in the Era of silent films. (pp 9–10)"
 * Quote: "We had once gone to Lyallpur in western Punjab, now in Pakistan, which is my father's birthplace. My great grandfather was the tehsildar there, and the villagers held the family in great respect. (p. 193)"
 * Quote: "Prithviraj Kapoor was born in Samundari, near Lyallpur now called Faisalabad, in Punjab. After schooling in Lyallpur and Lahore, he went to Peshawar where his father was a Police official. He graduated from Edwardes College, studied Law a year before the celluloid lured him to Bombay in 1928. An interesting anecdote is told of his racial tenacity. Baburao Patel, editor of the top cinema magazine of the 1930's, Film India, remarked to him: "There is no place in the films for uncouth brawny Pathans who think they can make it as actors!" To this the young Prithviraj replied: "Baburao do not provoke this Pathan. (p 142)"
 * Quote: "The seed of Prithviraj Kapoor's career was planted in a little village estate called Samundri, in the Lyallpur district of the Punjab. Young Prithvi Nath, grandson of a Hindu Pathan zamindar, enacted anecdotes from the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata inside the buffalo shed. ... The grand old Diwan Saheb was a strict disciplinarian, instilling democratic values in his kith and kin as well as in his large retinue. Each evening, little 'Prithvi' was made to polish and light the innumerable kerosene lamps of the entire estate. He would rub shoulders with the sweeper's son while playing kabbadi in the fields. This was the foundation of his love for the outdoors and sports, and it inculcated in the young man the belief that all men are equal in the sight of God. Later he went to college in Peshawar and Lahore, where he was always the first to thrash out any communal ill-will."
 * Quote: "Prithviraj Kapoor was born in Samundari, near Lyallpur now called Faisalabad, in Punjab. After schooling in Lyallpur and Lahore, he went to Peshawar where his father was a Police official. He graduated from Edwardes College, studied Law a year before the celluloid lured him to Bombay in 1928. An interesting anecdote is told of his racial tenacity. Baburao Patel, editor of the top cinema magazine of the 1930's, Film India, remarked to him: "There is no place in the films for uncouth brawny Pathans who think they can make it as actors!" To this the young Prithviraj replied: "Baburao do not provoke this Pathan. (p 142)"
 * Quote: "The seed of Prithviraj Kapoor's career was planted in a little village estate called Samundri, in the Lyallpur district of the Punjab. Young Prithvi Nath, grandson of a Hindu Pathan zamindar, enacted anecdotes from the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata inside the buffalo shed. ... The grand old Diwan Saheb was a strict disciplinarian, instilling democratic values in his kith and kin as well as in his large retinue. Each evening, little 'Prithvi' was made to polish and light the innumerable kerosene lamps of the entire estate. He would rub shoulders with the sweeper's son while playing kabbadi in the fields. This was the foundation of his love for the outdoors and sports, and it inculcated in the young man the belief that all men are equal in the sight of God. Later he went to college in Peshawar and Lahore, where he was always the first to thrash out any communal ill-will."
 * Quote: "The seed of Prithviraj Kapoor's career was planted in a little village estate called Samundri, in the Lyallpur district of the Punjab. Young Prithvi Nath, grandson of a Hindu Pathan zamindar, enacted anecdotes from the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata inside the buffalo shed. ... The grand old Diwan Saheb was a strict disciplinarian, instilling democratic values in his kith and kin as well as in his large retinue. Each evening, little 'Prithvi' was made to polish and light the innumerable kerosene lamps of the entire estate. He would rub shoulders with the sweeper's son while playing kabbadi in the fields. This was the foundation of his love for the outdoors and sports, and it inculcated in the young man the belief that all men are equal in the sight of God. Later he went to college in Peshawar and Lahore, where he was always the first to thrash out any communal ill-will."
 * Quote: "The seed of Prithviraj Kapoor's career was planted in a little village estate called Samundri, in the Lyallpur district of the Punjab. Young Prithvi Nath, grandson of a Hindu Pathan zamindar, enacted anecdotes from the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata inside the buffalo shed. ... The grand old Diwan Saheb was a strict disciplinarian, instilling democratic values in his kith and kin as well as in his large retinue. Each evening, little 'Prithvi' was made to polish and light the innumerable kerosene lamps of the entire estate. He would rub shoulders with the sweeper's son while playing kabbadi in the fields. This was the foundation of his love for the outdoors and sports, and it inculcated in the young man the belief that all men are equal in the sight of God. Later he went to college in Peshawar and Lahore, where he was always the first to thrash out any communal ill-will."

My analysis: It seems it is clear that he was born in Lyallpur in the West Punjab, which is almost 200 miles from Peshawar. It also seems reasonably clear that his grandfather was a landowner in Lyallpur. Ethnicity is related to language and culture (not DNA and "looks."). In some of the later references, the "Hindu Pathan," bit is mentioned, although these references are less reliable. (The even later Indian news magazine and newspapers, which I did not bother to quote, and the ones currently in the article, are the least reliable.) An ethnic Pathan, by definition, would need to speak Pashto. If Prithviraj Kapoor's grandfather had emigrated to the Punjab from the NWFP or Afghanistan, then a source will need to establish that the family was Pashto speaking. (Given that the first Census of British India was conducted in 1871, perhaps there is a record somewhere of their names and mother tongues). Otherwise, the notion of Hindu Pathan ancestry, at least from my analysis of the evidence, does not seem credible. Indeed the idea of a Pashto speaking family turning up in Lyallpur ca. 1860s or 70s and becoming landowners (not soon after the NWFP became a part of British India (1849)) is not very credible either (though it is not beyond the pale of the possible). Finally, although this is my personal view, claiming "Pathan" ancestry has been fashionable among both Muslims and (former) Hindus from the West Punjab, especially since 1947. Unless, there is hard evidence, and here there is not, I would not put much stock in it. Bottom line: With the available evidence, we cannot say Prithviraj Kapoor (and by extension his descendants) are of Pathan ancestry. Legends and stories inevitably sprout up around famous personalities. I chalk this ancestry bit up to that. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  17:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Flower&fowler is basically doing somekind of WP:OR or WP:SYNTHESIS, which is not allowed in Wikipedia. He/she doesn't seem to be familiar with the history, cultures and laws of this particular area. First of all, the entire Punjab was an important part of Afghanistan (see Durrani Empire) until the Sikhs gained independence in the early 19th century. That means Afghans (also known as Pashtuns and Pathans) were the legal land owners in the Punjab, which happen to include Hindu Afghan land owners and Prithviraj's father or grandfather was one of those. Secondly, the founder of Afghanistan (Ahmad Shah Durrani) is said to be born in Multan, Punjab, but that doesn't make him a Punjabi. About language, Persian was the official language of Punjab until replaced by English in the mid-1800s. If we were to believe that "Ethnicity is related to language and culture" then we would label all Sikhs (Punjabis) as ethnic Persians because Persian was their official language. Punjabi is only spoken by ethnic Punjabis as their mother tongue, even until today. It has never been used as a lingua franca. Thirdly, millions of Afghan refugees (Pathans) were born and raised in Pakistan over the last 30 years but they're NOT Punjabis or even Pakistanis. They're still Afghan citizens and ethnic Pathans. In the case of Pathans, ethnicity is passed down from father to children. The Pathans do not only use Pashto but also Dari (Persian), Urdu, English and some other smaller languages. Therefore, language is not a determining factor because people are free to learn new languages or switch to a language that is useful in an area where they live.
 * Nobody is disputing the birth place of Prithviraj, and that's irrelevant to his ethnicity. You'll not find a single source that mentions Prithviraj's ethnicity as Punjabi so there's absolutely no dispute. The following are top quality sources to prove that Prithviraj was in fact a Pathan.
 * His very own son (Shammi Kapoor) confirmed that Prithviraj was Pathan, and further explained that their ancestors originated from Kabul, Afghanistan.
 * Madhu Jain already did an extensive research on the Kapoors and she clarified that Prithviraj was in fact a Pashto-speaking Pathan.
 * All other books clearly state that Prithviraj was a Pathan and yet doesn't mention any Punjabi so we must to do the same in Wikipedia.--Fareed30 (talk) 19:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've done some preliminary digging here and it strikes me that (a) reliable sources do not agree; (b) various people in this discussion have applied personal knowledge to extend some points or to critique others; and (c) there is confusion about what constitutes ethnicity. Finally, I've yet to find any evidence that the issue under debate even has any relevance to Kapoor's notability or even his career. My initial thoughts, which I first formulated a few hours ago and have now hardened, are that the information should simply be omitted. - Sitush (talk) 19:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Which reliable sources do not agree? We're specifically dealing with Pathan ethnicity here so you need to focus on that only and forget about ethnicities of other parts of the world. To some people (i.e. Punjabis), Prithvirah's ethnicity or background may not be appealing but to others it may be an important issue. If you look at all the Hollywood famous celebrities, they each have such information. This guy (Prithviraj) is one of the founders of India's Bollywood so it's appropriate that we include his background. Besides, he's not the only Pathan Bollywood celebrity. There are dozens of others, including Shahrukh Khan, Kader Khan, Feroz Khan, and so on. If we're gonna omit such facts then the same must be done to all other Bollyood celebrities.
 * I've just noticed that it's only non-Pathan Indians and Pakistanis who want to remove Pathan, and it probably upsets them. I'd like to see some non-Indians and non-Pakistanis post comments.--Fareed30 (talk) 19:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I am neither Indian nor Pakistani. Wikipedia does not exist to glorify people or to satisfy the sentiments of a particular community. As a general rule, if reliable sources disagree then we show all points of view but that tends to be relegated as a consideration where the issue potentially affects living people. In any event, if a point has no bearing on the notability of a person - that is, the things that the person is notable for doing - then there is no requirement to include it. It doesn't look as if reliable sources have much of an issue with where he was born but beyond that we have problems. The same issues may not be problematic for other people because4 the sources may agree or the subjects are dead and have no notable living relatives. - Sitush (talk) 20:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Your contributions made me think that you're Indian and I'm not talking about Indian citizen. You failed to show me which reliable sources disagree. Can you show me at least one RS that state Prithviraj being a Punjabi? I don't see any RS that has an issue with his Pathan background so why are you having a problem with it? You assume that anyone born in Punjab must be Punjabi but that's wrong. For example, Hasnat Khan was born in Punjab but he's Pathan according to RSs. The same is the case with many other Pathans, including Prithviraj, who was born in Punjab but he's Pathan according to RSs. Why can't you just accept this fact and move on?--Fareed30 (talk) 21:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't deal with people who do not assume good faith. - Sitush (talk) 22:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Let me put it more bluntly, Fareed30. Those edits are not going into the article because they are not based in reliable sources and because they are not relevant. The putative Pathan ancestry of a grandfather who lived in Lyallpur is not relevant to Kapoor's life or career. Let me also suggest, that you not make irrelevant conjectures about a Wikipedia editor's real-life persona. It is an absolute Wikipedia no-no. You try that one more time, and I'll take you to ANI. Don't say you weren't warned. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  23:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It looks like this has to go to ANI because you removed important and undisputed information from the article of a well known Pathan. You and Sitush are focusing on me when you should be focusing on the specific edits in question. Saladin1987 wrote unverifiable nonsense above (appears more like lies) and cited the same 2009 book by Madhu Jain over and over and over. You helped Saladin1987 erase the ethnicity of Prithviraj on the bases that it is disputed but it's not. I asked to present the source which disagrees but nothing is being presented. So far we have established that Prithviraj was Pathan and nobody has ever disputed this. I'm now going to prove that even his wife was a Pathan.
 * Raj Kapoor states in "Raj Kapoor: Speaks", by Ritu Nanda, "I think it all started because of my itimacy with my mother who was young, beautiful, and had the sharp features of a Pathan woman." --Fareed30 (talk) 23:58, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment: Fareed30, there is plenty of evidence and discussion above that raises questions about a Pathan ethnicity of Kapoor and you seem to be ignoring all that. Fowler, in particular, has provided numerous references and a detailed explanation that you should read carefully. Bottom line, currently we make no mention of Kapoor's ethnicity in the article - if you want to add it, it is incumbent on you to verifiably demonstrate it using reliable secondary sources. (I've wikilinked the two - a guideline and a policy - you might want to read them.) Accusing other editors of bias is not a substitute for sources. --regentspark (comment) 01:02, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This is what Fowler wrote, I've read it and it supports the Pathan. If someone ever disputed it then the burden is on you to show that he was not Pathan. Now what do you mean by "verifiably demonstrate it using reliable secondary sources"? Are you saying that all the RSs I've shown so far are not enough? If so then what should I bring to satisfy you?--Fareed30 (talk) 01:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Raj Kapoor taking about his mother's Pathan looks or Shammi Kapoor talking about "Hindu Pathan" "Muslim Pathan" don't qualify as reliable secondary sources. Nor do many of Saladin's sources, which stress the Punjabi aspect of the Kapoor family, qualify as reliable secondary sources for that matter. Frankly, I doubt if reliable secondary sources exist for this sort of thing and we're pretty much saddled with an uncertain ethnicity situation. --regentspark (comment) 01:36, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * To you it doesn't because you may be surprised by the fact that Prithviraj was Pathan but to Wikipedia my RSs qualify because the evidence is overwelming. Raj Kapoor's mother had blue eyes, this is very common among Pathans. His great-grandaughter (Karisma Kapoor) has the same eyes and she looks like a typical Pathani girl. Look at the Pathan girls in the lower right corner of this image. But that's besides the point already made.
 * This is what Saladin wrote, I've read it but instead of Prithviraj, he's telling us about his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Most of them were born in Mumbai, India, so obviously they were brought up differently than their Pathan forefathers. This article is about Prithviraj and not about his children or great-grandchildren. Saladin excessively cites the same 2009 Mahdu Jain book over and over after each line but nothing can be verified. Saladin's other sources explain that the Kapoors didn't even speak Punjabi language.
 * Like I said above, this issue will go to ANI so that neutral admins/editors look at what's going on. We should not erase without a trace Prithviraj's ethnicity or family background just because it may upset a few editors. Whoever removed the Pathan information is being unreasonable. I feel that he's pretty much convinced by the sources but still wanted to remove it for personal pleasure or to try to suck me into an edit war but I'm not going to fall for that. I asked to show me any RS that states Prithviraj being Punjabi but none were shown.--Fareed30 (talk) 03:42, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It doesn't help that a search in Google Books for: "hindu pathan" OR "hindu pashtun" inpublisher:Oxford | inpublisher:Cambridge | inpublisher:Harvard | inpublisher:Columbia | inpublisher:Routledge | inpublisher:Brill | inpublisher:"Taylor and Francis" | inpublisher:Chicago | inpublisher:California | inpublisher:"John Wiley" | inpublisher:"Pearson" | inpublisher:"Oxford India" | inpublisher:"Penguin" | inpublisher:"Alfred A. Knopf" | inpublisher:"Vintage"  (with time range set for the last 50 years) turns up empty.  What does that tell you?  Forget the myth about the Kapoors' blue eyes, the category "hindu pathan" or "hindu pashtun" doesn't exist in scholarly sources of the last 50 years.  As for the eyes, I had the privilege of sitting next to Raj Kapoor during a 3-hour Pan Am flight over East Asia in the late 1970s.  I had an enjoyable time talking to him, but I can tell you categorically, his eyes weren't blue.  They were gray with streaks of green and hazel.  Believe me, I know blue eyes.  The Kara...etcetc woman doesn't have them and neither do most people in Afghanistan or Pakistan or India, when they claim they have blue eyes.   (some Kalasha of Chitral being a possible exception)  Not that any of this matters, we all left Africa 60,000 years ago, and we all looked alike, had protective melanin in our skin and in our eyes.  How does skin-deep adaptation to climate and genetic drift produce culture?  I think it is time for you to stop wasting our time palavering.  This is my last reply here.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:12, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You wrongfully joined two separate terms to construct a single term and that's why you can't get any results. The term "Hindu" refers to anyone who adheres to Hinduism and that includes people of every race. The term "Pathan" refers to a specific group of people who live outside of Afghanistan, mainly in and around the Peshawar area. Pathan also means Afghan (both terms are synonymous) and has been mentioned since the 16th century. For example, the 16th century scholar Ferishta states: " The people of India call them Patán; but the reason for this is not known. But it occurs to me, that when, under the rule of Muhammadan sovereigns, Musulmáns first came to the city of Patná, and dwelt there, the people of India (for that reason) called them Patáns—but God knows" . But I'm not even concerned about adding "Hindu", only about adding "Pathan" because it is established by clear and convincing evidence that he was in fact a member of that group. Whether someone believes this or not is another issue and it doesn't justify removing it from the article.
 * There are Pathans who follow Sikhism, Hinduism, Christianity and Judaism. They proudly identify selves as Pathans, speak Pashto and follow Pashtunwali codes just like Pathans who are Muslims. Before they accepted Islam, they most likely were Buddhist, Hindus and pagans. That's according to those who have visited the area in pre-Islamic days (Chinese scholars) and also there have been numerous Buddhist and Hindu sites found in the same region in recent times. The Kalash people were converted to Islam in the late 19th century by Afghan King Abdur Rahman Khan, and before that they practiced paganism.
 * About the physical structure of Pathans, I was not focusing on blue eyes but on everything. I was trying to say that blue, green and hazel eyes are very common among Pathans of that region, and that all of the Kapoors have Pathan physical structure. This further leaves out any doubts. We don't need to get into this. FYI, I don't believe in "we all left Africa 60,000 years ago" because no where is this mentioned in any Hindu scripture, Torah, Bible, or Quran.--Fareed30 (talk) 00:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * This here is very important to this discussion: "By the time of Ahmad Shah's ascendancy, the Pashtuns included many groups whose origins were obscure ; most were believed to have descended from ancient Aryan tribes, but some, such as the Ghilzai, may have once been Turks (see Ethnic Groups, ch. 2). They had in common, however, their Pashtu language." As you can see that many groups (like the Kapoors of Peshawar in this case) identified selves as Pashtuns (Pathans) since the mid 1700s.--Fareed30 (talk) 02:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:SYNTHESIS. - Sitush (talk) 04:42, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * WP:SYNTHESIS doesn't apply to me. The fact is that he identified self as Pathan. "Prithviraj, who always considered himself a Pathan first and foremost," (books: Shashi Kapoor Presents the Prithviwallahs, pg. 36; Frontier facets: Pakistan's North-West Frontier Province, by M. Athar Tahir, pg. 142.). See also His children confirmed that he was Pathan.   There are secondary published reliable sources that state he was Pathan   and that has never been challenged or disputed by anyone. Only a couple of Wikipedia editors refuse to accept it. I'm giving you time to think and for you to restore the Pathan background in this article.--Fareed30 (talk) 02:04, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't think we need more time to think. The "Hindu Pathan" is not getting in with the sources that you have thus far supplied. Please take it to ANI. While I'm at it, let me also be clear: the Hindu Pathan bit is an especially insidious kind of nonsense in the Indian context: a large multi-ethnic country with an egalitarian constitution whose citizens come in various shapes and sizes, looks and skin colors, doesn't grant recognition, let alone special privilege, to phenotypical distinctions imagined by a few. Certainly, Wikipedia shouldn't be party to it, even if some gullible Indian journalists are reproducing it. Again, take it to ANI or any other forum, but your edits are unreliable and aren't going in. Goodbye, Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Prithviraj was born in British Raj (now Pakistan). He spent more than 20 years in what is now Pakistan. He belonged to the Pathan ethnic group and in Pakistan this group is the 2nd largest. It is important that we keep such relevant information in the early years section of the article. As I said I'm not interested in "Hindu" but just want the article to mention that he identified self as "Pathan". You and RegentsPark deliberately, with full understanding, removed the properly sourced Pathan claim from his article   when such claim has never been challenged or disputed by anyone. Your action regarding that may constitute Vandalism and when I have free time I'll notify the admins who are familiar with this issue. I'm busy renovating one of my bathrooms.--Fareed30 (talk) 18:41, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * All over Wikipedia actor articles state ethnicity and nationality; the insidious nonsense is that one can't call an Indian a Pashtun when they are. Let's see everyone battle to get this out of Tom Cruise's article, "Cruise is of Irish,[9] German and English ancestry." Oh wait, he's not a Pashtun, no battles. --(AfadsBad (talk) 16:37, 1 October 2013 (UTC))

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Date of birth/death
I have used the Britannica citation that was already present in the article to verify the dates of birth and death. People have been fiddling around with these for ages and things had become contradictory. The only other source we had, and that only for his birth, was an article from the New Indian Express - a not terribly reliable publication and one that contradicted also the image of the centenary poster that we show further down the article.

Bearing in mind the many issues found over the years when it comes to detail in the New Indian Express, I have completely removed it from the article. This means that the mention of caste has also gone - it wasn't particularly important anyway and when I started editing here today the article actually mentioned a caste which had no source at all. - Sitush (talk) 13:15, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

On 29th May 2018, Prithviraj Kapoor's grandson Rishi Kapoor tweeted his death year to be 1971 and not 1972. Hence, this claim is verified by a family member and not any random publishing house. Thus his year of death should actually be 1971 and not 1972. Vrishchik (talk) 05:51, 5 April 2019 (UTC)