Talk:Pub/Archive 2

Law changes
I think this should be updated to reflect the smoking ban now in operation in England and Wales, which does affect the traditional smoky environment of pubs, lol. --Beeurd 14:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 02:38, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Snug?
I miss an explanation what a snug (of a pub) is from this article. Maybe someone more competent than me could amend it, thanks. Maikel 21:10, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Juke box
Article states: "the highly contentious juke box or "muzak" has otherwise replaced the musical tradition of a piano and singing". It seems to me that highly contentious is very much a POV phrase for a common pub item that most people don't even think twice about. Any refs for juke boxes' contentiousness before I remove these words? --Lost tourist (Talk) 18:42, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Definite Article (Grammar)
Do pubs take the definite article by virtue of a grammar rule or just their names? If the former then perhaps it is noteworthy. "I am going to the pub" in British English may be used even when the listener is not familiar with the pub that the speaker is going to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Timtak (talk • contribs) 01:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Grammar. It's much the same as saying "I'm going to the post office", or "I'm going to the bathroom". Jooler (talk) 13:17, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Split
Country inn directs here. There should be a separate article for "country inn", which is a whole different animal. Hadrianheugh (talk) 22:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * See Country pub. If you think it's a suitable redirect make it so. Personally I think that article should be merged back in to this one. Jooler (talk) 13:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Well done, unreg editor 75.134.181.76 for entering all the sources
Terrific job digging out all the sources and entering them, well done 75.134.181.76! Dieter Simon (talk) 13:58, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Some pubs often bear the name of "hotel" (but at other times, they change their names?)
"Some" and "often" are sort of doubling up here to give the phrase the following meaning:

There are some pubs which usually have "hotel" in their name, but on some occasions do not.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I would suspect that the total number of pubs in the world which regularly alternate their names between something with "Hotel" and something without it is probably zero. 72.23.224.5 (talk) 02:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes I agree, so I have dropped the word 'often' from that sentence. -- Harry Wood (talk) 11:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Inappropriate tone?
We've got a   lable on there, but I can't actually see anything wrong with tone. At least not in the first few paragraphs. All seems fairly encyclopedic to me. -- Harry Wood (talk) 11:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Pretty sure that has to do with the "Irish Pubs" section (way at the bottom) which, with all due respect an' all, is way too long and mostly irrelevant. Ossicle (talk) 16:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Beer Houses
I am surprised that there seems to be no mention of Britain's historical Beer Houses, the third tier of Licencing introduced by the 1830 Beer Act. See Beer Houses. Is this an oversight? or was it decided to omit beer houses from the Public House entry? 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 16:49, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, here is your chance. Feel free to add a section on beer houses. You obviously know a lot about it and we would appreciate your contributions. Thanks Dieter Simon (talk) 23:01, 1 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh OK, stand by your beds, I will see what I can rustle up 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 23:07, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Origin
At the start of the article it claims that pub's originated in England, is there any actual proof to back this up? 86.10.97.187 (talk) 15:47, 29 June 2008 (UTC)Moustan
 * Not sure, do you mean Scotland, Wales or Ireland as opposed to England? Other countries would have their own words for what we call a pub. Dieter Simon (talk) 23:12, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Well yes, I am quite sure that the Romans and Ancient Greeks, even the Chinese, had public drinking and eating establishments thousands of years before the Celts and Anglic tribes crawled out of their caves and huts to start them, but this article is about establishments called "Public Houses" or "Pubs" and I doubt that the ancient races used those words. In fact it is quite likely that it was the Roman invasion that brought the concept to England in the first place, with them springing up all along the roman roads and near the marching forts. 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 10:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes - if you Google "origins of English pub" or similar you'll find a number of sources all essentially saying that it was the Roman occupation of Britain that brought about the first pubs - their roads facilitated longer journeys and hence the demand for pubs developed. Unfortunately I have yet to find a source that looks authoritative enough to be cited as a reference here. Barnabypage (talk) 11:26, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And of course, it depends what they were drinking in those establishments. Can we really talk about ale her, or was it wine which presumably the Romans knew more about than about ale, or are we indeed taking about mead? If it was the latter the Rigveda and some Proto-Indo-European sources refer to it. So it is all very relative. If it's ale you'd be going back to Celtic times most likely. Dieter Simon (talk) 22:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * All of that, ale, wine and mead, anything they could make or get their greedy hands on to sell for a few groats. The importation of amphorai of wines from the Mediterranian to Britain is well documented. Ale and mead would have been brewed locally. 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 01:01, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

So that leaves us indeed with the tabernaeas they would have been called, the first Roman establishments in Britain. Dieter Simon (talk) 22:02, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:FOOD Tagging
This article talk page was automatically added with WikiProject Food and drink banner as it falls under Category:Restaurants or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. You can find the related request for tagging here -- TinucherianBot (talk) 10:51, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Revamp
I'm undergoing a major revamp of all the pub articles. Any assistance is welcomed. It would be great to form a Pub Task Force to discuss best ways forward. If at any point I do an edit or merge that looks daft, please get in touch so we can talk about it and perhaps put it back the way it was. All input is very welcome!  SilkTork  *YES! 18:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

"Nowhere Inn Particular"
This was originally included under the "Name" section of article "Public house" because it no longer exists and is therefore part of our pub heritage. To remove this would be tantamount to vandalising this heritage. Dieter Simon (talk) 23:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Nice one! ;-)  SilkTork  *YES! 18:25, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, Silkforce, yes, but since there is a section referring to quaint pub names, it does make sense. Unless you are intent on removing the whole of the heritage sources of pub names, surely there must be article space for this. No, it does actually tie in with the text of pubs with "amusing" names - in this case that was and no longer is! We are always concerned with substantiating and sourcing facts in Wikipedia, sometimes more worriedly than need be, but in this case, where there is no longer any tangible proof of a pub existing with such names, a photograph is the only source. And what I said about pub heritage is still valid, and if this sounds quaint, a pub called "Nowhere Inn Particular" is indeed quaint, but exist it did.Dieter Simon (talk) 23:14, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've moved the image to the Pub names article where it seems to sit more comfortably. I also moved a chunk of text on pub names from here to the talkpage of that article as we had too much here for comfort.  SilkTork  *YES! 23:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Pub Task Force
Anyone interesting in working for a while on improving the pub articles? Sorting out the stubs. Organising the categories. Creating a Pub InfoBox. Drawing up some kind of notability guideline, and checking that pub articles are meeting the guidelines. Drawing up a Style guideline. Working on the editing of the main articles - Public house,List of public houses in the United Kingdom, Bar (establishment), etc. Considering how to integrate all the drinking establishments around the globe. Perhaps create a new parent article: Drinking establishment. I've started working on the pub articles, but I would really like to work with other people to bounce ideas and keep within consensus. Check in at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Beer, or respond here or drop a message on my talkpage. Cheers!  SilkTork  *YES! 18:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Merging
I am currently merging small articles I am finding which relate to this main article - such as lock-in, country pub, etc. That I am merging the material doesn't mean it should stay here - some material, like country pub, may be reduced to a single sentence in a more developed Types of pub section. Or it may be expanded enough to be sent back as a stand-alone article in summary style. This is a transition phase.  SilkTork  *YES! 14:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Country pub links
Not tested.  SilkTork  *YES! 14:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

*Pub Hub website - guide to 'lost' and country pubs *BBC Norfolk : Story of a Country Pub
 * The Guardian article on 'the perfect country pub'
 * Southern Life - the Country Pub
 * http://www.knowuk.co.uk/html/about_wpubs.html
 * http://www.northwilts.gov.uk/AccomGuide.nsf/Country+Pubs!OpenPage
 * http://www.fatbadgers.co.uk
 * www.geograph.co.uk : photos of some examples of country pubs

Tested. One OK resource.  SilkTork  *YES! 14:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Rename...or something
This article is almost entirely about British pubs, with virtually no reference to the history or current practice of pubs in other countries. Which is fine, but it should be renamed in that case to "British pub" or similar, along the lines of Australian pubs or public houses in Ireland. Either way, the scope of the article should be clarified, then a name chosen to match. Stevage 04:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a good point. However, I think the parent article is Drinking establishment, and from that we have the sub-pages of Public house, Bar, Tavern, Inn, etc, with some focus on the history and culture associated with those places. Public house is the British variation of a drinking establishment, so it would be appropriate for the focus to be on British pubs, with sub pages from here going to Australian pubs and public houses in Ireland, etc. But it's open for debate. And anyway, the structure I outlined needs attention to make it clearer than it is now.  SilkTork  *YES! 21:11, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I guess there are several different topics all included in the one article here, like the history of British alcohol laws, architecture of pubs etc. Details about gin houses vs beer houses are really too obscure for an article on "public houses", but would be welcome elsewhere. It's really hard to know what to include in a topic like "public house", when there are obviously big differences in culture, style etc across countries. Stevage 12:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The biggest issue is why it is at 'public house'. According to WP:UCN it should be at 'pub'. Is there any specific reason it is here? +Hexagon1 (t) 09:36, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would it be at PUB? That is only an abbreviation of its full proper name. Public House is absolutely correct in every possible way. The pub abbreviation should be on a redirect, as I believe it already is. There is no need to get sloppy here is there? 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 12:40, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Pub is by far the more common term. I was caught off guard when I stumbled here, I wasn't even aware 'pub' was short for anything. Maybe it's just Australia (though I assume Britain would be similar), but as far as I know 'pub' is much more widespread. WP:UCN is clear on what to do in these cases. +Hexagon1 (t) 08:31, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe there is a need for a separate sub sub article called "Pub (Australia)". It can be and is shortened to pub in Britain, but everybody is well aware that it is an abbreviation. If I was directing a stranger who asked for directions I would say "Turn left at the public house on the corner" and I suspect most Brits would be the same, except possibly some of the younger sloppy 'txtspk' generation. Pub currently redirects here, the correct name of a British establishment is Public House so my feeling is still that we have all the bases covered.... except possibly for the sub sub articles on Australian, Irish and American drinking holes if there are that many differences of note Strike that, they already exist, I have added links in the Pubs outside Britain paragraph. 21stCenturyGreenstuff (talk) 08:46, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * As I said, I cannot speak for Britons. But the current policy is common name, which is why we have Bill Clinton (but not William Clinton), East Timor (not Timor-Leste), United Kingdom (not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland). These are also a number of things called their 'layman' name as opposed to their technical/correct name. +Hexagon1 (t) 09:43, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

You certainly can't speak for the UK/Britain, saying the current policy is "pub". Where do think the word "pub" comes from? Public house, of course. The sheer fact that most people shorten it to "pub" is neither here nor there, officially even now  it is still "public house". There is no such thing as an official policy to call it "pub". If a court of law were to decide on an incident in a pub, they would pull you up short and make you call it a "public house". Dieter Simon (talk) 00:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * That is exactly what is completely irrelevant. Have you even read WP:UCN? In a nutshell, if there is a prevalent common name, we use that instead of any 'official' name. Contrary to what you seem to be claiming, there is no official policy dealing with pub nomenclature exclusively for the UK. +Hexagon1 (t) 22:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)