Talk:Russet sparrow

Pre-GA comments
I'll try and dig up the HBW this weekend. The main comment from a quick glance is organisational. In the section description, I'd break it into two paragraphs, and have on section on general morphology and a second on plumage and moults. I'll take a closer look later. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:22, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * However do you do that with the description? (I've never seen that in an article.) I don't entirely feel up to it; maybe I'll come up with a different organisation. I also want to focus on House Sparrow. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 01:26, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I've done it. Once I expand the lead, add more alt texts, and add info from some papers on moult, I'll nominate this for GA. All the same, if you or anybody with the HBW or Ripley Guide could check if these works have anything not mentioned in here, that would be ensure its completeness. I suppose the one thing I'd like to know is if this could become an FA without substantially more text. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 20:25, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Golden White-eye is currently progressing nicely through FAC and isn't much longer; some species just don't have as much info, but if you use everything there is that isn't a problem. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  20:57, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Have you read this paper? It has info on the fledging time and nestling care of birds in Japan. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  21:05, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'll take a look. There don't seem to be that many papers on this species (I only found one (the one on breeding season feeding with atrocious English—"the Caterpillar, as we have seen is the most important food for Russet Sparrow"—) using a Google Scholar search for "Passer rutilans", plus the woodpecker paper that mentions it briefly). —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 21:38, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The paper wasn't of as much use I expected, since it uses a strange sort of jargon I've never seen before, and is quite focused on the issue of nestling weight. Nothing clear about incubation periods etc., but I've added a bit of information. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 22:13, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Onwards to FA
I would get a second person to look at this for the writing and clarity aspects. The lead needs a bit of expansion, and there are some very minor points left from the GA review. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you think you can check in the HBW for information on breeding (incubation period, etc)? Expansion of the lead seems the priority. The other things not marked with done are mostly things not recorded for this species, and there is also the Thailand issue. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 01:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * HBW has less information that what you have found. The Thailand issue is the only real outstanding issue, but it is fairly minor. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  01:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be happy to provide a review of this article pre-FAC. Ucucha 02:45, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Ucucha.
 * There were several suggested sources posted as hidden comments next to the reference header, and I've found most, including that The Condor paper on global warming, but I can't find "FieldMusNatHistZoolSer18:343" Most papers noted like that are available online. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Here, perhaps. Ucucha 18:11, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * User:Dysmorodrepanis can help you track down the reference. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  18:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * (ec) Actually, this one should be it. P. rutilans is at page 377: . Ucucha 18:16, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * After all this bother, it turns out to be of no use: nothing not in Summers-Smith, and similar to several other sources provided by Shyamal. A search for "Passer rutilans" in the Biodiversity Heritage Library has turned up some interesting things, especially on that Victorian obsession, egg-collecting. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 18:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Thailand
Winter visitor only to northern Thailand according to and    Jimfbleak  -  talk to me?  17:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I tweaked a bit  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  17:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * For FA, I would delink common countries eg India, China, and common words like "wing"  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  17:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There are no dabs or dead links  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  17:13, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Alright: I'll add your suggested Thailand information. I've already checked for dabs and dead links; the Vaurie paper link is a redirect, but the page says to cite that url. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 17:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

host of common cuckoo Cuculus canorus bakeri if you think it's worth adding  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  18:21, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * With this bird probably anything is worth adding. Can you add it, since I don't know how to cite it? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 20:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

A few comments

 * "It has a thick bill suited to eating seeds, which is yellowish or pale grey, with a dusky tip on non-breeding adults and juveniles, and black or blackish on breeding birds." Spot the misplaced modifier!
 * Wonder how that got there. Probably when I made alterations during the GA review.


 * The sentence about flight, coming as it does in the midst of measurements and clinal variations, seems misplaced.
 * I've moved it, but I'm not really satisfied with the arrangement of non-plumage description either.


 * You might consider using the modifier |abbr=on for your convert templates; this means the template won't spell out centimetres (for example) every single time you use it. (Just learned about this one myself...)
 * Done.


 * Birds of the subspecies rutilans have the cheeks and the sides of their neck off-white..." Why not "Birds of the subspecies rutilans are off-white on their cheeks and the sides of their necks..."
 * Added.

MeegsC | Talk 18:53, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Commas are missing in a number of places: for example, "In the Himalayas the Russet Sparrow breeds from..." and "In most of its range the Russet Sparrow breeds ..."
 * Done, in the distribution section. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:05, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Comments
As promised, I've given a read over the article:
 * "The Russet Sparrow prefers higher altitudes in the southern part of its range, but in the north it breeds." - why the "but"?
 * This seems to fit best with the thing on latitude.
 * What is the contrast between the first and second part of the sentence? "But" implies that there is one; I can't see it. Ucucha 23:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Typo: "by the sea" was left out. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * rufous - it's generally better to avoid words like this; "reddish" would mean the same, wouldn't it?
 * Using reddish for most references and a linked rufous for certain ones would seem best.
 * Nothing to remove, as all mentions pertain to back colour. The word is well known enough, and is linked. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:15, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * supercilium - link and/or explain
 * Should be linked, for certain.


 * Could the description include features other than external anatomy?
 * Nothing except characterisations of sparrows in general to be found. Books on birds tend to ignore this, you know.
 * Second check in some Victorian books I thought might contain this found nothing. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:11, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I thought that might be the case. Thanks for the further check. Ucucha 23:18, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "In Sakhalin, moult  occurs in August and September, between the breeding season and the  autumn migration." - no data from anywhere else?
 * Nothing except some extremely puzzling observations made in the 1880s I have yet to understand.
 * I'll add those before sending this to FAC. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "The Russet Sparrow seems to have separated from the other Palearctic black-bibbed  sparrows about 25,000 to 15,000 years ago, during the last glacial period." - you cite this to something from 1988, but would this still be consistent with the latest phylogenetic results? It would imply that five or so other species diverged over the last few thousand years.
 * This is also in the Handbook of the Birds of the World, published last year; what should be done?
 * We probably should include it when the sources say it; I consider it odd though.


 * "flying insects caught by flycatching" - does "flycatching" have any meaning beyond "catching flying insects"? If so, it should be explained or linked.
 * catching them in the air will replace this.
 * "aerial pursuit" is even more of an improvement. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps move conservation status into "Relationship with humans"?
 * I've always preferred placing this in "distribution and habitat" for many birds—as I've just altered it it seems best.

Ucucha 18:47, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Is rufous really that unusual a word? I think it is fine. Sabine's Sunbird  talk  18:55, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. I tend to avoid it but may be too picky.
 * As noted, I think I'll replace some but not all usages

Further comments:
 * Distribution map would be nice
 * Distribution map would be extremely hard to create.
 * Why?
 * Highly complex distribution. I'm only just figuring out how to make things like this, and I haven't created any for Wikipedia yet. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:34, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be willing to help; I have made some relatively complex maps such as File:Oryzomys distribution.png. Ucucha 18:56, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know where except the HBW one would find a map. Do you think you could?


 * The Zoological Record list a number of other publications on the species. A few might add interesting information, such as these:
 * Title: Breeding biology of the russet sparrow Passer rutilans in different habitats. Author(s): Chae, Hee-Young Source: Korean Journal of Ornithology Volume: 4 Issue: 1 Page(s): 47-54 Published: December 1997
 * Included.
 * Seems to be a different article (feeding instead of breeding biology and journal of ecology instead of ornithology). Ucucha 23:21, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Chae's studies contain very little of importance. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Effects of inclement weather conditions on laying interruption and clutch size of the russet sparrow Passer rutilans. Author(s): Chae, Hee-Young Source: Strix Volume: 16 Page(s): 17-23 Published: 1998
 * (ec) In Japanese. Not to be found online, but a similar paper's English summary (I searched some Japanese journal publisher for "Passer rutilans") contained nothing of value; and a paper on parasites, also difficult to understand because of the poor English and a liitle dubious, contained a statement something like "in dirty wet nests corpse were found". I cited it anyhow, but only on parasites recorded. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Variations in fledging body weight and wing length of russet sparrow Passer rutilans in two different habitats. Author(s): Chae, Hee-Young Source: Japanese Journal of Ornithology Volume: 45 Issue: 4 Page(s): 215-225 Published: February 1997
 * Cited.
 * Right, sorry for missing it.


 * Title: Three passerine birds bred in the nests of black kites. Author(s): Takagi, Masaoki; Takahashi, Mitsuhiko Source: Strix Volume: 15 Page(s): 127-129 Published: 1997
 * (ec) I'll add this, but it is in Japanese, with a very brief English summary. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Title: Attracting beneficial birds for the biological control of Dendrolimus punctatus tehchangensis (Lep.: Lasiocampidae). Author(s): Wang, Y.; Liao, Y. Source: Chinese Journal of Biological Control Volume: 6 Issue: 1 Page(s): 25-26 Published: 1990
 * I'll look into the remainder.


 * Most others seem to be uninteresting bird lists but you might want to have another look.
 * (ec) I've done that with Shyamal's recommended sources and the Biodiversity Heritage Libraries; I also searched several papers and exhausted the Google Scholar results. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 23:32, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Overall, the article seems very thorough to me and it should do well at FAC. Good work! Ucucha 19:07, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I've made replies, and will work on the article further. I'll lok through a number of references again, add the things on moult, brood parasitism and so on. Is the lead long enough? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 22:58, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the lead is good. It's missing information from the last section, but that is very brief and doesn't seem to contain much that would be essential to the lead.
 * One more thing: Why do you include the ranks between Passeriformes and Passeridae in the taxobox? Template:Taxobox generally discourages including such minor taxa, and they don't seem especially important to this species. Ucucha 19:00, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Dysmorodrepanis or somebody added them while they were at DYK. I think some may matter. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:07, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I removed two, but not Passeri—these are the "songbirds"—. Is this article ready for FAC then? —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 19:45, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Passeri is the most significant of the three, so that is justifiable. As for FAC, have you looked into the Dendrolimus control paper? I still think a distribution map would add to the article; perhaps Sabine's Sunbird can help there? Neither should hold the article up much, and you can nominate it right away if you prefer. Ucucha 20:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the comments. I have looked into the Dendrolimus paper. Online, it seems to be at two Chinese websites that take hours to load indexes in Chinese (and the paper may be in Chinese, or poor English). I may be able to borrow a print copy, but it will take months. As for the map, it seems only the HBW has an up-to-date map, so it will presumably have to wait until Sabine's Sunbird creates one, or I figure out how to make intricate maps, see and photocopy the HBW, and make a map—probably a matter of months either way. Therefore I'll nominate the article now. —innotata (Talk • Contribs) 20:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I noticed you already added some information that would presumably be in this paper; that's enough for me. Ucucha 20:35, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Author and name
There is some doubts about name, authorship and date of this bird here.--Earwig (talk) 15:05, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It was the discussion at birdforum that brought me here. IOC have 1836 for the description by Temminck and that by Gould but give priority to Temminck. This seems doubtful. - Aa77zz (talk) 11:14, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

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