Talk:Race and crime

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Taihamagnolia.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Fahjah101.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 18 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Llee804.

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US bias
The article says "Today the issue of race and crime is especially salient (...) in some countries, crime rates vary significantly among racial groups." The problem is that most of the countries don't even make statistics based on racial groups. In most countries most statistics of this kind ,if exist, exist on ethnicity and not race. I would suggest renaming the article to Race and Ethnicity or entirely delete it. (as there is an article on Race and crime in the United States) — Preceding unsigned comment added by FonsScientiae (talk • contribs) 03:39, 15 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Given that 'racial groups' are by definition a social construct (how else do you arrive at 'a group'? I've never seen any scientific method proposed which would determine how they could be arrived at, though I've seen plenty of 'science' that supposedly proves the existence of whichever convenient cultural/economic categories are desired by the 'scientists'), it isn't surprising that it is written with regard to the dubious social constructs relating to a particular society. Then again, 'crime' is a social construct too... AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:59, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Course assignment, 2015
I will be working on this page and adding various information about crime rates amongst various racial groups. Nirooban10 (talk) 02:54, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

MAOA effects on Race and Crime vindicated
A new mainstream secondary source which you can see here vindicates the postulated connection between race and crime. The 2-repeat allele has effects independent of environment and disproportionately affects Black Americans, meaning that a connection between race and crime seems to have a strong genetic basis and intervention cannot affect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wajajad (talk • contribs) 22:01, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Course assignment, 2016
Hey, I am in a sociology class and I plan on adding some great ideas to this article. I noticed it was missing a lot of in depth information and wanted to bring some relevant topics to the article. Such as: Here are some references that will assist me in this article. Shortieex (talk) 03:30, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Stereotypes and how the media perceives people of color.
 * The issues that persist race and injustice which includes racial profiling, police brutality, and capital punishment.
 * The underlying problem with race based data.
 * The wrongful convictions of African American men.
 * Provide statistical data and pie charts on the percentages of minority incarceration.
 * The percentage of the wrongfully accused.
 * Pictures to display how people of color have been treated by the justice system.
 * Demographics of arrests made in the United States.
 * The disproportion of people of color in prison.

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Shortieex. Peer reviewers: Zmyer002, Mfils018, Ecook002.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:41, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Peer Review
Hello, You have chosen a very interesting and prevalent topic. Upon adding to this topic, you should take a look at the events that's happening in the world today. When comparing and contrasting the increase in crime make sure to include statistics what has changed that may have contributed to the increase in crime. Also, include statistics that show what race has the highest crime rates, incarceration; etc. Include a few examples of instances where someone was racially profiled and what affect does racial profiling have on crime. There is a plethora of information that you can include in your project. Good luck! Ecook002 (talk) 02:10, 19 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello, thank you for your input on my article's page. I definitely plan on adding statistics about crime increase and discussing the crime and incarceration rate. Your suggestions will be looked into fully. Thanks again! @Ecook002 Shortieex (talk) 21:35, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Request To Add Every Information About Race And Crime
All information about Race and Crime must be added into this article, not just from one. Please add the information about Caucasians, Hispanics, and Arabs. Articles must also include the public reaction such as reaction from the legal system, and national news headlines; and compare this with every nation. In Correct (talk) 13:12, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 6 September 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. There's not much support for the suggested move to Race and criminal justice after more than three weeks. Additionally, several people suggested merging with the article Race and crime in the United States, but others opposed this on solid grounds - specifically that it would create an WP:INUSA issue. Given that merges are outside the scope of requested move discussions, I find no consensus here to take that action either. Further discussion of merge and cleanup options can continue below.--Cúchullain t/ c 13:44, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

Race and crime → Race and criminal justice – This article is narrowly about racial disparity in the criminal justice system, not about general connections or alleged connections between race and crime. That's an article we don't have but desperately need, despite the controversiality of the topic. (That is, among the general public; as far as I can tell, the scientific consensus is that propensity toward crime is socio-economic, not genetic. A related "academic" topic is Biosocial criminology, and Statistical correlations of criminal behaviour also mentions the question in passing without any real detail, and that seems to be all we have.) The present article text is mostly about the US, but it's barely above stub level and the article's talk page already calls for widening the lens. However, whether there's police and judicial prejudice against minorities, and whether there's a connection between ethnicity (or other genetics) and criminality are completely unconnected topics, and neither of them are described by "Race and crime", which is fatally ambiguous. I'm not certain what the proper title for article is. I think that people from the sociology, criminology, etc., wikiprojects will have a good answer in mind, though. [Update: I inserted the first proposal, "Race and criminal justice", as a likely one.]  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  04:31, 6 September 2017 (UTC) Do agree that Race and criminal justice might work for this article (I've inserted it into the RM template), and thus a Race and criminal justice in the United States; that would address the actual topic of this article, while being of just-sufficient scope to permit a summary style link to an article on alleged connections between race and criminal propensity as a related but not the same topic. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  02:31, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Race and crime in the United States also exists and covers much of the same ground as this article (which is very U.S.-centric, but not entirely so), but also has a section dealing with theories of a causal relation between race and crime. The ideal solution here would be for this article to cover the same ground as that one (i.e. both questions of race as it relates to the criminal justice system and theories of a causal relation), but on a global scale. (I disagree, I think, that those two topics are "completely unconnected", and I don't have a problem with that article's treatment of them both in separate sections in the same article.) One solution would be to move this elsewhere (e.g. to Race and criminal justice) and hope that that broader article is created at this title. It might be better, however, to leave this article at its current title and hope that its inadequacy as regards its title spurs someone on to improve it. In short: I don't really know. – Arms &amp; Hearts (talk) 20:21, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Strongly disagree with the first part; these are not the same topic at all and should not be commingled, other than navigationally, i.e. by a WP:SUMMARYSTYLE pointer from one topic to an actual, in-depth article on the other. It's going to be editorially impossible to get the highly controversial (and vandal/PoV-pusher/troll-prone) science material correct and well-sourced, and kept current (it's a fast-moving topic) across an increasing number of articles like "Race and crime in [insert place here]", especially since the "Race and crime" label is itself misleading, US-centric, ambiguous, and an artificial conglomeration of independent topics.
 * Thank you for clarifying. I'm definitely sympathetic to your point of view on this; while I think it would be possible and probably desirable to treat the two issues in the same article in an encyclopaedia where WP:NPOV/WP:FRINGE were always perfectly met, this is not such an encyclopaedia and the considerations you outline strongly suggest that another approach is necessary. (Beyond that, I'm happy to accept your knowledge and experience of these articles and this field over my own as someone who just wandered over here from RfD.) I'll also note, just to complicate things further, that Race in the United States criminal justice system also exists, and Race and criminal justice in the United States should probably redirect there (or perhaps the latter would be a better title). I've also replied at my talk page. – Arms &amp; Hearts (talk) 12:27, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sounds like the two US-specific articles are a WP:CONTENTFORK that needs to merge.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  01:31, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Merge this into Race and crime in the United States. It's a clear WP:CONTENTFORK.  —  AjaxSmack  03:18, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Merge in what way? Let's not create an WP:INUSA problem; we're not the only ones who have problems with "race and crime". --BDD (talk) 18:25, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * "We" are the only ones with an article/material on the topic. Let the name of the article reflect that reality.  A real "race and crime" article can then be created that reflects a worldwide viewpoint. —  AjaxSmack  00:56, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Merge per AjaxSmack. I am sure that a similar problem exists elsewhere in the world, but in its current state this article is all about the U.S, save for one short paragraph that boils down to "this has been identified in Europe as well", and which could be gracefully merged into a short "In other countries" section in that article. Iff someone puts up their sleeves and globalizes this article, I would be willing to reconsider, but I don't foresee that happening soon. Scope and naming issues of the two related U.S. articles need to be addressed separately – not sure how at the moment. No such user (talk) 13:31, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
 * As the RM nom, I have no objection to this merge proposal, though some bits of this may belong at Race in the United States criminal justice system. Or perhaps that, too, should merge to Race and crime in the United States (see also above about a possible Race and criminal justice in the United States title). I don't much care either way.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  18:56, 23 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

"Despite being only 13 percent of the population" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Despite being only 13 percent of the population. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 00:59, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

What's going on with this article?
It seems, per the discussion above, that this really is about an existing page topic: Race and crime in the United States. Indeed, save for a single paragraph about Europe, everything in here is explicitly about the US (although not labeled as such). Furthermore, it cites some dicey sources, including Prison Legal News. While I don't see anything about PLN on the Sources Noticeboard, my guess is that's because it's so obviously not reliable—it includes masses of supposed "statistics" with zero citations, and is clearly a biased source. I think this article needs some attention—both in terms of its scope/function and it's NPOV/reliability/accuracy. Thanks! Elle Kpyros (talk) 19:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Propose redirect to Race and crime in the United States
Given the clear WP:NPOV issues expressed about this article, I am proposing that it be redirected to Race and crime in the United States. –– FormalDude  talk 11:04, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Discrimination, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Black Lives Matter, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sociology, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ethnic groups, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthropology. –– FormalDude Emojione 1F427.svg talk 11:12, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Law, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, Neutral point of view/Noticeboard. –– FormalDude Emojione 1F427.svg talk 04:59, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Survey

 * Support - I can't see any harm, someone can create an article with an international scope in the future. Doug Weller  talk 12:31, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure this is a good idea. NPOV problems alone are not a valid reason to remove an article if it is notable and otherwise justified. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 14:03, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support No reason to have two articles on the same topic, and the suggested redirect target is a better-crafted page. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support "Race" is not an absolute meaningful term (scientifically, it's baseless), but can only be understood in a local/national context. In many parts of the world, it is totally meaningless in its rigid classificatory sense. An article that combines a term with no well-defined meaning on a global scale with a rigid concept such as crime (societies may differ a lot about what is punishable by law, but all have the concept of "crime") is absolutely non-defining. An article Race and crime could only be upheld if racial categories objectively were a thing. But they aren't. –Austronesier (talk) 14:47, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. As Doug Weller points out, an article with international scope can easily be created in the future if sufficient reliable sources are provided. But as Austronesier has stated, this scenario is unlikely to occur because serious social scientists are unlikely to consider it a valid field of inquiry. Generalrelative (talk) 16:17, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. Austronesier's comments get to the core of the issue. Given the invalidity of 'race' as an objective classification, it simply isn't possible to construct a legitimately-sourced article on 'race and crime' in the abstract. Even with the best of intentions, the result (if it actually manages to cover issues beyond the United States in any detail, which this one singularly fails to do) can only ever be synthesis, cobbled together from sources discussing specific local contexts, and specific local constructs. Any 'global' article constructed around such sources can only ever decontextualise them, and give a misleading impression regarding what it is exactly that the sources are discussing. As Article titles notes, "Titles containing "and" are often red flags that the article has neutrality problems or is engaging in original research", and I'd have to suggest that is what is going on here, even if it isn't obvious, or even necessarily intentional. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:00, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. I agree that the article is too US-centric right now, but there is at least a paragraph on Europe and it could be expanded with other regions. It would be very strange if readers searching for "race and crime" to were sent to race and crime in the United States; falsely implying that racist policing or racist attitudes towards criminality in general do not exist outside the US. It would make more sense to trim the POV/US-centric sections of this article and leave it as a stub for expansion. If we can't do that, then deleting it and leaving it red is better than a misleading redirect. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 09:34, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Support. As a unified topic this is mostly confined to the US; there are smaller individual controversies in specific areas where specific ethnic minorities face prejudice, but they're better handled on individual articles. The one paragraph on Europe reads like mostly a mash-up of random studies without any real unifying theme or subject. Furthermore, many of the citations there do not mention or focus on race (they generally mention ethnic minorities or immigrants, which are not the same thing) - supporting the idea that focusing on "race" as a broad categorical lens through which to view crime is a largely US-centric phenomenon. --Aquillion (talk) 01:56, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Not everyone lives in the USA. See WP:GLOBAL. Canada, France, the UK, etc. all have similar race and crime–related controversies. I'm shocked something like this would be proposed. Dunutubble (talk) 21:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose The controversy surrounding race and crime exists outside the united states, we just need to find more sources discussing the topic outside the US. X-Editor (talk) 05:22, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose per WP:INUSA this would be an inappropriate redirect. If the notable concept of the intersection of race and crime exists only in the United States, the specific article should be at this title. If the notable concept exists elsewhere as well then this title should not lead to an article solely about the United States. Per X-Editor, Dunutubble and others above and content like at Stop and search make it clear that this concept is not restricted to the United States. Thryduulf (talk) 02:50, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This is not a US topic, it's just for now poorly written in a US-centric manner, and needs broadening. It would be fine to create a "Race and crime in the United States" article and move most of the content there leaving behind just a WP:SUMMARY, but this article already has non-US content in it, so it obviously can't just redirect to the "in the United States". Why is this discussion even still open?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Comment Obviously when two article substantially overlap, the solution is to merge them. But I wonder if we should not merge the articles the other way around. After all, the connection between race and crime is primarily a pursuit in the U.S. which may also be applied to other countries. Scientology for example was founded in the U.S., where most of its members live and the article is almost exclusively focused on the U.S. But we don't call it "Scientology in the U.S." and even if we had articles for specific countries, the main article would still primarily focus on the U.S. TFD (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment on 's statement in "Survey": the title Race and crime in the first place suggests that there is a connection between race and crime. For most readers, "race" refers to something related to physical appearance (whether you believe in the objective reality of races in a classificatory sense or not), while crime refers primarily to the transgression of law, and secondarily to its enforcement. So "Race and crime" is about the potential correlation of certain physical characteristics with the proneness to criminal behavior. OTOH, "racist policing or racist attitudes towards criminality" is about the correlation between the derived topics Racism and Law enforcement, and as such is better covered in articles about systemic racism rather than in an article that turns the assumed correlation between physical appearance and criminal behavior into a thing.
 * While only tangentially related to our discussion, I would also argue that e.g. in Europe racism is primarily xenophobic, thus not based in a belief in innate racial characteristics. E.g., in Germany, Polish immigrants "visually" pass as Germans, but will nevertheless face discrimination and prejudice once they are known to be Polish (e.g. by their accent). But beyond this, distinct physical appearance generally puts people at risk of being othered as "foreign" (this is what constantly happens e.g. to Afro-Germans, who are often subject to systemic racist policing), and then xenophobia and racism become the same thing. –Austronesier (talk) 11:12, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yup. 'Race and crime' as a title violates NPOV. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:59, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Above proposed moving it to race and criminal justice, which I would have supported. Or it could be race and policing or race and law enforcement. But that seems to have little to do with this discussion, or my comment? The proposed redirect target is race and crime in the United States, which uses the same phrase. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 15:36, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Qualified by "...in the United States". I read it as the cross-section of Race in the United States (a particular and still state-supported demographic usage of the term "race") and Crime in the United States. This is a topic that has been given ample SIGCOV in numerous reliable and less reliable US-based sources. –Austronesier (talk) 16:42, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay, then is the contention that it has not received significant coverage for other parts of the world? Because I don't think that's the case: this edited volume on "Race, Crime and Criminal Justice", for example, has chapters on Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Australia and New Zealand, Brazil, Canada, South Africa, and the US. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 19:29, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Then is the contention that it has not received significant coverage for other parts of the world? Yes. And it becomes even stronger after reading the abstracts of the individual chapters of the book. Editorial policy has streamlined the complex problems of each country under the header race. Not all contributors are happy with it. The chapter about Italy even starts with: As a necessary premise to this contribution, it should be borne in mind that debates around ‘race’, in Italy, would be deemed racist. I agree. Since we have a choice, I prefer not to follow the editorial decision of the editor of the Springer volume, Kalunta-Crumpton. –Austronesier (talk) 20:18, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * "debates around ‘race’, in Italy, would be deemed racist". Indeed. I suspect that the same could be said for much of Europe. There is clearly discussion of the intersection between racism, ethnicity, crime, and the often-self-evident failings of criminal justice systems in such contexts, but framing this all as about 'race and crime' does nothing but perpetuate the stereotypical discourse over the subject that the US has been blighted with for so long. The United States is not the centre of the universe, and accordingly Wikipedia is under no obligation to mirror its deficiencies in article titles. Or in articles purporting to present a broader perspective. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:37, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The intersection of race and criminal justice has received significant coverage world-wide. This article should have national sections in it, since different jurisdictions have different legal systems, but we need not have US-specific, etc., articles on this until the main article exceeds WP:LENGTH limits.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I start being repetitive, but what does "race" even mean worldwide? If it's about racist bias in criminal justice worldwide, we should spell it out as such. –Austronesier (talk) 23:24, 18 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Answer to the question posed here. Maybe the discussion is still open because a potential closer wonders why none of the opposers (except for one exception) has addressed the question of what "race" means in a global context. A US-based view on phenomena outside of the US is quite the opposite of what is intended by WP:GLOBAL and WP:INUSA. –Austronesier (talk) 19:20, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Genetics in the lead
To anyone it may concern, it may be of note that the editors of this page consistently delete information regarding some members of the scientific community, and intellectual community as a whole, proposing that genetics causes to this correlate may play a role, and at the same time keep equally if not more unsupported information posted, stifling any mention of controversy or disagreement within the body of people concerned over the topic. One editor himself, AndyTheGrump (who has apparently been editing the page for the last 10 years) who is involved in this, is also blatantly posting untrue information in the talk page, stating, as if this were a fact (which it is not) “given that ‘racial groups’ are by definition, a social construct”. While I could argue about the actual validity of the previous statement, as to how that is simply untrue by many accounts, and is as absurd as saying dog breeds are a social construct, what I would like to call attention to especially is those who work to erase and censor viewpoints held by many and supported by scientific evidence, while keeping their own side of the argument. 2600:6C5E:547F:B1D0:58BF:EE68:6838:44DE (talk) 12:12, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Random unsourced assertions from racist nonentities are not 'information'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:37, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * We can mention those voices from "the scientific community, and intellectual community as a whole" in Scientific racism, as another specicmen (with due weight, provided secondary reliable sources mention them as examples of scientific racism). But not here. –Austronesier (talk) 12:53, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
 * You can call it scientific racism, plain racism, whatever you like, but blatantly censoring information that is very obviously pertinent to the discussion (and that remains unresolved) is more testament to your own inability to stomach distasteful truths rather then actually dealing in truth and unbiased discourse. I realize this is a controversial subject, and like controversial subjects in science there are different view points within both the scientific community and the public at large. Perhaps you should consider multiple Nobel prize winners stating their “untrue, scientifically inaccurate and racist beliefs” ,as I’m sure you know better than they do. Jbole (talk) 03:24, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn’t cite the first few edits as the previous information was also without reference. Fixed it for you. Jbole (talk) 03:15, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The cited source was an unreliable working paper. Even if you do find a reliable source for this, just sticking it in the lead and calling the topic "controversial" is not the right approach. If you collect a few reliable sources and want to draft some language for the body of the article, feel free to propose it here. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:29, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Added another source as to solidify the fact that the role of genetics on the topic of race and crime is still pertinent to the discussion. Furthermore, both papers were published within the last 10 years, and should suffice. The article is on "Race and Crime" and therefore, evidence supporting each side should have a place within the article. When I have more time tomorrow I will add a more fleshed out section at the bottom. Jbole (talk) 04:06, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The source you added does not verify that there is controversy over the influence of genetics on the topic of race and crime. The working paper was "published" in the sense of "being put online" but was not peer-reviewed. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 04:26, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Readded claim with several sources to back up said claim. If you or anyone else deletes the line along with all the sources without provided a specific reason as to why each source was invalid, I will report said user for vandalism, as removing something because you don't like it is in bad faith and does not adhere to wikipedia's pledge of neutrality. If you find that some sources are invalid, I invite you to critique me as to why you believe that, while leaving the other sources untouched. Jbole (talk) 05:14, 31 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Can you remove the sources I tagged, or quote the material that supports the content? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 05:28, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Legal Research
— Assignment last updated by User78632 (talk) 15:33, 10 November 2023 (UTC)