Talk:Rorschach test/Archive 13

Note
Disclose of the text is discussed on a subpage. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:04, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
 * or even test disclosure
 * Where is the subpage (and what happened to my question)? Jackiespeel (talk) 16:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The subpage is here and this is were you question has been move: Talk:Rorschach_test/disclosure Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 16:19, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you think, at this late stage, discussion should move back to the talk page? The subpage may have outlived its usefulness. – xeno talk 18:27, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I do not know what having further discussion regarding images here will add. I think having this discussion on a subpage decreases the amount of discussion.  If ideas to improve the page occur it will be more obvious with how things are currently arranged. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:49, 29 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds good. – xeno talk 19:14, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Official Decision
Trying to get the attention of someone who'd know. Maybe they'd be more likely to see it here than on the subpage...

I assume there was some sort of official decision to keep the images and disclosed information on the Rorschach page. Can a link to the decision be made sticky somehow? Probably on this page and not the subpage? I'd like to see where it actually happened.

Once such information is posted, feel free to delete this text entirely instead of moving it to the subpage. Crcarlin (talk) 07:14, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * For the images, see the links I just added to the above box with the exclamation point icon. I don't know which archived discussion addressed the "common responses" info. --Cyber cobra (talk) 08:56, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * See also: Talk:Rorschach test/2009 consensus review. – xeno talk 18:33, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Rorschach spelling corrected
considering all of this controversy, how was it that this name was misspelled so many times? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rberlow (talk • contribs) 07:15, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a pop up book
I am very displeased to see hidden text in the article. I thought the issue had been put firmly to bed quite a while ago. Garycompugeek (talk) 02:09, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What hidden text are you referring to? --Cyber cobra (talk) 03:19, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * "This section requires expansion." Garycompugeek (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Er, the only "hidden text" I can find are some HTML comments suggesting how the sections might be improved; I can find no hidden article-text-proper. --Cyber cobra (talk) 16:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Lol, no, "This section requires expansion" means that the section ought to be made longer— It has nothing to do with hidden text. ☻☻☻Sithman VIII !!☻☻☻ 23:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Simple Syllogism
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think simple syllogism (If A and B, therefore C) is an accepted standard of logic for use in Wikipedia. According to WP:SYN
 * "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article.

Since the Canadians have displayed this logic in an published statement about the topic of this article. So I feel no remorse in applying the same logic here. As follows: If a) the Canadian, British, and American Psychological Association believe that disclosure of psychological test materials compromises that test's utility, and b) the Rorschach test is a psychological test,  therefore c) they believe that disclosure of the Rorschach test will compromise the test's utility.  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 01:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The Canadian statement says: “The CPA’s concern is not with the publication of the cards and responses to the Rorschach test per se, for which there is there is some controversy in the psychological literature and disagreement among experts, but with the larger issue of the publication and dissemination of psychological test content”. So simple logic says that some experts think some experts believe that disclosure of the Rorschach test is beneficial, and some think it is harmful. Roger (talk) 02:24, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Well no: simple logic says that some experts doubt that it is harmful. Simple logic would not find any experts finding it beneficial. But the simple logic is made moot by the larger point of what you quoted: the CPA has a problem with ALL publication of test content, including the Rorschach materials. The CPA statement is firm there. Crcarlin (talk) 00:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * No, the CPA does not say that. The article quotes the CPA statement accurately. Roger (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm referring specifically to your quote, which I will reproduce here to make certain we are on the same page: “The CPA’s concern is not with the publication of the cards and responses to the Rorschach test per se, for which there is there is some controversy in the psychological literature and disagreement among experts, but with the larger issue of the publication and dissemination of psychological test content.”


 * In other words, the CPA is concerned with the dissemination of psychological test content including but not limited to (that's what the "not per se, but" clause means) the Rorschach. The term "larger issue" only emphasizes that they are concerned with all testing material including the Rorschach. If they were not concerned with distribution of Rorschach materials they would have made the statement very differently. Crcarlin (talk) 05:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The article includes that quote from the CPA statement. I do not think that the reader needs you are me to interpret it. Roger (talk) 06:38, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Roger Schlafly on this. His version of the article accords with the text of the source used, and your "syllogism" does not - notwithstanding the fact that it's been in the article for a while. Moreover, since the source used is explicitly a response to the publication of the test cards in this article, its meaning is very plain. The CPA does seem to be reserving the right to object on other grounds, but that shouldn't be given priority over their plain statement as quoted above. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:59, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It appears to me that the CPA does not care about the Rorschach images one way or the other. It just doesn't want WP to publish all the other tests that the CPA does care about. For this article, it is better to just quote the CPA. I previously paraphrased it, and someone reverted it claiming that it was original research. It is not. I am just using what the CPA said. Roger (talk) 04:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It appears to me that the CPA does, indeed, care about the Rorschach images. The opening sentence of the statement says that our actions has "significant implications for the assessment of psychological problems and disorders."  It ends the statement saying that our actions at Wikipedia, -- "Making the questions and answers to psychological tests publicly available -- compromises psychologists’ abilities to assess the learning problem of a student, the memory problem of an older adult or the depression experienced by a teenager."  The statement implicates Wikipedia both by name and by action. Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 04:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It appears that you simply want to say "I didn't hear that" in response to any evidence against your beliefs. Nobody else is required to join you in this. Nor are we required to pretend that consensus doesn't exit simply because you disagree with the consensus. — Gavia immer (talk) 04:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You're guilty of the same, though. The entire message of the article is that these tests materials are not to be published, period, but you're not hearing that, instead pointing to a single sentence which simply refuses to single out publication of the Rorschach materials as a particular problem. You're picking a tree and ignoring the forest. Crcarlin (talk) 00:49, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The article quotes the CPA directly. What more could you want? Are you claiming that those quotes do not accurately reflect the CPA beliefs? The CPA statement is very carefully worded, and I can only assume that they meant what they said. Roger (talk) 05:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It is against Wikipedia policy to use their statement "in ways inconsistent with the intent of the source." (see WP:NOR)  The intent of the CPA statement is clear.  I know the temptation is great to try to extract what you want to hear out of a source, but this is against Wikipedia Policy.


 * You seem to be waiting for me to acknowledge the existence of "controversy in the psychological literature and disagreement among experts." I can do that.  I have done that.  I hope that allays your concern about my ability to read a source.  But what I can't do is extrapolate from this that some experts see a "benefit" to publishing the images, or to say that "It appears to me that the CPA does not care about the Rorschach images one way or the other." as you did.  That would be misrepresenting the source and its remarkably similar to a discussion you had with Ward back in 2 August 2009 concerning the statement made by the American Psychological Association on the disclosure of test data.    You have a funny way of turning an argument around and standing it on its head.  Very amusing.  Thank you.  However, the CPA has earned their right to express their concerns.  It's best we get out of the way and let them have their say, in accordance with Wikipedia policy.  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The article does let the CPA have its say. It quotes the CPA. Your complaint is about my comments on this Talk page, and not about the article. I agree that the intent of the CPA statement is clear. Roger (talk) 13:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

As the interpretations of the test will change over time to incorporate changing socio-cultural-other factors, 'images on Wikipedia' will be another such component that will affect interepretations. More arguments than 'psychoanalysts good, keeping images non-visible, WP bad for having them (when elsewhere available) are required: otherwise casual passers-by will lean towards this argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 (talk) 14:55, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion regarding Ink Blots
We have created a special subpage to deal with the above conversations. Would someone be so kind as to move it back there? Yes a group of professionally strongly believe info regarding psychological test should be removed from Wikipedia. We all hear you yet most of us disagree. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 14:53, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Careful--there are two additional things going on here. The RfC probably deserves to be on the talk frontpage, and my question of what to do about the non-free content and formatting is not simply about removing for the sake of removing. Crcarlin (talk) 20:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Protection of test items
I think our readers will want to know the reason why some people wish the test items to be protected, and I couldn't find where we did that. Here's an edit I propose for the section entitle Protection of Test Items. It also relocates discussion about copyright and public domain, putting it here where it belongs. Thus putting both arguments side by side. I welcome comments. Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 01:37, 3 July 2010 (UTC)


 * We already have a section covering the issue: Rorschach_test --Cyber cobra (talk) 05:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, we do have the beginnings of such a section. However, the section doesn't say the basic things that I propose.  It doesn't answer the question, "Why would anyone want to protect the images?"  Neither does it explain the fact that the images are in the public domain.   These are the two sides of the conflict, stated in a neutral voice.  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 08:18, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree that reasons should be spelled out, although much of what you propose is already provided in the existing section, albeit in a different order. You have some useful references and I agree that that The Canadian Psychological Association and quote should be included. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like a useful addition. – xeno talk 20:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I would make it the real-world implications much more clear, showing that this isn't just an ideological fight or a theoretical disagreement. The Canadian statement is great from a principle point of view, but besides words of the official policy, potential influencing of examinees casts doubt on results, making the test less useful to patients seeking psychological help and to other cases where the mental stability of a person needs to be proven.


 * Copyright issues are all well and good, but it seems like the real effects on real people deserve more coverage than legal quibbling.Crcarlin (talk) 12:31, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You will have to document those real effects on real people, because not even the Canadians say that there are any harmful effects to publishing the inkblots. Roger (talk) 04:15, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * But the Canadians do say that publishing psychological tests compromises patient care. And they said so in a document responding specifically to our article.  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 01:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you please provide us quotes and links to these documents? We are also up here in the north not one group with a single opinion :-)  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 17:28, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * – xeno talk 17:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Requests for comment/Rorschach Test (2010)
Pursuant to the issues raised on the Talk:Rorschach_test/disclosure page, I am opening a wp:requests for comment and created a page at Requests for comment/Rorschach Test (2010) Before our fellow Wikipedians begin commenting, I wanted to be sure that I've gleaned as much as possible from this talk page. I want everyone's perspective. Does anyone have anything they want to add? Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * One thing I'd add is the question of fair use standards. Wikipedia's stated policy is that not everything that's in public domain is sufficiently "free" for publication here: WP says that its bar for publication is higher than simply being legally publishable.


 * I saw a few occasions during previous discussion about the Rorschach where people have pointed out that psychological associations maintain ethical standards strictly against open publication of materials, and this might count as sufficient restriction to keep the material off of Wikipedia. I never saw the point hashed out, though. Crcarlin (talk) 00:43, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I've seen it hashed out. The result was not favorable to the position you're advocating.  See the last paragraph of WP:NOTCENSORED.  According to the last RfC, you're free to argue for some kind of restriction based on consensus of personal ethics.  However, WP:NOTCENSORED says you cannot "compel" such a restriction.  I've watched others try with poor results.  I tried, too.  We all provoked a knee-jerk revulsion from the free culture movement and Libre knowledge enthusiasts among us. I tried to get them, (mainly Chillum) to admit that his ethics were was also in line with this.  (Who isn't concerned for the welfare of a depressed teenager or a schizophrenic adult?)  However, he and others refused to engage in that way.  They refused to admit their personal ethics into the discussion, and they did so with some pride.  These automatons leave their ethics "at the door" so to speak, because they think the mission of Wikipedia is to simply speak truth, the full truth, in a pluralistic world.  I understand this.  Most of the time, they are correct to do so.  However, these automatons take this agenda too far, applying their motes operandi even to this situation, where the ethics are so universally appealing.  Good luck in trying to convince them of that, though.  While I agree with you that that approach can and should be a factor in influencing our decision, there will be others who will react negatively to this, as a matter of habit.  Thankfully, it's not a matter of policy, though.  So feel free to try.  You do that while I advocate for "the mission of Wikipedia."   Perhaps both approaches can be factors influencing people to do the right thing.  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 02:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The argument actually seems pretty strong to me. WP says that free content is defined here. That definition includes the availability of source material (Rorschach's data which created the cards is pretty inaccessible and the data behind the common responses absolutely is) and lack of restrictions on distribution (various psychological societies and companies providing material restrict distribution to qualified individuals). Thus, I'd say the images and responses are not free as per Wikipedia's definitions. It would take a real argument to show otherwise. Crcarlin (talk) 05:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No, more of a trivial argument really. Said restrictions don't apply to the public domain (or for that matter, anyone not a member of a psychologist society), and the cards are readily accessible in publicly available books (e.g. Big Secrets). The source material for the cards is irrelevant, only the cards themselves. And the responses are cited to publicly-available books. --Cyber cobra (talk) 05:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The definition of free content adopted by Wikipedia (linked above) explicitly says that source data should be available for scientific results IN ADDITION to an unencumbered legal status. Mere availability of scientific results is not sufficient, as per Wikipedia policy. Both the cards themselves and the list of frequent responses are derived from research whose source data is not readily available (at least that I can find--psychologists aren't always super willing to post their datasets publicly).
 * Wikipedia and the freedomdefined guys are taking a philosophical position that public domain is not good enough for work to be considered truly free, so things like the non-free source data and the non-free attitude of the professional associations come into play.Crcarlin (talk) 06:10, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see any claim being made that the cited portions are free. We cite copyrighted material throughout the encyclopedia. If your novel interpretation was adopted, then much of the Wikipedia would need to be deleted. – xeno talk  17:35, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The question of the images has been discussed thoroughly in the past here and via e-mail. See, for some examples, this, this, this and especially this and this.


 * In terms of the handling of text, text is indeed handled differently than other non-free content, I say this with some sense of the history of consensus here as material on text was added to that policy and guideline on my instigation to begin with. :) We absolutely rely on non-free content to verify material. Extensive quotations are forbidden in order to keep the use of individual works de minimis and to avoid rising to the level of substantial similarity. That said, if there are extensive quotations or unusably close paraphrases, these should be rewritten. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

In popular culture
Surely there ought to be a section on the Rorschach test in popular culture that mentions Rorschach (comics). --134.193.112.62 (talk) 22:20, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no need for a trivia section... just add a link under See also. Resolute 22:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Is there any particular problem with a popular culture section? This certainly would not necessarily be a trivia section. The "use" of the inkbot images in popular culture is at the heart of the debate over whether or not they should be shown at all in this article. But I'd disagree with it in "See also" - does the character in the comic with a mask like an inkblot really have much to do with this test? I seem to recall that the comic used to be included as a redirect at the top of this article page, where Rorschach Test (band) now is. Not sure why it removed from there. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:40, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The Rorschach test is derived from a parlor game thus mentions of its significance in history and popular culture is not trivial. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 01:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Un, which parlor game was that exactly? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently something called "Blotto or Klecksographie" (see also ). – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk  18:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, thanks. The ref in the article is to page 408 of Groth-Marnat (2003). I think this might deseve a little expansion in that para. Strictly speaking, I suppose, it was "popular culture preceding the invention of the test"? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Comparison to Snellen chart
This statement is both original research (see WP:NOR) and synthesis (see WP:SYN. I'm flagging it as an unsourced reference.  The statement is supported (referenced) by the New York Times.  However, this is a "circular reference" because the New York Times is simply quoting Dr. Heilman, a Wikipedia editor active in this talk page.  We have rules about how statements should migrate from the talk page to the article.  Getting quoted by a journalist doesn't seem to be one of them.  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 04:54, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Not exactly original research as it is referenced to the NYTs and attributed to a physician. It is thus obviously this physicians opinion.  But of course I have a COI so will leave this to others to decide. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 06:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Not to mention: seriously? That people might memorize the chart doesn't harm its use as a diagnostic? At all? Crcarlin (talk) 09:53, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The chart is freely available on Wikipedia for people to memorize. Yet almost no one can be bothered. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 20:37, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Right, so the key is whether or not people can be bothered, not whether or not it's available. And there's the big breakdown in the comparison between the two: failing an eye exam won't get you declared insane (forgive the slight hyperbole). Crcarlin (talk) 00:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * ...though passing it after studying it might let you drive a vehicle while legally blind. – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 17:31, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This seems to be an entirely specious argument. The quoted passage is a fair summary of a published reliable source. For Wikipedia users involved in editing this page to decide to overrule a reliable source because they disagree with its content is a big red flag for original research. The OR tag needs to go, or we need a serious citation of Wikipedia policy that rules out using this piece of sourced information. MartinPoulter (talk) 17:12, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:CIRCULAR Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 19:49, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONSENSE. If we agreed with your intepretation of that policy-section, then it would be impossible to write about events that occurred on Wikipedia. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:22, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The NYT article also states: ".. James Heilman, an emergency-room doctor from Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, posted images of all 10 plates to the bottom of the article about the test, along with what research had found to be the most popular responses for each." Is this factually correct? I'm not sure that Doc James would claim the credit for all that exactly. In fact, I think he may have made a comment about that at the time. Doc? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:25, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, I attempted to correct the NYTs but by that point the most common responses had already been attributed to me. I did link the ten plates from Wikimedia Common however did not ever upload them to the internet.  The stuff in the above box however is true.  I have compared this issue to the eye chart. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 15:08, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I couldn't help noticing that we have placed your words immediately following a quote from a psychological publishing company saying it's "unbelievably reckless and even cynical of Wikipedia" to have published the images. It's the context that I'm worried about.  We seem to be raising you up to a position as an expert on the harm resulting from our actions.  Are we right to do so?  Are you an expert in this matter?  Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 01:51, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It is still not original research as it is published in the NYTs. Please stop being disruptive. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, yes, the d-word. D for debate? I tend to agree with DanglingDiagnosis about the context for that paragraph. But do you still think, Doc, that it's a question of "memorizing" something that's the non-problem here? If you changed your mind would we have to wait for your NYT follow-up interview before we could remove this? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:44, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes debate is always good. This page has certainly seen alot.  @ Martin I do not completely understand the question you are asking.  Could you clarify. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 20:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * (1) ".. people are likewise free to memorize the eye chart .." - is this (still) how you see the problem of Rorschach pre-exposure? (2) your opinion regarding pre-exposure has now been very publicly aired by NYT. So public that it found its way back to here, which some editors see as a kind of circularity. But if, in the future, you changed your opinion, presumably Wikipedia would have to rely solely on your personal contribution to show this, i.e. NYT might not be as interested in your opinion next time around? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:35, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not add the line about my opinion. It was my opinion at that point in time and was notable thus ended up in the NYTs.  If my opinion was to change yes it is likely if would be none notable until of course my book comes out on this topic :-) at which point it may be notable again.  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 22:40, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * So there are at least two of us who are concerned about publishing your opinion on our article page. I think this is a valid debate, which was my intent in flagging it. I think tour opinion was notable to the NY Times because it motivated you to post the images on Wikipedia.  It was your actions that made your opinion notable to the NYT.  Your opinion, by itself, was not noteworthy.  Now, should your opinion ever be published in a publication subject to editorial review, that would be noteworthy.  Until such time, I consider it original research. Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 22:22, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * As long as people here are complaining about the inkblots, it seems appropriate to include in the article a reason for including them. The James quote helps explain it. Roger (talk) 00:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, it may help to explain what Doc thinks about the images, but it doesn't really explain why they should be here. The argument that "the Rorschach inkblots are like the Snellen Chart" is not a very convincing one. And where is any counter-balancing argument? Or was Doc simply using the eye chart as an analogy? I asked Doc above to explain his position further, but he has yet to do so. Until he explains his argument more fully, and before a counter-argument is added, the main reason why Doc appears in the article at all appears to be that he was reported (actually mis-reported?) by NYT. AND the context in the article suggests that he's an expert on this subject, which he agrees he's not. Doesn't seem wholly satisfactory. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The article has 7 paragraphs giving the views of various authorities who are on the side that disagrees with Doc James. Their opinions seem to be overrepresented already. If they wanted to address the Snellen Chart analogy, then we could consider posting their argument. But the article already describes their arguments as they chose to make them. Roger (talk) 16:52, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Where is any counter-argument to a comparison with the Snellen Chart? Those other editors made their arguments before the addition of Doc and his quote? Those other editors didn't get reported by the NYT? Does reporting by NYT make an argument more noteworthy, or more important? Maybe the argument should be fully examined here on this talk page before it gets added, as you seem to suggest? But still awaiting Doc's response ... Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:19, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I am involved with the Rorschach Ink block controversy and thus an expert on this subject matter. The comparison to the eye chart is excellent IMO as just as much or more harm could come from us having it here on Wikipedia yet no one argues vehemently for its removal.  If as was mentioned people were to memorize the eye chart and get driving licenses harm could come of it.  I still do not support its removal or creating a fake one for Wikipedia.  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 17:16, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I am not an expert on the Rorschach Test and have never claimed to be. And I would politely suggest that you Doc, even though you are a medical practitioner, are not either. Even being reported and quoted by the NYT cannot make one an expert. That aside, however, let's see if I understand you correctly. For the Snellen chart you think there is a danger (even for your Dad?) but the practitioners say there is no danger and you listen to their advice. But for the Rorschach, you think there is no danger, even though the practitioners say there is, and you refuse to listen, because you know better. Is that right? Also, which test do you think it might be easier to fake or which easier to be contaminated by pre-exposure - the Snellen, where there are many variants of test materals. or the Rorschach where there is only one set of blots? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally I think the comparison with Snellen charts (there is more than one) and the arguments it has sparked show the comparison is a fair one. There is no one Snellen chart to study--the familiar E F P one is just the most common one and only one of the many tools a doctor can use.  The same is true of the Rorschach Ink "test"; sure the picture have been out there for over 30 freaking years but how the interpretations are read is largely unknown.--BruceGrubb (talk) 09:32, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * It would seem that, unlike the Rorschach inkblots, Snellen charts can be constructed and employed very easily and quickly. The main requirement would seem to be knowledge of the Sloan letters. Other non-standard charts might even be possible, taking account of the subject’s native language alphabet. But they are not culture free - don’t forget, for example, that the letters J, K, Q, V, X and Z do not appear in the Welsh alphabet, But the Snellen chart is not a test of personality – the responses do not need to be validated against any given subject population, For these reasons I don’t see why any “novel Snellen chart” (if this is possible) could not be used in the wikipedia article. (If here is some risk of danger attached, as Doc James argues, then that is what should be done – as a sensible precautionary measure.) Furthermore, however, no “interpretation” of responses is required, but simply counting up correct and incorrect answers and calculating the ratio. There is no argument over which responses are correct and which incorrect.


 * The most fundamental difference is with the issue of pre-exposure – the professionals who use the Snellen charts do not argue that there is any problem with pre-exposure. The professionals who use the Rorschach inkblots tell us that there is. We are not experts on either of these tests simply because we argue about them here. Yes, the Snellen charts are sort of similar to the Rorschach inkblots. The Snellen charts might even be useful in an analogy. But when it comes to arguments over the actual use of these tests, didn’t we really ought to listen to the real experts? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:03, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The subject matter I am saying I know well is "the Rorschach Ink blot controversy" I have not claimed to be an expert regarding the "Rorschach Ink blot". Second I NEVER said that harm COULD not result from the Snellen chart or from these Ink blots.  Harm COULD result from Wikipedia hosting either one however we do not have evidence that harm results. Harm could potentially result from any of the content that we host.  But we are an encyclopedia and if we were to assume harm in the absence of evidence or even credible argument Wikipedia would not exist.  I have requested that "evidence be provided" many times in the past to substantiate claims of harm made by others and am still waiting for this evidence.  I have searched the literature myself and have been unable to find it.


 * We do not listen blindly to "experts" anymore. Evidence based medicine follows the adage "Show me the evidence".  I will repeat "Show me the evidence".  Otherwise please archive this discussion as something we have discussed dozens of times before. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 14:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * And I have argued many times in the past that it is impossible to collect this evidence. All we have to go on is professional advice. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:36, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe a better analogy would be to voodoo dolls, astrological charts, homeopathic pills, hypnotic trance procedures, and lie detectors. The self-appointed experts who practice these things do not like their secrets being revealed on WP, because their alleged effectiveness depends on keeping the subject in the dark about how bogus the practice is. Snellen charts have some objective validity, and that makes them a lot different from these inkblots. Roger (talk) 17:18, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I see. So are voodoo dolls, astrological charts, homeopathic pills and hypnotic trance procedures taken as seriously as the Rorschach by the American legal system? Not sure they are in the UK. I think the "jury is still out" on the polygraph (unless maybe the jury's been permanently retired)? But at least we seem to agree that the Snellen Charts and the inkblots are very different types of test. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:34, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes and we do have a research psychologist from Texas who said the Rorschach was only one step removed "from crystal balls and tea leaves" Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 17:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you'd easily be able to find quite a few "research psychologists from Texas" who are fully prepared to rubbish psychometrics of all kinds, including the mainstream objective personality measures. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:39, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Not ones backed up by statements in Psychology: a student's handbook (2000) by Bysenck, Michael W. Routledge pg 746, various court cases (Jones v Apfel (1997) US v Battle (2001)), The criminal mind: a writer's guide to forensic psychology (2002) by Katherine M. Ramsland pg 96, Psychological Science in the Courtroom: Consensus and Controversy by Jennifer L. Skeem, Kevin S. Douglas, Scott O. Lilienfeld (2009) Guilford Press Page 211, Clinical research in mental health: a practical guide by Gordon J. G. Asmundson, G. Ron Norton, Murray B. Stein SAGE pg, and many other sources. The fact is there are countless sources that the Rorschach test is totally useless for some of the things it is used to study or test for.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:03, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Bruce, those seem to be perfectly reliable sources and so could be added to the article as appropriate (but however many others there are, surely they could be counted?). Your statement suggests that there are still some things that the Rorschach can properly measure. But what this has to do with the Snellen charts - unless you are simply saying “the eye chart is reliable but the Rorschach is not”? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:05, 15 September 2010 (UTC).
 * Well in one sense that is the difference. Anyone who looks at any of the Snellen charts (even the one used for illiterates) can agree on what the chart says--the same is not true of the Rorschach "test".  A Star trek fan like my self might say Klingon battleship for card VI for example; now just how do you score that?!?  Furthermore as Robert F. Joseph M. Masling's (2005) Scoring the Rorschach: Seven Validated Systems shows there is more than one way the Rorschach cards are used including methods dating back to the 1950's despite Lee Cronbach stating in 1959 "The test has repeatedly failed as a prediction of practical criteria. There is nothing in the literature to encourage reliance on Rorschach interpretations."  Ie some Rorschach systems still used in 2005 are invalid per standards given 50 years ago!--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:46, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Cronbach is certainly seen as a major figure in psychometrics. And I'm not sure he'd change his opinion if he spoke today. But his stance was very firmly entrenched in the quantitative/ statistical camp. I think it's a misguided to compare an objective test of visual acuity like the Snellen chart with a projective measure of personality like the Rorschach. People don't agree on what the inkblots show - that's the reason it was invented! Rather I think the acid test is whether or not the psychologists using the Rorschach can agree on what the variety of responses mean in relation to population norms of personality traits. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:10, 18 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The American legal system is based on open disclosure of evidence. The more seriously this stuff is taken by the American legal system, the more reason there is to publish the details on WP. Roger (talk) 18:31, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * One would certainly expect open disclosure, especially when evidence may not be reliable because of contamination by external sources. Or are you saying that juries all need to brush up on their Rorschach knowledge by reading Wikipedia articles? Maybe they need to know the top ten responses in order to decide if the psychologist has interpreted his client's answers correctly? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The public domain info should be available to juries, as well as to the parties in the cases, the judges, the lawyers, and the interested public. Is it not for me to try to censor info that exposes the nature of this dubious evidence. Roger (talk) 19:51, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with you, Roger. But the question is this: because those who use the Snellen charts have not complained that there is any danger in showing an image of one chart, does this mean that those who use the Rorschach inkblots, who say that there may be a danger in showing images of all ten inkblots, are wrong? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The only danger is to their income streams if the public learns what lousy tests these are. Roger (talk) 00:20, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * That sounds almost vindictive towards a certain group of people. Harmful even. But why not just answer the question? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:21, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * As I pointed out with Robert F. Joseph M. Masling's (2005) Scoring the Rorschach: Seven Validated Systems as a reference there is no one Rorschach test but rather a series of systems that use the Rorschach cards and form what I read in that book they are not comparative to each other. In other words you can NOT compare the results of someone that uses the Pripro scoring system to a specialist that uses the more commonly used Exner Scoring System and this book give seven alternatives to the Exner Scoring System that were still used at that time.  The inherent problem with this should be obvious and has been seen by others:


 * "Nobody agrees how to score Rorschach responses objectively. There is nothing to show what any particular response means to the person who gives it. And, there is nothing to show what it means if a number of people give the same response. The ink blots are scientifically useless." (Bartol, 1983).


 * "The only thing the inkblots do reveal is the secret world of the examiner who interprets them. These doctors are probably saying more about themselves than about the subjects." (Anastasi, 1982).


 * (Mclver II, William (1997) "Behind the Prison Walls" IPT Journal 9 (1/2)) gives the full references to these:


 * Anastasi, A. (1982). Psychological Testing (Out of Print)(Paperback - 1989 Edition). New York: McMillen and Co., p. 582.


 * Bartol, C. R. (1983). Psychology and American Law (Hardcover). Belmont, CA: Wadsworth Publishing Co.


 * "Pseudo-scientific diagnosis makes use of diagnostic instruments or methods that suffer from principal defects or shortcomings, that are based on unscientific, erroneous or sometimes even preposterous presumptions. Some of them were once popular, but are not taken seriously any longer. Examples are the Szonditest, Koch’s Baumtest, the Pfister colour pyramid test, Lüsher’s Colour test, frenology. Others are incidental trials, one-day flies, or eccentric beliefs outside the mainstream (e.g. Penn colour system, naildiagnostics or the Figure Preference Test). Again others, just as ludicrous as the tests listed above, are still used widely. Examples are the Rorschach Inkblot test, Draw a Person (DAP) and other expression techniques, among which in particular graphology, still popular among others in Germany, Israel, France, Switzerland, and parts of the USA.
 * Time will not permit me to demonstrate the unscientific basis of these tests and projective techniques, and the reader has to be referred to the critical literature on these instruments (Jackson & Messick, 1967; Drenth & Sijtsma, 1990). But I may bring to the fore graphology as a prototype of the pseudo-scientific diagnostic methodology." (Drenth, Pieter J.D. (2003) in the "Growing Anti-intellectualism in Europe: A Menace to Science" part of the ALLEA (All European Academies) Annual Report 2003)--BruceGrubb (talk) 13:50, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, after his rant, Drenth himself advises us to stick to Jackson and Messick (1967) and Drenth and Sijtsma (1990). But do the different systems still agree amongst themselves as to which are the most common responses? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:51, 19 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Psychological experts in divorce actions (2005) by Marc J. Ackerman, Andrew W. Kane Aspen Publishers - Page 487 also lam blasts the common misuses of Rorschach
 * "However, positive validity findings for the Rorschach, TAT, and human figure drawings have rarely been independently replicated (Lilienfeld et al., 2000)." Maddux, James E.; Barbara A. Winstead (2007) Psychopathology: foundations for a contemporary understanding Routledge - Page 112)
 * "the Rorschach, TAT and human figure drawings are useful only in very limited circumstances." (Griggs, Richard A. (2007) Scientific American Reader for Psychology: A Concise Introduction Worth Publishers Page 56)
 * The problem is not so much the Rorschach itself but the uses it is put to--uses unsupported by any scientific studies.--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:53, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That's a very important point. I guess some people might even use it as if it were some kind of objective Snellen Chart. (Divorce actions. Really?) Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:58, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

God, he [Heilman] is soooo right!! I mean there would be only a very few really crazy people would do such a thing!!! Who would want to test them anyway!!!

Maybe I should write a Wikipedia article on the failures of the Wikipedia community. Amid a huge success in so many fields, It is clear to me that in controversial issues that require building consensus. It is easy for naysayers to create enough disruption to make such consensus creation impossible. This issue being so close past the fringe, requires a bit of thought. Unlike the more obvious cases of clear vandalism, for which wikipedia authorities are effective. This is just past them, too risky.

This article is not important enough for a single person to put themselves through the necessary hardship to have a logical decision come from a Wikipedia authority. Authorities that are made from volunteers. So in effect there is this alternate reality created by a few disruptive people, compared to the world outside of Wikipedia editors, were this "consensus" is the best that can be had. I would encourage anyone who would like to bring some measure of reality and reason, to gather enough people (maybe a 100) so they can come in here at one time. Otherwise do not engage them at all, this free text discussion format simply does not work in this case. There are circular discussions here to no end. The archive did not get that big for nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.157.156 (talk) 04:59, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * While I look forward to your article on "the failures of the Wikipedia community", do you have anything to say about the comparison of the Rorschach test to the Snellen chart? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:14, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I said it right, just a crazy person would memorize the Snellen chart. So its OK?!! Isn't it? Snellen is not meant for such crazy people. And crazy people don't matter, just look at the accuracy of the Snellen chart.
 * Clearly the disruptive people who decided to make this a personal issue, just added a section to discuss an issue they already won. Maybe it is some kind of response to the top of the page that explains how the Rorschach is actually used. I love to assume good faith. Only that these disruptive people will not play by the rules. They are just enough of them to pretend they do, and subvert them as it may apply to the case. They know how to game the wikipedia, and they may even not be aware of what they are doing. Sure many uninformed may agree. But look at the jaywalking segment at jay leno, and that should give pause. While the fact that they are successful in wikipedia may give them comfort. Their comfort is just as artificial as this reality they they made for themselves. Maybe this is just a video game for them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.157.156 (talk) 17:19, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, one might try to memorise a Snellen Chart to help one keep a driving licence. I'm not sure that makes one "crazy." But there isn't just one Snellen Chart, or even just 10 - any combination of the Sloan letters will do. The answers are just pass or fail, not open to interpretation and classification. More crucially, however, it's a test of visual acuity, not of personality. Even psychopaths can have perfect vision.
 * I am quite prepared to discuss the relative influence of pre-exposure to the validity of tests in general, even Snellen Charts, and psychometric tests in particular. But the main problem I see with the inclusion of the quote at the top of this discussion is that Dr Heilman's notability arises solely from his participation in this article, not as an expert in any kind of psychological (or even optical) testing. I don't think Dr Heilman is crazy, just a little `short-sighted', perhaps. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Many people have twisted the meaning of what I have said. I have never said that it was good / ethically or that I approve of people cheating on eye tests. Just that we need to realize 1) some people will "cheat" no matter what 2) those people will sometimes need to accept the consequences of these actions 3) we do have some techniques to pick up those with conversion disorders. Now WRT the Rorschach test yes some people will cheat however Wikipedia does not change this once bit. Those who are willing to cheat in this manner are not people with severe depression at a subdiagnosistic level as some have suggested but people with personality disorders or just normal people having fun.  Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 18:00, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think that the Wikipedia inkblots make it much easier to "cheat", whatever the motivation. But worse than that, I believe they also make it much easier for someones' "imitial reaction" to the blots to be compromised, largely unwittingly, when that person has no intention of cheating and has not even asked to see the inkblots. But my main issue in this discussion thread is that the Snellen Chart and the Rorschach are just too different for a valid comparison to be made. And that the NYT interviwee is not an espert in either of these respective fields. It might help if the text was changed to something like this: "Dr. James Heilman, a Canadian emergency room physician involved in the debate over the inclusion of the images in the Wikipedia article .." But I'd really like to see a separate reference to support the claim about `general usefulness as a diagnostic tool for eyesight not being diminished'. I don't believe that Dr. Heilman's opinion, whatever it is, is really notable enough to be reported here without any qualification. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:28, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems to me that the article fairly represents the major views. Heilman's status is qualified. You may have your own opinion about whether WP contributes to deliberate or unintentional cheating, whether such cheating influences test scores, and whether such an influence is beneficial or harmful. I suspect that the influence is slight, and that it is overwhelmingly beneficial, to the extent that there is influence. But these things have to come from reliable sources. As far as I know, there is no evidence that there is any harm, and no argument that the harm outweighs the benefit. Roger (talk) 23:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, I’d agree that the article “fairly represents the major views”. This seems to be what “consensus” means to WP. But the discussion here is about comparison with the Snellen Chart, in particular Dr. Heilman’s reported comment about this comparison. I’d agree that the interviewing and reporting by the NYT, of someone involved in discussing this WP article, is notable. But I don’t agree that this then qualifies Dr Heilman’s opinions on the Snellen Chart as being notable. The situation would be the same if the NYT had interviewed and reported me – I am simply not qualified in this area as an expert. But I also don’t agree that his reported opinion represents a “major view” in this debate, or even in this Talk Page. And it is certainly unsupported by any source. Additionally though, I wonder if you could explain why you see cheating in the Rorschach as “overwhelmingly beneficial”? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Not only is this a self-reference like Martinevans123 says. And if James Heilman argues he was not dismissive, his Snellen test analogy only gets to his point of the pseudo bart simpson defense: Everyone does it, so it doesn't matter. Given that identifing correct answers in the Snellen chart is dependent only on a common alphabet, concerned optometrists have an easy fix, make a new one. This is clearly not the case for the Rorschach. Again, this is an issue that optometrists would have the last word on. Analogy discarded.
 * The elephant in the room is the publication of the Rorschach test. And even more. That Dr Heilman argumentation of it publication relies on disruptive agents absent from this choatic discussion. This claimed “consensus” is as fragile as the 20 to 30 people that would suddenly come to Dr Heilman's rescue if he waivered in his belief and "status quo consensus" came into question. He does not have to play by any rules whatsoever, rules that anyone BUILDING a rational case does have to submit to. So Dr. Heilman, "chaos quo" is on your side and you won!! or maybe you did not. In any case this "status quo consensus" is artificial and only exists in a subwikipedia comunity. I'm just calling it what it is. But do not fret, this text will also be archived. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.157.156 (talk) 02:28, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Online Scoring?
Schlafly posted a link to an "online scoring" website that's currently nonfunctional. As far as I'm aware this web program didn't do scoring for you--that is, it didn't take raw responses and turn them into results as suggested by the context. Rather, it was a tool to aid in scoring to improve on the paper formula sheets and tables that the scorer might have otherwise used.

Anyone have any information otherwise? If not, the mention doesn't belong where it was put, and probably is not sufficiently notable for the article at all. Crcarlin (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's what it looked like in 2008: http://web.archive.org/web/20080730041712/http://www.rorschach.org/scoring.htm . It would probably be considered inappropriate for both a reference and an external link so remove away... – xeno <sup style="color:black;">talk 01:40, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's what I expected (why didn't I check the web archive myself?). The program is a specialized web calculator of use only to people with the extensive training needed to score the Rorschach by hand. It's like an engineer using a calculator to help design a bridge. Crcarlin (talk) 02:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Or possibly like a surveyor using a theodolite to more accurately measure how much that bridge has deformed from its original straight and strong composition? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not really the same. The theodolite is key to the process, actually making measurements. These calculators are mainly bookkeepers, helping the scorer keep his data straight as he works through his process. They can in no way replace the manual scoring and interpretation of the exam as context suggests and Roger incorrectly states elsewhere. Crcarlin (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I quite agree. My theodolite analogy is more appropriate to the paper and pencil administration of the test, i.e. the measuring process. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The test is commonly scored with computer programs, and I thought that the article should say so. I put in a better reference for scoring programs. Roger (talk) 16:21, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The test is commonly scored with computer programs in the same way that bridges are designed with four function calculators... who cares? It would be one thing if the programs actually did scoring or interpreting, spitting out analyses from the raw data, but they don't. They simply speed up some of the tasks involved in Rorschach analysis while helping to avoid mistakes. Crcarlin (talk) 13:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The program certainly does spit out analyses from the raw data. You can look at a sample output here. http://www.psychinaction.com/uimages/33.pdf Roger (talk) 18:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * To continue the "an engineer uses a calculator to design a bridge" analogy, you've just pointed to the bridge as evidence that the calculator designed it on its own. In reality the report that you pointed to includes a whole lot of non-automatable work on the part of a human interpreter. Programs like RIAP help but they do not and cannot replace skilled human interpreters.
 * Look: Rorschach test analysis is extremely reliant on things humans can do but computers simply can't. For example, say the client sees a bird in a card. It makes a huge difference whether this bird was a monster, or food, or a character from TV, or a normal, every day bird. Computers can't read a transcript and judge context well enough to categorize this. Hell, it's sometimes hard for humans to do it--that's why the training for Rorschach analysts is so long and difficult.
 * So once again, you're pointing to tools to help format reports and look up data in support of an analyst, not programs that can do the analysis themselves. Crcarlin (talk) 14:50, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * RIAP 5 for Windows does look like a way of automating the process of interpretation. But, as with most other projective psychometric measures, what would be more surprising would be an accredited computer-based system for administering the test, i.e. allowing for remote testing without the need for face-to-face interview and paper amd pencil recording of responses. But this seems quite contrary to the general ethos of Rorschach and I think that the only examples provided in previous discussiona have been dubious Rorschach-lookalike web sites. I also note that Roger's link includes this passage: Occasionally, records will be “too good to be true,” by, for example, including all 13 Popular responses (compared to a range of 5 to 7 among nonpatients). Records that are unusual by virtue of an overabundance of common responses may reflect coaching or careful preparation and, thus, provide a clue to deception (faking good). I think this is the problem that, it is argued, an over-exposure to the images will possibly magnify. But I'm not sure how the effects of this problem would be affected, in turn, by an automated interpretation process. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So are you opposed to having the article describing how computer programs are commonly used with the test? Roger (talk) 02:50, 31 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't speak for Martinevans123, but I am opposed to the article suggesting that computer programs can take the place of the trained interpreter, which seems to be the direction you're going, Roger. I don't think the computer programs should be mentioned at all simply because they're not noteworthy. If you really think they should be mentioned, it should be made clear that they're simply tools to help with calculations and formatting. Crcarlin (talk) 15:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I can speak for Martinevans123, and he's more concerned that "RIAP 5 for Windows" looks like a very quick and easy method for an attorney to convert raw Rorschach responses into a readable psychological report for a courtroom setting. Does that make it noteworthy? He's not sure. But then he's very cynical. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:55, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That's not what that program does any more than a five function calculator spits out the design for a bridge based on the length of the span. RIAP can't go from raw responses to a report as it can't tell whether a examinee seeing a dead bird is seeing a happy Christmas goose or a festering corpse. A trained human interpreter is required to do that. Crcarlin (talk) 01:16, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If there is good refs discussing the use of computer programs being used to interpret the Rorschach than yes we should discuss it. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:24, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

Rorschach and measure of perception
Can anyone explain why the Rorschach test has relevance to perception? There are more senses than just visual. --96.244.248.77 (talk) 03:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * What, just because it doesn't cover every type of perception it's not relevant? Is a history textbook not relevant to history because it doesn't contain every event that has ever happened?
 * The Rorschach test uses perception to make observations of an examinee. It's not a test of perception itself. Crcarlin (talk) 11:10, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

BruceGrubb's edit
I reverted BruceGrubb's edit from May 15th for two reasons. First, it was poorly worded... I'm not sure what he was trying to convey by "author" and "publisher." Second, it was poorly cited and the one citation it had was from the 50s. The Rorschach has come pretty far in the past half-century.

I appreciate BruceGrubb's contribution and am not trying to shut him down. I'd definitely encourage him to try to reword his edit with more (and more current) citations and try again.

Here's his original text: "Similarly, the procedures for coding responses are fairly well specified but extremely time-consuming leaving them very subject to the author's style and the publisher to the quality of the instructions (such as was noted with one of Bohm's textbooks in the 1950s ) as well as clinic workers (which would include examiners) being encouraged to cut corners"
 * (.. just for the record, could you sign your comment, Crcarlin? Not sure why it failed to autosign. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:05, 29 May 2011 (UTC))


 * Here is the original text I was trying to fix:

"Similarly, the procedures for coding responses are fairly well specified but extremely time-consuming to inexperienced examiners, who may cut corners as a result."


 * The Journal of personality assessment's review of the textbook in question notes problems with "uncommonly stiff and pedantic version of Bohm's free-flowing style" and "the publisher's unfortunate decision to cut corners and delete important material" To use terms from my own field of anthropology some authors writing styles are more suited to explanation rather than explication and when publishers change that style unintended results happen.


 * Right, but that's an ancient analysis of an even more ancient textbook :) Would you talk about the reliability of cars based on reliability problems documented based on the Model T?


 * It is even more problematic when in an effort to cut costs (ie cut corners) a publisher deletes important material on top of changing said style.


 * Sure the wording wasn't the best in the world but it is what I had to work with and this is the closet thing that actually used "cutting corners" in the text and it was certainly better than the no reference we originally had.


 * As far "The Rorschach has come pretty far in the past half-century" goes one only have to read Bornstein, Robert F. Joseph M. Masling (2005) Scoring the Rorschach: Seven Validated Systems Lawrence Erlbaum Associates to watch that idea do a major crash and burn. There is no "The Rorschach" but rather several methods of using the cards and some of them such as Klopfer's Rorschach Prognostic Rating Scale pg 22-46 and Masling, Raie, and Blondhein's 1967 ROD scale (pg 114-135) are insanely old.  Remember in 1959 some 8 years after the reference paper by Klopfer Lee Cronbach himself stated "There is nothing in the literature to encourage reliance on Rorschach interpretations" a opinion echoed over the years by Reber, Dawes, and in the cases of Jones v Apfel (1997) and US v Battle (2001), and again with Drenth, Pieter J.D. (2003) (who compared Rorschach tests to Phrenology).--BruceGrubb (talk) 08:11, 29 May 2011 (UTC)


 * But then that's painting with a mile-wide brush. Some people choose to use ancient, unvalidated, undeveloped, unsupportable techniques, and legitimate psychologists rightfully reject these people. But it's not really fair to lump the legitimate uses of the Rorschach exam in with those illegitimate uses without a huge clarification. Maybe we can word this better. Crcarlin (talk) 18:45, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

There's another issue with the edit: "extremely time consuming" does not imply "subject to author's style" as the new text states. Time consuming does leave encouragement to cut corners, but it's more things like the precision required for the explanation that leave author's style as a factor.

I'd like to work on the working for this section tonight, if I remember and have a chance. Crcarlin (talk) 18:48, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Comments about the ink blots
Many citation here, don't follow the Verifiability the right way. You should cite the book, not only one of the autors surnames, the year and the page. Many information here is not verifiable and could be removed! EternamenteAprendiz (talk) 23:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

03:39, 17 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Oppose move, as per users Ljl, Garrondo and Zad68. Talk about a storm in a "T-cup"! ;-)  yoyo (talk) 06:26, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protection, category removal...?
The latest edit to the article removed it from, as the edit summary states, and also added a semi-protection template. I don't believe that was there previously... is there a rationale? LjL (talk) 22:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

•SUPPORT Test protection.

I support that the images and common answers of the test are removed from Wikipedia. The method is widely used in healthcare and remembering the images and common answers reduces the potential of the test. And so it makes your treatment harder. I think it is similar if you memorize some memory tests and then go to dementia assessment.

The thing is
... the information on 'common responnses is out there' whether or not it appears on WP. To me Card 1 #always# invokes "wolf's head" and 4 'biker (possibly waiting for one to cross the road)'.

As information on the images was always likely to shit 'through the internet tubes' either a new or extended set of images should bave been developed or the effect of such feed-through be incorporated into the use of the images. 80.254.147.68 (talk) 14:03, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't be affiliated with or have any connection with the source of those plates, as at the very least cards I, II, V and VI are not Rorschach platesDirtclustit (talk) 09:14, 5 November 2013 (UTC)

Does the 'Father card' have the correct information?
It looks like cards 4 and 6 have the same 'Beck/Piotrowski' information, but the explanation to the right does not match properly (for card 4).

It appears that the card 4 information was cut/paste accidentally and not updated properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.63.148.205 (talk) 06:26, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Efficacy misspelled
Could an established editor please fix the spelling of "efficacy" (which is misspelled as "effiacy" in one section)? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.69.160.1 (talk) 09:36, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Today's Google image
... involves an inkblot doodle, to commemmorate Rorschach's birth and this is discussed on various newspaper websites. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:12, 8 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it made in into Hermann Rorschach, which is probably quite appropriate, as it was the anniversary of the man, not the blots. I'd not object to having it mentioned here also, although I'm not sure where it would best be placed. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:02, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

"Exner Scoring System" link
I believe the link "Exner Scoring System" (in the introduction) should lead not to Exner's biography on Wikipedia but to the section of this article titled "Exner Scoring System." As it is, a roundabout is created where you click that link in the introduction and you go to John Exner's article, but then the link in Exner's biography "Exner System of Scoring" leads back to this article. It's a bit confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.185.51.2 (talk) 20:42, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Deleted text
I thought the sentence does not belong in this article. QuackGuru ( talk ) 19:16, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
 * And I thought it was a compromise outcome after months of heated and protracted Talk Page debate and an RfC. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:33, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Rorschak article on Wikipedia
Doesn't get to the point quickly enough.
 * WHich point is this? Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 19:37, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Japanese section seems spurious
I am *very* dubious about the supposed Japanese fondness for Rorschach testing as expressed in the current Japan section of this article.

Not only have I never personally seen anything like that, but please go look at the Japanese Wikipedia page on Rorschach testing: that page is very short, which does not comport at all with any supposed large amount of interest in this test in Japan.

Also, while there are two "cites" on the English page to this supposed Japanese interest in Rorschach testing, both are to a single dubious *British* source, a "Dr. Inkblot" program broadcast on July 25, 2012. I would be much more comfortable if there were cites to actual Japanese sources, preferably academic ones related to the field. It would also be more confidence building if there were also a reasonable number of these in order to bolster this astonishing claim.

Also, please note that the Japanese Rorschach Test page only has one single link, that being to the Japanese Society for the Rorschach and Projective Methods at Gifu University, which I don't find very impressive at all.


 * I would like to add, as a Japanese resident (non-native but for several years), that I both share the skepticism of the above commenter and note that the only two actual citations (as opposed to external links not directly supporting any specific claim) in the Japanese Wikipedia article are to books whose very titles describe the Rorschach and similar tests as "lies," "stupid," and "wrong." Were the test particularly popular in Japan, I would suspect that someone, not the least from the aforementioned Society, would be able to add at least a single citation supporting the Rorschach test's validity.

157.192.51.88 (talk) 14:26, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure how many readers this article gets in Japan. Some refs, , Martinevans123 (talk) 18:04, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

inkblot section not readable on mobile
Should galleries be used here or some other template? The table is unreadable on mobile :( Jdlrobson (talk) 08:48, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * What device, OS, browser? Table reads fine here on iPhone 5/iOS8/Safari. –<b style="font-family:verdana;color:#000">xeno</b><sup style="color:#000">talk 12:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 May 2015
Entire blot Refers to the area on the inkblot that is used Each location is given both a designation for the specific area and a symbol to indicate quality of response. whole (W)                   = Entire blot used Common Detail(D)     =welldefined part used Unusual detail (Dd)   =unusuall part used Use of white space (S)=percept defined by white space

39.41.21.120 (talk) 16:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. --I am  k6ka  Talk to me!   See what I have done  16:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

New Rorschach online test with pretty accurate results
I think it will be useful to add link to this online test made by russian psyhologist student http://rorschach-inkblot-test.com/. It has most accurate results from all online tests i've passed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorshach 777 (talk • contribs) 15:52, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
 * How about the copyright? As far as I know, Rorschach is not free to copy? Another question is quality and validation? I assume that you are this student ? :-) Why do you think, that it is more than a game? --Brainswiffer (talk) 15:05, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes the guy who drew the 10 inkblots is more than 70/90 years dead per Hermann_Rorschach. Therefore these images are public domain which is how we are able to have them here. Now a company in Switzerland does claim to own them and they send out legal threats such as they did to us but this is just intimidation and they know they do not have the law on their side. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 06:15, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I see. Copyright of the pictures may not be the biggest problem. But if this "test" namedrops Rorschach and - as I assume - there is no sufficiant validation of the very absolute interpretations, this is a problem of quality. Its not a test, but a psychological game. Or the test is also "*stolen" from some newer "standardized" developments, I remember regarding Rorschach test? Theen the copyright question comes again. --Brainswiffer (talk) 06:34, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes I am not saying we should link to this site. The next question is are ideas copyrightable? And the answer is no. As long as the person who created this website paraphrased rather than copied and pasted from sources they are okay.
 * Now on to the question of does this test "work". That is a completely different matter entirely and one I am not going to get into. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 07:38, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, most I agree. But published ideas must be protected by copyright, otherwise its not possible to "survive" for thinking and writing persons. And as far as I know, a standardised Rorschach exists. I do not know, to which extent this person copypasted this. When you see also a quality problem (psychological tests have fo fulfill some criteria, f.e. reliability and validity), this is a good reason not to add this link here. --Brainswiffer (talk) 05:50, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * If you publish something you own that arrangement of words. You do not own the ideas. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 06:51, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * First: any copyright can't exist for 100 years, so it is free and many psyhologist all over the world are using it right now. All results in this test are not "stolen" from any "standardized" developments, just copy some part of any result and search it in Google - you will see that results are unique.Second: quality and validation - nobody says that online test could replace real testing, but online test could be usefull for great part of users who want to take it online. Here you can see russian version of this online test - http://lml.com.ua/test-rorshaha/

How do you think if results quality and validation have low level could this page get 18000 facebook shares and 150000 users just for two months? You can also read comments what real people are thinking about their results Rorshach 777 (talk • contribs) 11:56, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no consensus to link to your website. Sorry. Doc James  (talk · contribs · email) 09:04, 22 May 2015 (UTC)
 * +1, Facebook shares and users you also have in games or esoteric stuff. Its not a sign for quality of a psychological test (and Rorschach is one of this). "Rorschach Game" without any claim of validity describes it more. --Brainswiffer (talk) 08:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * This is an odd objection. If we rejected tests because of doubts about quality and validity, then this whole Rorschach article would be deleted. Even when given by psychologists, it is just an amusing unscientific game. So I suggest inserting the link. The reader can decide for himself how worthwhile it is. Roger (talk) 14:57, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Not quite correct. Rorschach and his test was state of the art at his time (!), and we also reflect critics from the view of today. But we have 2015 now :-)I know from BPS discussions, that the use of the word psychological test in UK also is connected to (minimal) quality requirements. The interpretation "report" of this "game" is not validated and in formulations too much absolutely. When you find this on an psychological article, the misunderstanding can be: this is state of the art of all psychological tests. --Brainswiffer (talk) 16:06, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * 1. Brainswiffer, you say that you "know from BPS discussions, that the use of the word psychological test in UK also is connected to (minimal) quality requirements." Would you like to explain exactly what you mean by that?
 * 2. Very lengthy discussions here some years ago concluded that the inkblot images themselves are no longer protected by any copyright anywhere in the world. But I'm not sure that's true of the technique for interpreting and scoring, is it? It's unclear how close the "Russian online Facebook version" is to the materials owned by Hogrefe Publishing Ltd, which has a registered trade mark for the test: . If it's identical (or close enough), I suspect there would be some infringement of Hogrefe's copyright.
 * 3. We currently link to "an interactive version of the Harrower-Erickson Multiple Choice Rorschach Test": . Why is that? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:08, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

My opinion is that the site is not appropriate for the article. The article says "subjects' perceptions of inkblots are recorded and then analyzed using psychological interpretation, complex algorithms, or both", I don't think we have any reason to believe that this online test is consistent with that. <b style="color:Navy">Chillum</b> 16:11, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I know from discussions of EFPA (Board of Assessment), ITC and the ISO 10667 some colleagues of BPS (f.e. Dave Bartram). I know, that there are some important initatives (best seen here: http://www.intestcom.org/page/5) with "British lead" and I was very impressed about the effords of BPS (I am familiar with German and Swiss situation). There is also a good co-operation with U.S (see ITC) I cannot imagine, that this standards are without influence for public description of any psychological tests here (and a link here is something like a public recommendation). I also know, that UK has one of most elaborated systems of applicant qualification and test evaluation. We reflect this very carefully also in German WP. I came only to your WP, because this link also was "spammed" there - and deleted. This special test has not any validation as far as I see. In do not know the other mentioned above (and I am a fan of online testing).--Brainswiffer (talk) 18:17, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Many thanks. You from de.wiki? Martinevans123 (talk) 19:27, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am. BTW: User:Rorshach 777 seems to be an expert of some critical thing and my Ghost counts 6 different trackers on his page. Seems the reason for his wish and also an argument against? --Brainswiffer (talk) 06:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * What! You've got a ghost? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, my good ghost prevents spying :-)--Brainswiffer (talk) 16:30, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, you need to tell Jimbo. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:37, 24 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Sure he knows :-) BTW2: The mentionned Rorschach test page was offline, but is back. I wonder why there is no imprint or name on this page, f.e. in Germany a NoGo.--Brainswiffer (talk) 16:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Popular knowledge
Given Wikipedia's fondness for popular culture I'm surprised that this article doesn't touch on the popularity of the Rorschach test in portrayals of psychiatry. The inkblot test is surely the second most popular image of psychiatry next to someone telling you to lie down on a couch and talk about your mother. I'm sure I've seen at least one comedy where a character is given the Rorschach test and gives humorously over-the-top responses. (Probably The Simpsons.)

And surely the fact that anyone in the Western world who's given this test will have already seen it on TV, and will have certain preconceptions, affects its validity. --87.224.68.42 (talk) 09:37, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Or not just on TV, but at Wikipedia, where they could study, and even learn, the most common reactions, in detail, at their leisure? Whatever could you be suggesting about validity? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:55, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 October 2015
A portion of the article currently reads, "...but after Exner's death, the Exner family forbade any changes to be made to the Comprehensive System.[58] Therefore, they established a new system: the R-PAS."

I'd like to request an addition so that part reads, "...but after Exner's death, the Exner family forbade any changes to be made to the Comprehensive System.[58] Therefore, they established a new system: the R-PAS. The director of Rorschach Workshops, an Exner family member, has since stated that Dr. Exner always considered the System to be a "work in progress" and that they never forbade making changes. They believe another family member may have voiced a mistaken opinion."

This information comes directly from Andrea Betts, Dr. Exner's daughter and the current director of Rorschach Workshops. She has personally corresponded with at least two psychologists about this (I'm one of them) and I'm certain she'd be willing to verify her position upon Wikipedia's request. If needed, I'd be willing to facilitate that. I believe this is an important correction because considerable research with developing the System is ongoing and the assertion that such activity is "forbidden by the Exner family" is not only erroneous but it puts a shadowy cast on the researchers and dissuades further research on the System. It also creates a self-fulfilling prophecy that the Comprehensive System is dead.

Rorscan (talk) 03:49, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Unfortunately, we cannot accept your revision as it constitutes original research. Wikipedia runs on published reliable sources like the ones already referenced in the article.  We cannot put in a family member's thought on the matter unless it has been published by a source and can be verified.  If you can provide a source that says what you want to place in the article please reactive this request and someone can take a look at it.  Thank you. --Stabila711 (talk) 06:09, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

On the notion that publishing these actually reduces the effectiveness of them as a tool for mental health professionals
Was just part of a very lively debate amongst some psychiatrists on the fact these inkblots are "so easily" findable on Wikipedia, thus reducing their effectiveness in actual psychology tests. You'll find fewer people as big a fan of Wikipedia as I, however I was wondering if we could make the actual inkblots a bit harder to find - say put them behind a click or two so that researchers can find them, but patients won't accidentally find them. Thoughts? Flintmichigan (talk) 20:32, 11 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If you really want to see what happened here, you probably need to start at Archive 4 (early 2008) and then plough your way through the next 4 Archives and the RfC which eventually resulted. If you suffer from insomnia you may well be cured by the time you get to the result. I don't want to ruin your excitement by dropping in a spoiler so soon, but the basic outcome was like something this - Wikipedia doesn't need to listen to the concerns of any group with a "vested interest" - whether that be the publisher Verlag Hans Huber, Hogrefe AG., or any particular professional body of psychiatrists, or psychologists, be it in the USA, or in Canada or in the UK. All the images are freely available in the public domain and have been for years. The test is generally of "doubtful value" or has recently "fallen out of favour" and does not need "protecting" in any way, because it is "special". And so to not show the images, completely and openly, cannot be logically supported in a way that is consistent with current copyright law, even though there may be studies which suggest that pre-exposure to the images affects the results in a test-retest situation. That was the outcome, with about 3 of us arguing for the full set of image to be partly or wholly hidden (or at least hidden to start with) and about 40 or so arguing that this was a non-sensensical waste of time. The debate was so heated and bitter, in fact, that some Wikipedia editors became minor celebrities and it was decided that all future postings on this subject, like yours, would need to be moved to "a special place". So I expect User:Doc James will be along quite soon to do just that (and of course, to correct any errors in my very hasty narrative above). But, by all means, go and read the Archives and make up your own mind. And if you have any evidence that more test-re-test studies have been done since about 2010, and reported in a peer-reviewed journal, I'm sure we'd all like to hear about them. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:00, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2016
Please change the page from semi-protected to unprotected so I can expand on the Content and Location sections, and elaborate in the Method section using verifiable and reliable sources (Erdberg, 1996, Exner, 1986).

Specific changes to be made: Method Side-by-side seating of the examiner and subject is used to reduce any effects of inadvertent cues from the examiner to the subject. In other words, to avoid the examiner accidentally influencing the subjects responses.

Contents The goal in coding Contents of the Rorschach test is to categorize the objects that the subject describes in response to the inkblot. There are 27 established codes for identifying the name of the object used to describe the inkblot. It includes terms such as "human", "nature", "animal", "clothing", "fire", and "x-ray" to name a few. Content described that does not have an already established code should be coded under "idiographic contents" ("Idio").

Location Identifying the location of the subjects response is an element scored in the Rorschach system. Location refers to how much of the inkblot was used to answer the question. Administrators score the response "W" if the whole inkblot was used to answer the question, "D" if a commonly described part of the blot was used, "Dd" if an uncommonly described or unusual detail was used, or "S" if the white space in the background was used. A score of W is typically associated with the subject's motivation to interact with his or her surrounding environment. D is interpreted as one having efficient or adequate functioning. A high frequency of responses coded Dd indicate some maladjustment within the individual. Responses coded S indicate an oppositional or uncooperative test subject (Erdberg, 1996, Exner, 1986).

Will also add a description of the subject age range that can be tested using the Rorschach (i.e., test is appropriate for individuals ages 5 to adult).

References used: Erdberg, P. E. (1996). The Rorschach. In C. S. Newmark (Ed.) Major Psychological Assessment Instruments, Boston: Allyn & Bacon. Exner, J. E. (1986). The Rorschach: A comprehensive system, Volume 1: Basic Foundations (2nd ed.). Wiley & Sons, Inc.

Cschoon (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If you make seven more edits to other articles, you will become autoconfirmed and will be able to edit this article. Ruslik_ Zero 20:19, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Rates of usage
I removed the following material from the lead, for a few reasons, mainly because it was undue on account of outdated sources or because the wording was misleading and it wasn't appropriate for the lead after rewording.

Most of the material is attributed to [6] which was published in 1994 and is much too old to be worthwhile. Source [7] is supporting pretty useless info that appears to be synthesis with source [6] considering they were published over 10 years apart. Source [8] doesn't indicate that it was actually a study conducted in 2000 of social workers in UK correctional facilities, which is pretty outdated anyway and even if it were reworded to be more accurate, the level of specific detail there is undue for the lead. Source [9] was referring to a study conducted in 2000 and it doesn't say what date range the study was looking at, but it seems like it might be talking about an average over the last 40 years. And as far as psychology grad programs, that's not at all what the chapter says. It says 80% of students reported their school gave an overview of Rorschach as part of an introductory course, 23% said their school offered a Rorschach-only introductory course, 25% attended schools that offered it as part of an advanced course and out of those, only 22% were Rorschach-only. We can't extrapolate from that what percentage of school teach it. —PermStrump ( talk )  03:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

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Impact of Wikipedia publication
Several years after the event - has there been any evidence of a negative or positive impact? 89.197.114.132 (talk) 16:28, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I have never seen any. How would one measure this and be confident in attributing the effect to this article? Do the rates of psychometric test use by public bodies ever get published? If responses from individual test subjects have been skewed by pre-exposure, how could this ever be measured? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * If one assumes that the usefulness of the blots is in part merely that they are a standard set of images (which have no cultural baggage) allowing the analyst to compare and contrast different types of perception, personality, and mental activity (and making use of what is found through the whole interaction and not just the test itself) - was there a change in responses between responses before and after the images appeared on Wikipedia? And how widely available were 'the images' before Wikipedia provided them (which may affect the validity of the anti-WP claims). 89.197.114.132 (talk) 18:11, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * A good question. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
 * 'Some academic/statistical researcher who knows about such things' who is monitoring this page could probably do a metastudy or other research taking reports from 'shortly before the WP reveal', 'a few weeks afterwards' (when there was much discussion) and 'now' (when the issue has faded into the background). 'They' will get the credit of a scholarly article and WPians get informed - a win-win situation. :)
 * 'The whole context' will have to be considered - to take a simplistic example someone who sees a wolf's head in the first image will be 'saying' something different if they live in environments with or without real wolves. 89.197.114.132 (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I admire your optimism. But academic studies are not timed to coincide with changes to the visibility of images in Wikipedia articles. And I'm really not sure how "the whole context" would be adequately controlled for in a scientific study such as the one you're hoping for; people's real experiences are just random events that can be expected to have no statistical influence. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:45, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Most people can see the convenient aspects of having a standard set of images, and that the responses will be interpreted in the context of a wider process (and how many people looking at the images on the WP page do actually rotate them to see what their brain now comes up with - probably more now that it has been suggested): and the analysts' previous experience/knowledge.
 * One of the aspects of WP for professionals is perhaps to see 'what interests, puzzles or is (mis)interpreted by the people using WP sufficiently interested to post to the talk page - and also to see what is not covered (which is also useful for those looking for ideas for theses and books to write). So the question is now a challenge to anyone looking for a subject of statistical and metadata analysis. 89.197.114.132 (talk) 16:18, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

In Popular Culture
I feel it would be worth mentioning the uses of Rorschach in media and culture, especially in the graphical novel Watchmen. The use of Rorschach is visual theme and a character in the series Watchmen, and there is a film by the same name. Normally I'd just add it, as I can't see anything controversial here, but the editing rights are locked. There is a wikipedia page on the character of Rorschach already for linking.Theodore Schultz Iversdale (talk) 09:25, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Editing
Hello,

I am in a clinical psychology graduate course and want to add information to the page. Under the "Uses" section I wanted to expand on the information where the test could be used but it is semi-protected. Can I gain access to add this information with sources? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thompkeh (talk • contribs) 03:51, 20 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Hello, Thompkeh .Take a look at AUTOCONFIRM - that should explain things. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:39, 20 April 2018 (UTC) p.s. don't forget to sign your posts here with four tildes like this: ~

Minor correction -William Poundstone's book was published in 1985, not 1983. (I recommend reading it if you can.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:603:1200:559:D06D:1A16:5D7:73AC (talk) 16:27, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Broken Reference
Ref 81 links to a story about a toy shop closing, not about Nazis having Rorschach tests. 2001:920:3017:136:AD7C:BE67:DBDA:FE81 (talk) 13:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
 * ✅. Well spotted, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:06, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2020
It is requested that the following edits replace the "Determinants" section.

Determinants

Systems for Rorschach scoring generally include the domain of "determinants:" these are the factors that contribute to establishing the similarity between the inkblot and the subject's content response about it. They can also represent certain basic experiential-perceptual attitudes, showing aspects of the way a subject perceives the world. Rorschach's original work used only form, color and movement as determinants. However currently, another major determinant considered is shading, which was inadvertently introduced by poor printing quality of the inkblots. Rorschach initially disregarded shading, since the inkblots originally featured uniform saturation, but later recognized it as a significant factor.

Form (i.e., perceptions related to the shape of the blot) is the most common determinant and is thought to be related to intellectual processes.

Color responses, said to provide direct insight into the examinee’s emotional life, fall within two categories: chromatic color (coded as C) and achromatic color (coded as C’). A response that includes chromatic color includes the use of a color other than gray, black, or white (e.g., “the blue reminds me of the lake”). In contrast, a response that includes achromatic color only makes mention of gray, black, or white.

Movement and shading determinants vary across scoring systems both in definition and interpretation. Rorschach considered movement only as the experiencing of actual motion, while others have widened the scope of this determinant, taking it to mean that the subject sees something "going on".

Movement responses fall within three categories: human movement (coded as M), animal movement (coded as FM), and inanimate movement (coded as m). Human movement responses include any reference to human movement or action and are said to be associated with problem-solving abilities. Animal movement is coded when there is reference to any movement of animals. However, scoring systems differ on whether the response needs to be appropriate to the animal’s species (e.g., “a dog is wagging its tail;” vs. “a dog is flying”). Animal movement responses are said to be associated with an individual’s drive state. Inanimate movement responses include any response in which an inanimate object is described as in motion (e.g., a flag is waving). These responses are said to be related to an individual’s perception of their current stress .. All of these movement determinants are further coded as either active or passive in nature.

Similar to movement responses, shading responses also fall within three categories: diffuse (coded as Y), texture (coded as T), and vista (coded as V). Diffuse shading is coded whenever a response references variation in ink saturation that is not related to dimensionality or tactile impression (e.g., “it looks dark and light, like an x-ray”). Such responses are said to be associated with emotional reactions to stressful situations. By contrast, texture is coded whenever a response uses light or dark variations to give a sense of tactile impression (e.g., “some parts are lighter and some parts are darker, like it would feel furry”). Such responses are said to be associated with interpersonal needs or concerns. Finally, vista is coded any time a response refers to variations in ink saturation used to give a sense of depth or dimensionality (e.g., “the lighter spots make it look like it goes back into the distance”). Depending on the scoring system, vista responses have been said to be related to negative emotions or to perspective taking.

Above is not an exhaustive list of determinants but serves as examples of some of the most widely scored and interpreted.

More than one determinant can contribute to the formation of the subject's perception. Fusion of two determinants is taken into account, while also assessing which of the two constituted the primary contributor. For example, "form-color" implies a more refined control of impulse than "color-form". It is, indeed, from the relation and balance among determinants that personality can be most readily inferred. Overt1mm (talk) 04:04, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. I am leaving this open for a while. If this edit is implemented, linnks to other articles will need to get added so the potential reader can find an explanation if he doesn't know something. Victor Schmidt (talk) 09:53, 28 April 2020 (UTC)


 * , it might be easier if you highlighted the bits you wanted to be changed, e.g. perhaps using bold text? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:18, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Rorschach
Is this test considered scientific? 139.138.6.121 (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2021 (UTC)


 * yes Reda84100 (talk) 16:08, 26 March 2022 (UTC)


 * See thread below. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:58, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Citation & Addition Suggestions
Hi! I noticed in the Reliability section that there is no citation given for the first statement. I did some digging and found that first statement plus several statements in Reliability section are very similarly worded to statements made in this journal article: Tilottama Mukherjee, Sreetama Chatterjee. (2019). "Revisiting the Rorschach Controversy: The Rorschach Test - A Ghost of the Past or a Bearer of further promise?" Journal of Projective Psychology & Mental Health, (26)2, 118-127. IBSN 0971-6610. Perhaps this may serve as reference for the unreferenced statement.

I would also like to suggest adding these statements to the Reliability section using the above reference. Meta-analyses set the Rorschach test's reliability in the low to mid 0.80s. Test-retest reliability ranges from 0.26 to 0.91. --Jassytron (talk) 01:21, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, it's incredible that you managed to find that - I think that is probably where those statements came from. The problem is that, firstly, it looks like the article has been pretty heavily reworked since then, so those statements may not even be here anymore. I haven't looked through it properly, so I'm not sure how big the changes actually are. Regardless, the second problem is that the journal, Journal of Projective Psychology & Mental Health, isn't indexed in Scopus or Web of Science, which doesn't say great things about its reliability. The journal is also published by an organisation (Somatic Inkblot Society) whose explicit goal of promoting inkblot tests, which doesn't say great things about their independence regarding the Rorschach test. I think we should give this journal a miss, unfortunately. --Xurizuri (talk) 05:31, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 July 2022
Under Controversy -> Validity, please change "... while the Exner proposed a rigorous scoring system, ..." to "... while Exner proposed a rigorous scoring system, ...". I'd guess it just got mixed up with something like "the Exner system" at some point. 35.139.154.158 (talk) 18:31, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:40, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Missed it... by that much.
It's hard to believe that a serious debate exists about publication (i.e., release) of these inkblots. Every person above a certain age who encounters Rorschach test pictures laughs, remembering Maxwell Smart, who said every single card was "two people kissing." Aboctok (talk) 08:18, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

The Unpredictable Twists and Turns of History
According to the article, Rorschach himself, despite having previously held an academic position of some standing, had trouble getting his book published, saw a lacklustre response to his inkblots as a clinical tool, and died soon afterward. How could he have imagined that his test would become so famous as to be a meme in its own right. Aboctok (talk) 08:44, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 January 2024
The article states "Shortly after the publication of Rorschach's book, one of Japan's leading psychiatrists came across a copy in a second-hand book shop. His positive reaction created an enduring popularity for the tests in Japan."

This should be adjusted to "Shortly after the publication of Rorschach's book, one of Japan's leading psychiatrists, Dr. Yuzaburo Uchida, came across a copy in a second-hand book shop. His positive reaction created an enduring popularity for the tests in Japan."

This is based on the source listed in the article. 

Additionally, it might be a good idea to include the Atlantic article "Why the Rorschach Test Is So Big in Japan" as an additional reference. Falsetoad (talk) 19:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * ✅. Thanks. Although the source says that Yuzaburo Uchida is a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)