Talk:Pub/Archive 1

Advertising?
Ought this:

There are also companies specialising in designing or replicating the perfect pub for you. One such company that has completed over 600 pubs all over the world in The Irish Pub Company. These sort of companies can offer you everything from how to run your pub and who to order from through to what you pub should look like.

To be deleted?

Looks like an advert to me...

Unregistered —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.228.106.137 (talk) 11:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Saloon?
I came across the definition of a saloon, that says it was the "best part of a pub". I hoped that this page would tell me what parts a pub contains.


 * Saloon and Public Bar descriptions now added. SilkTork 22:37, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Irish clichés
Whoever claimed that in Irish bars you hear more mention of saints has either
 * watched too many Father Ted episodes
 * drank a very dodgy pint
 * has been smoking something that has done something to their brain
 * all of the above.

That ludicrous claim (which reads like someone with a clichéd stage-Irish 'catholic Ireland' vision of the emerald isle) has been put where it belongs, in the nearest bin. JTD 03:50 Feb 1, 2003 (UTC)

Yeah it was awful. That's why Irish public house had to go. If there's enough new stuff added here to make it worthwhile having a separate article then it can go back. Mintguy


 * I see it's been added back but the content is trivial to say the least, how about a list of drinks on sale and famous people who have visited English pubs to redress the balance?

I agree with Mintguy's assessment. And have added some info on why Irish pubs are slightly different to English pubs. Less Father Ted, more social, historical and economic. Himselfetc

Notability of pubs
Regarding Notable British public houses section- i think it would be useful to include a short note explaining why a pub is notable, otherwise we could all just stick in our own favourite local (which I suspect is the case with a couple of entries...), which is kind of fine on one level (who is going to start the List of pubs frequented by Wikipedians????), but not too sure about encyclopedic value.... quercus robur 02:37, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Pub-grub
pub grub bit currently reads;

''Pubs in Britain were primarily drinking establishments and little emphasis was placed on the serving of food. The usual fare consisted of specialised English snack food such as pork scratchings along with crisps and peanuts. If a pub served meals they were usually fairly basic dishes such as a ploughman's lunch.''

I can't help but feel that this needs a bit of a rewrite as it seems to be about some mythical 'traditional' pub that has probabaly never really existed. i'm pretty sure pub meals have always been available, and ploughmans lunches were a late 70s invention as the article about them makes clear. quercus robur 01:43, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)

In recent years many pubs do serve an extensive range of food (partly because there is a much higher profit margin on food than drinks). Go back 20 years or more and there were far fewer pubs serving food (as in cooked meals), although the bar snacks mentioned above were (and are) available in almost every 'boozer'. And there are still plenty of pubs where your food choice is limited to pork scratchings, crisps, nuts, etc. Warminster Joe (talk) 08:45, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Requirements for multiple brewers' beers
Currently reads;

''However; by law, pubs must offer at least one alternative beer (known as a guest beer) from another brewery and that beer must be a cask conditioned? real ale.''

Can this be verified? i know loads of pubs that don't have guest beers or real ales available. quercus robur 12:22, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * I added that bit, and I see that I was not entirely correct. The law states that landlords of tied pubs (i.e. pubs owned by breweries) must *allow* their landlords to source at least 1 cask conditioned ale (or one bottled-conditioned beer, as amended in 1997) from a source other than the brewry who own the pub. The market today is significantly different than it wa in 1990 when the law first came into effect. At that time the majority of pubs were owned by breweries. Today many pubs are run by retail chains rather than brewies Mintguy 20:07, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Yeah it sucks doesn't it :-( quercus robur 20:14, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"Pub" vs. "Bar"
What exactly is the difference between a pub and a bar (except for the fact that a bar can be embedded in a hotel or such)? Evercat 21:42, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)


 * Well, I suppose Evercat won't see this, but I'll post a very late reply. Warning: I'm definitely not an authority.  The biggest difference is probably atmosphere.  Pubs tend to be fairly small, local establishments with a regular clientelle.  Bar can mean something like that, but it can also mean something closer to a nightclub, which a pub definitely is not.  Isomorphic 07:47, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Public Houses I think came about after the wars which Britain was embroiled in during the 18th century as well as the Napoleonic wars. This was where widows were given licences to brew beer in their houses and use the front room of their house to sell the beer. This was authorised by act of Parliament in order to provide war widows with some kind of income.

Thus you had authorisation to brew beer and sell it in your house. You were thus making your house open to the public and in turn it was therefore a Public House! Interestingly this is where the term 'hole in the wall' comes from too as many initial Public Houses had a small hole knocked through in the wall in order to enable the widow to sell beer to customers in the front room without actually being in the front room.

Many original Public Houses may still have the original hole in the wall. The Rising Sun in High Wych near Harlow in Essex still has it's original hole.

Now the difference between Public Houses and Bars is that in Scotland, Ireland, etc no such legislation came into force. Thus Irish Pubs for example are actually legally seen as bars rather than Public Houses. Also in Scotland you will see many more "Bars" than "Pubs"!

However the term "pub" is so well ingrained as slang that anyone can call themselves a pub if they have the right decor and atmosphere.

Hope this clears things up. --Pudduh 13:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

To-do
A few things leap to mind which I think would be good to include. The licensing laws and last orders deserve a mention "time gentlemen", etc. Staffing, there's a mention of the owner but not of the bar staff, how about the stereotypical bar maid and customer chatting her up. Often employ students.

At what point did pubs evolve from male-only establishments to having a mix of men and women, and even families? What's the law on children in pubs? The summer pub garden culture. How about the layout, you have the bar (with stools) and then seats - some pubs (did or do) have a family room, or even ladies' lounge, with a seperate side of the bar to serve them, I believe. Presumably before respectable women went to pubs, there would have been prostitutes? Are all pubs equally welcoming, or are some more locals-only?

How about the "traditional" pub interior, with all the dark wood. Pub advertising. Tipping. People are drinking less in pubs - does this mean people are drinking less in general or are they drinking elsewear? Presumably pubs have a colourful history, and a violent one, how about pressgangs and pub brawls. Politicians trying to cash in on the pub image (I'm a man just like you) - like Hague and his boasts of how much he drank.

It seems to me that pubs must be quite cliquey - many are student pubs, with cheap (watered?) beer, others are the haunts of the working classes, others of the middle classes. What was the pub in Only Fools and Horses called? Er, I think that was more than "a few" things, sorry. ;) fabiform | talk 16:57, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

George Bush
Eh, what's with the drive-by on George W. Bush? Does this serve any purpose except to bash the man? It mentions the cost of security, Bush's alcoholism, and the claim that he left without paying (without any reference.) My inclination is to remove this, as I don't think it really adds anything to an understanding of "pubs in British culture." If anyone wants to save it, speak up, and do some balancing on it. Isomorphic 23:53, 1 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I coudn't agree with you more so I've NPOVed it.
 * Adrian Pingstone 07:28, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

When did pubs first arise in Britain?
When did it first become possible and customary in Britain to go to a public place specifically for drinking ale or beer by the glass for money? - Joe Spivack


 * I don't know for sure, but it definitely was a very long time ago. The Adam and Eve pub in Norwich dates back to 1100 and something. It's hard to be sure what the customs were back then, though maybe historians can tell us - though I suspect they didn't give beer away. Graham 23:27, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I've added some history. Mintguy (T)

Free House v Public House
British question really - what's the legal difference between a Free House and a Public Hosue? To me, on the ground, they seem the same and are both called "pubs", but surely there is a difference..

Anyone got the answer? David.


 * It's a very ambiguous term. You'd think a free house would be the opposite of a tied house, that is a pub which was owned by a brewery or distiller and favored their products. In practice a lot of nominally free houses are either owned by or have restrictive contracts with breweries and distillers.  You can walk into a pub with a "free house" sign outside and see clearly that you've been misled, because instead of the expected proliferation of products there is a noticeable uniformity about the decor and (more important) the drinks provided. I think the term may have had some legal significance at one time but that doesn't seem to apply. Still the term is used because it is thought to attract passing custom with the promise of a wider choice of drinks. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 22:13, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * A Free house is a public house they are not different entities. Formely there was a distinction between free house and a tied house, but as Tony has pointed out free house doesn't quite mean what it used to mean. In the old days when there were thousands of independent breweries in the UK, most pubs were either free houses or tied houses. The freehold of a tied house would be owned by a brewery, the pub would be leased out to a landlord who would run the pub pretty much as he desired except that he was tied to the brewery and had to sell beer supplied by that brewery. The landlord was a reseller for the brewery's beer. A free house would be a pub that wasn't owned by a brewery but by someone acting independently where the landlord was free to sell whatever beer he liked. In the 1960s and 1970s the brewery industry became consolidated and by the laste 1970s there were five or six breweries running 90% of the pubs in the country. The big breweries began to change the way they operated. Instead of having tied houses leased to a landlord they began to run many of the pubs directly, appointing managers who were paid a salary. In the late 1980s or thereabouts legislation was passed to stop the brewery domination. The breweries were forced to sell of thousands of pubs, many of these pubs were bought up by companies who went into the business of simply running pubs, J.D. Wetherspoons being a notable example. This business about consolidation and Eddie Taylor really should be in this article. 22:42, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the replies. I've always wondered why some pubs had "freehouse" writen on them. I try to go to pubs which are independant from the big chains and where they sell a good variety of beers. I'm glad that legislation came in the 1980s... can't imagine how it would be today if there was, say, only 2 huge chains of pubs! A toast to the British public house! :) David


 * Well the point is that the legislation didn't work as intended. The intent was to stop the domination of large breweries, and support independent small breweries and free houses, but the effect was that the retail chains bought up loads of the pubs and they now dominate the industry just as much as the large breweries. The market is now just as bad as it was when the large breweries were running these pubs. I do not got into Yate's Wine Lodge or Rat and Parrot or Slug and Lettuce, they are not real pubs and generally they do not sell good real ale. Jooler 10:31, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Public Houses I think came about after the wars which Britain was embroiled in during the 18th century as well as the Napoleonic wars. This was where widows were given licences to brew beer in their houses and use the front room of their house to sell the beer. This was authorised by act of Parliament in order to provide war widows with some kind of income.

Thus you had authorisation to brew beer and sell it in your house. You were thus making your house open to the public and in turn it was therefore a Public House! Interestingly this is where the term 'hole in the wall' comes from too as many initial Public Houses had a small hole knocked through in the wall in order to enable the widow to sell beer to customers in the front room without actually being in the front room.

Many original Public Houses may still have the original hole in the wall. The Rising Sun in High Wych near Harlow in Essex still has it's original hole.--Pudduh 13:10, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

notable pubs
The "Notable British pubs" section seems to be full of pubs with some quite doubtful claims of notability, this counting even several of those with their own articles. There seems to be no real guidelines for what's included. Some seem to be here just because they have a slightly interesting story connected with them (I think this can probably be said of most pubs, in general). Some have no claim to fame at all. The Royal Oak, Meavy, Devon should certianly be merged with Meavy, Devon, but there is no article on Meavy. Now anyone want to work on cleaning this up? I'm happy to help. Also, is the line about Shaun of the Dead relevant at all? I haven't seen the movie yet, but if a bunch of the characters hang out in a pub how is that anymore remarkable than just about any other British film? -R. fiend 18:39, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. The selection of notable pubs would have to be a consensus from reliable sources, not pubs entered individually due to some isolated (and dubious) claim - such as "highest pub in Yorkshire". I will do some research for a consensus on 10 of the most notable pubs. In the meantime I will trim the list to 10. SilkTork 23:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Understandable edit. But I think you have to keep the Olde Cheshire Cheese, even though it doesn't have a photo (yet). But, OTOH, only 10 items already means that London gets a bit unduly represented, it already has 3, and nothing from Soho is there even - or the Dove, Hammersmith (smallest bar in UK, Hemingway, Greene), or... Nor is there is anything from Scotland or Wales, which could cause ructions. The 10 rule will be hard to enforce in any case.


 * Basically, maybe there should be an article listing notable pubs that could go on indefinitely, with the single proviso that anyone adding a pub must specify some reason why it is notable or it will be deleted (the existing pub lists are just lists with no qualifiers). Then this article could simply link to that one. Tarquin Binary 23:55, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * TOLD YOU SO! As you can see by the latest edit (wasn't me) this rule will not hold. However, I believe I have a solution. I've set up Notable_British_public_houses, which is ordered by official region (in alphabetical order - us Londoners have to be careful or we get accused of metropolitanism). That can be pruned, but I do not see any natural limit on entries. It can be beautified with pix when the sections fill out, and the intro could discuss claims and counter-claims (for example, I know at least two other pubs that dispute the Prospect's claim to be the oldest Thames-side pub.)


 * Tell me what you think - if you reckon that works, all we have to do is remove the whole section here and put a note right at the top of the page for them as wants specifics. Tarquin Binary 16:07, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Further thoughts on this list. I've been trying to find a list of Listed Pubs, and it's hard to come by. Given how many old pubs are under threat, adding their listing grade could be worthwhile, but seemingly can only be found on a case-for-case basis. It's certainly worth noting Grade 1 status (if there are any that exalted) and Grade 2*. I'll likely soup up that page on the weekend and link it in if no objections. I'd like to make sure that there is at least one entry for each region, though I am not familiar with all British regions (mostly just London, SE, SW, NW, East Anglia), I'm sure I can find something for each though. Tarquin Binary 17:10, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, I did it now, section replaced linked to new page. At the very worst, it'll stop this page getting cluttered up with lots and lots of unremarkable locals. At best, it might even be useful. I haven't got anything on North England or Northeast England right now, but I'm sure something'll turn up. (What is the most easterly/westerly pub in the UK? You can get obsessed with these questions...) Tarquin Binary 00:14, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

The reference to Shaun of the dead in the Public House topic is sound. This is because (*SPOILER*) Shaun sees the Pub as holding every value he holds dear so when all hell breaks loose he disregards everything else to evacuate his freinds and family to his loacl pub. It is only when they get inside the pub that they realise just how futile a move it was. --Pudduh 15:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Guv
'GUV' or 'GUV'NOR' refers to boss. To my experience and knowledge, it is more likely that the barman would call a customer (or 'punter') Guv'nor, or Guv, since the customer is traditionally seen as the 'boss' of the publican. 81.77.158.140 17:32, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's regional and depends on your age too. I know plenty of older people in London who use it to mean the landlord. But since it varies, exactly as you say, I guess we should drop it. Tarquin Binary 17:05, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

...Australia?
Is there some other article discussing pubs in Australia or is this one missing some info? They're not just a British thing. pfctdayelise (translate?) 14:14, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Are there pubs in Oz? I thought there were just bars...

Pubs Well Worth A Visit?
Just noticed the Pubs well worth a visit section on this page seems to contain only three pubs, all in the Cotswolds. While I'm sure they are excellent pubs, this does seem very subjective. I think there used to be a heading 'Notable Pubs' before. I haven't removed this section as it doesn't seem like my place to pronounce on this, but is there any way of having a considered and reliable set of example pubs. (Declared interest, I run a free pub guide website. I'm happy to confidentially contribute an opinion, but because of my web site cannot formally endorse any one pub over another). Duncshine 15:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point, Duncshine. Actually, I get a distinct aroma of POV from that section! I reckon it should be dropped. Perhaps it should be replaced with a section "Notable pubs". There was once a section on notable pubs (see discussion earlier on this page), but it seems to have disappeared. From that discussion, it looks like one worry was that such a section would get bloated, with everyone and anyone adding their own local. Perhaps the a "Notable pubs" section could be limited to just ten or even five pubs, with a hidden note asking editors not to add any more unless it is agreed on the Talk page. --A bit iffy 16:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks Abitiffy. Yes, it is difficult to include anything approaching a recommendation here as one man's great pub is another woman's dive! Perhaps they could be chosen from the current pubs of the year awarded by, for example, CAMRA, The AA, The Good Pub Guide etc. I know they're also subjective, but perhaps that would rein in the enthusiasm of landlords and their locals! Duncshine 17:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The notable pubs stuff was moved to a separate page - Notable British public houses - by me because of these concerns. Unfortunately someone seems to have now dropped the link to the page into obscurity at the bottom of the page, I'll see if I can find a place to reinstate it further up. Personally, I cannot see any reason against adding any number of pubs to this page, as long as they have some claim to fame... Tarquin Binary 16:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Pub Names Section
Good morning all. Just reading this article, and I wonder whether the information under the Pub Names part of this page would be better in the actual Pub names article. Certainly the information about John Manners and the origins of Goat & Compasses would seem to belong there. Maybe it makes sense just to have very broad mention of pub names here, and link it to the Pub Names article. What do people think? Duncshine 09:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Irish pub (abroad) history
Now that Irish pubs, or vague simulacra thereof, are a fixture of nearly every city outside Ireland, I suggest we better research where this trend began. AFAIK, the first overseas "Irish pub" was in Germany in around 1971, but I'm having trouble backing this claim. The one in the Europa-Center in Berlin is pretty old, but I don't think it was the first. ProhibitOnions 14:54, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree and it should have an article of its own also.--Vintagekits 22:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

The Vault and the Lounge
This article talks about pubs being split (along class lines) into the Saloon and the Public bar. I've seen pubs with rooms labelled "Vault" and "Lounge" which seem to be split more along gender lines: the Vault being an all-male preserve and the Lounge being mixed, but I don't know if that's the whole story. Does anyone know more?

It certainly used to be the case in the uk that "Ladies" where expected to stay in the lounge bar as oposed to the public bar - I recall a pub in the north of the uk on the canal system that I  and a mixed group of freinds went in where the landladys was fairly insistent that we went into the lounge ratehr than the public bar this would be early 80's

Mjwalshe 13:39, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

'waitress' service
Waitress service or its non-sexist equivalent used to be the norm around Newcastle on Tyne - is this not still the case? Parts of Scotland (eg the pubs near Onich?) also use a mixture of bar and waiter service I think. Linuxlad 19:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

"Pop goes the Weasel"
The interpretation of this nursery rhyme is only incidental to the subject of this article, but I think is fanciful: "weasel" is local Cockney Rhyming Slang for "coat", quite apart from the obscure tailoring tool (which a drunk would be much less likely to pawn). In the absence of authority for either version, I suppose the improbable one should be omitted? Jezza 10:47, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Images
I would really like to see more images of the interior of pubs in this article. While the exterior shots do add a great deal to the article, it seems to me that the most defining aspects are inside. I'd shoot some myself, but I'm in the U.S., and as the article notes, they're not too prevalent here. The shots at Pub all appear to be exteriors or signs. &mdash;ptk⁂fgs 12:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Geographical scope
This is a geographically-confusing article. The introduction asserts that pubs are found in many English-speaking countries, yet much of the information in the article applies only to the UK. Moreover, while "pubs" are found in many countries, the term "public house", the actual title of this article, does not apply in Australia, for example. There needs to be more clarity from the start about the actual domain of reference of this article. mg e kelly 23:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Public House: more than a drinking establishment
This article seems to focus on one aspect of the Public House: drinking. In fact Public Houses were historically just that: Public houses. They were places were travelers spent the night - this usually included dinner (lunch), supper, a bed to sleep on (or a spot on the floor) and then breakfast. Public houses could be found everywhere (they were usually just private homes made "open to the public") and when you traveled, you traveled from public house to public house (by foot, horse or chaise). -- Stbalbach 17:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not exactly true. Public houses stem from three traditions. The inn, in which people stayed overnight, the tavern which was the equivalent of a modern coffeehouse or restaurant (i.e. where the well-todo people chilled out) and the alehouse which was purely for the purpose of selling beer and where you would have found the poor doing their best to blot out the realities of their miserable existence by getting themselves blotto. Most alehouses were just that, houses that produced and/or sold ale (usually made by the alewife) but they were not hotels or euivalent to them. Throw into that mix the arrival of gin-shop (and later gin palaces), add a bit of governemnt regulation and you end up with the pub. The point been that the vast majority of establishement have always been about drinking. The three traditions don't seem to be mentioned in the article. Jooler 02:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The Victoria Inn ( Pub )
Also know as ( Newvic ) in Richmond Road Brighton has some history, but nobody knows what it is do you or anyone who can help with providing history about it please. I no it dates back to the 18th century somewhere about's. And just recently in the last 6 years been refurbished. Does anyone one no a link to the history or can help please i would like to no more about it.. mail me to newvichist@ntlworld.com

kind regards

Jonniboi

Resources
These links were removed last year. I haven't checked through them, but it is possible they may provide good reference and resource material so I have transplanted them here. SilkTork 14:39, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

(removing list of random extlinks which haevn't been incorporated. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:02, 26 June 2009 (UTC))