Talk:San Diego/Archive 3

End of the road?
We have two new sentences saying that San Diego is at the end of El Camino Real and the end of a line of missions. But is this true? We are used to this statement for the US, but wasn't California a contiguous part of Baha California in the 18th century? If so, it wouldn't have been the end. Student7 (talk) 11:41, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I relied on the article El Camino Real for this assertion. That article states that the route began at Mission San Diego, and documentation is given on the talk page. However, elsewhere in that article it says that the route originated in Mexico. Let me think about a way to restate this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MelanieN (talk • contribs) 14:18, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Popular culture?
Is there some reason why this article about San Diego does not have a "references in popular culture" section - as many other articles do? Would it just be too long - to list all the books, movies, songs etc. that mention San Diego? Just wondering. --MelanieN (talk) 23:21, 31 August 2009 (UTC)MelanieN


 * I think you are right about the length. Where appropriate, I suppose some can go into neighborhood articles, but all won't fit there of course. I don't know where the level cutoff exists but probably smaller than SD anyway. Student7 (talk) 00:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, I have seen all the Jurassic Park's, and in The Lost World: Jurassic Park, the T.rex escapes and causes major havoic throughout the city, this is because a plan by the head of InGen proposed a Jurassic Park: San Diego to be built, and that's what is neat because he mentiones that it is a perfect tourism city with our great attraction.--Dinonerd4488 (talk) 16:07, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

The 619??
There has been a bit of an editing war going on about whether "the 619" should be listed as an additional nickname for San Diego. Someone adds it, someone else removes it, someone else adds it again. This should probably be resolved by discussion.

Issues seem to be: is it really a nickname widely used enough to be included in the article? Is it slang and as such not encyclopedic?

Personally I am unfamiliar with the nickname, and I have lived in San Diego for 30 years. However, the question should not be resolved by our personal experience or opinion, but by citation and reference.

--MelanieN (talk) 16:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN
 * A nickname should not be added unless there is a reliable source indicating that it is a common nickname. It may have some popularity with the younger crowd, but I doubt it's widely used outside of a narrow demographic. OhNo itsJamie  Talk 16:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it needs to be supported by reliable sources. Even if it is a slang term that some editor has heard often, that can't be enough to add it to the article, just as my not having heard it on the streets would be sufficient to remove it.  What matters is whether it's cited.  So until someone can provide some reliable citations for explaining the 411 on the 619, it stay o-u-t.   --anietor (talk) 17:12, 3 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Even if it is used by some San Diego residents, in the sense of "it's good to get back to the 619," we would need to see evidence that the term actually refers to the city of San Diego - rather than to the speaker's neighborhood or home turf. It's a little hard to see how it could be a synonym for the city of San Diego, since half the city is in the 858 area code, and many other communities besides San Diego are in the 619 area code. --MelanieN (talk) 23:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN


 * BTW the Urban Dictionary gives a dozen definitions of "the 619", only one of which is "a short reference to the city of San Diego and the surrounding area". The more common uses seem to be 1) a vulgar sexual term and 2) a move in wrestling. By now I am fairly well convinced the term doesn't belong under "city nicknames". --MelanieN (talk) 00:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN


 * Precisely why I've been removing it whenever I see it. No cite, I revert.  Unlike "America's Finest City", which can be found at the top of San Diego's official government web site, in case somebody wants to cite the official nickname. :) So peace out from the 760! Bishop^ (talk) 15:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Rey Masterio is from San Diego, he named his wrestling move The 619 to represent San Diego, and the Sexual term is not 619 but just 69 Just trying to make a point here. Nironn 11:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * What point are you trying to make? The problem is: a) you provide no citation for this claim; b) even IF you provided reliable sources AND it were true, it still doesn't make The 619 a nickname of San Diego; c) you have also made edits changing the nickname to America's Funest City here and America's Estupendo Ciudad here and Estupendo Ciudad de America here.  What this indicates is that you are either unaware of basic WP policy and San Diego history ( this would be quite a generous example of assuming good faith), OR that you are engaging in vandalism.  --anietor (talk) 19:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Well Im sorry If I gave you guys any inconvenience. Please forgive me, I wasnt in a good mood, I have not reach the point of maturity where I cant stop myself from doing wrong things. I dont know what had gone on with me but it just struck me. I saw Fresno's nickname as the 702 and so I thought isnt San Diego's nickname 619 then... well apparantly not, I guess I got caught of guard... Im very sorry, please forgive me.

Nironn 11:45, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Libraries
Actually, libraries apparently go where the editors want them. There is no consensus nor guideline. See Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities/Guideline. It makes no sense to me to put them under education since they lend mostly fiction, are supported by the government, and not by a school board. Classics, nowdays, go into the discard file because no one wants to borrow them! Hardly "education." They've always been "cultural" in the past. Since "cultural" is a polite euphemism for just about anything, including contemporary music, it makes more sense to place them there.

"Education" to me seems like WP:PR, "pushing" for public support for a system that is faltering. Librarians themselves are (or should be) quite concerned with where their facility and job will be in ten years. Everything they have is downloadable. While this may not be the venue to discuss that, this apparently has become the venue for discussing why libraries must be included in an area they haven't been historically associated with in the past, all of the sudden. Student7 (talk) 12:47, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Student, why are you ranting about this? Was there a recent dispute or edit war in this article about where to put this topic?  I think you are correct that there is no guideline (at least I can't find one).  But doing a quick (and admittedly non-scientific) search of other cities, it appears that it is common to put the topic under Education.  This doesn't seem particularly unreasonable to me.  Are you suggesting we put it under Culture?  Frankly, I don't think that is unreasonable either. However, there is something to be said for consistency.  If Education is where it is throughout Wikipedia, wouldn't it be appropriate for this article to do the same, considering it is one of a couple of reasonable spots for it?  The  project link you cite seems like a better spot to bring up this big-picture issue.  As a friendly suggestion, don't post something on here that is so defensive and, to be honest, a bit confrontational.  You probably have some people that would agree with your position, but the approach may make others defensive.  --anietor (talk) 13:43, 5 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The edit making the change is an admin. He will have his way, I suppose. The issue on the WP:CITIES project page is "undecided" ("officially", if you will), so it has been discussed. I have already left a message under the project page where it had been discussed (and left ambiguous at the time). It would be nice if libraries were educational, I suppose, but books that are widely used in education wind up in the "sale" bin at libraries! I have spent many hours in libraries, educational for me perhaps. Others are answering email, borrowing romance novels, etc. Educational? I don't think so! Student7 (talk) 12:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


 * As I pointed out at the WP:CITIES discussion page, the issue ought to be decided by outside authority, not opinion. And the outside authority in this case is that libraries are not funded or administered as "education". I don't know of a single city where the libraries are run by the school board. They are part of city or county services. That would argue strongly against listing them under "education".--MelanieN (talk) 02:03, 9 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN

Demographics by age
The statistics used to be listed in standard fashion, breaking age into brackets: under 18, 18-24, 25-44, 45-64, and 65 and over. But somebody changed the brackets, twice now, so they overlap each other: 18-25, 25-45, 45-65. This makes no sense. If you have a bracket for 18-25 and also one for 25-45, where do you put the person who is 25? In both?

Since this has become a bit of an editing war it should be settled by looking at the original source. However the only source cited in the "demographics" paragraph is a bad link. So in effect the entire paragraph should be marked.

--MelanieN (talk) 14:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN
 * I'm not even sure where some of those numbers come from, because those aren't the official US Census Age Demographics: . They look like the Nielsen demographics, but some of them clearly don't come from the census (which gives a different median age than we have listed). --Smashvilletalk 16:42, 10 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You are right that this is not the way the U.S. Census breaks down age. The Census breaks down by 5-year groups, for example 40-44, 45-49, 50-54, 55-59, etc. One thing the Census does NOT do is the nonsensical proposal to include the same age in two different brackets. (Could it be that the 40-45 people don't understand that the numbers are INCLUSIVE? In other words that "40-44" means everyone aged 40, 41, 42, 43, or 44?)
 * Bottom line, there is no source given for this information, so no way to settle the argument. I am tempted to just delete it until somebody come up with valid information. Maybe instead I'll look for some real numbers and post them with their source. --MelanieN (talk) 02:01, 11 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN


 * I "was bold" and deleted the unsourced information. The only reason for the silly arguments about age brackets was that there was no source to consult, so people were just going by their own opinion. Not encyclopedic, not Wikipedian, and no longer in the article. I replaced the unsourced information with age demographics that I could substantiate. I also replaced the bad Census link with a good link. --MelanieN (talk) 02:38, 11 September 2009 (UTC)MelanieN

Metro statistics
Metro population is in the info box. I don't know why, but it is. I suppose the same figure is there for San Marcos and Carlsbad too - a bit preposterous, wouldn't you think? (They are in the same metro).

This article is supposed to be about the city. There are two separate articles, which contributors are welcome to edit, concerning the metro areas, San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA, which is identical to the county itself, San Diego County, California. And also San Diego – Tijuana metropolitan area. There seems to be a "mission creep" by which statistics from the larger creep into the smaller, apparently, to the naive reader, making the smaller look like the larger, which it shouldn't. Because that would be lying, folks. Lying! Let the city be the city and leave stuff outside the city limits in the articles which are constructed for them. We don't need to merge all city articles into all nearby city articles! Student7 (talk) 14:26, 28 November 2009 (UTC)


 * It is not helpful to link the metro area in parts. Okay to link those cities separately when mentioned later. (This is about as helpful as linking George by itself and Bush by itself!) Student7 (talk) 01:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Student7, though may I reccomend a new article "San Diego Metropolitan area", which would be about the San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA. That way it would be seperate and it would be less confusing. House1090 (talk) 01:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)


 * A good idea! Student7 (talk) 01:24, 11 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I dont know much about the SD metropolitan area, so I would need your help to expand it and make it usefull, are you willing to help and do some research with me? House1090 (talk) 01:44, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I will be out of the country for a week. I have asked a respected editor to take a look. She knows a lot about the area. If you don't hear from her, remind me. Student7 (talk) 19:50, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure, no problem, I will probably start it on my sandbox. House1090 (talk) 23:19, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the invite, Student7, and I'll help if needed, but I'm not sure I really see the point of this article. Won't it simply duplicate the San Diego County or San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA articles? --MelanieN (talk) 04:22, 13 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN


 * Not really, San Diego is the only major-city with out an MSA article. It can be about atrractions, the cities impact on the metro its self, as well as other cities in the metro like Oceanside and many more, I think we can make it work. House1090 (talk) 04:32, 13 December 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, well, I live in San Diego and have created or expanded several articles about the area (for example Point Loma, San Diego, California and Midway, San Diego, California). So if you want help let me know. I gather one of your main goals is to put the metro statistics here - rather than in the San Diego article where they don't belong. Are you thinking of creating a new article called San Diego Metropolitan Area, to which the MSA link would redirect (instead of to San Diego County as it does now)? Or an article called by the name of the MSA, to which San Diego Metropolitan Area would redirect? --MelanieN (talk) 15:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN


 * An article called San Diego Metropolitan Area, which will be about the MSA rather than having it linked to SD County. House1090 (talk) 05:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I will be starting an article named "Greater San Diego Area". I hope this doesnt conflict with the SD Metro area. I lived there for 15 years so i will definitely be able to help. However i would say that even though the government considers the San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA all of SD county locals will say it only refers to the cities of San Diego, Carlsbad, & San Marcos as well as all those in between on the coast. SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:35, 9 January 2010 (UTC)
 * FYI, "Greater San Diego" currently redirects to San Diego-Tijuana metropolitan area. --MelanieN (talk) 02:15, 10 January 2010 (UTC)MelanieN


 * I already started the article. I will post it here. House1090 (talk) 03:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am very well aware of that. However outside of wiki it is used to refer to its numerous suburbs and such.SoCal L.A. (talk) 03:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Should be a simple matter to change that redirect page when you are done - so that it redirects to the new article instead. Or even to hijack it, i.e., change it from a redirect page to your new article. --MelanieN (talk) 15:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)MelanieN


 * Here is he article, I am donating my sandbox so that we can make there before posting it officialy for the public. House1090 (talk) 03:40, 10 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look later when I have a little more time. --MelanieN (talk) 15:27, 10 January 2010 (UTC)MelanieN


 * It's at sandbox]. I suggest calling it a stub and moving it now. Other editors can update it there. Redirecting to a metro that includes a foreign city (Tijuana) is not really acceptable for US census-related purposes. Student7 (talk) 13:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Well it will just have to wait. It will be easier for the article to get deleted that way. Mabey you guys might want to contribute and not leave it all to me, who does not know much about SD. Basiclly I would nominate an article for deletion if it was how the SD metro one is. There really is no rush. 22:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Let's not create the public page before it is ready. In fact, let's aim to have it in good enough shape to nominate it for a "Did you know...?" item - which can only be done during the first week of a new article.
 * And as far as the rest of us adding content, I really don't know where you want to go with the article. Maybe you could put in some headings for us to work under? --MelanieN (talk) 00:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)MelanieN
 * Okay well, I will get it done asap. I would like to follow the guide of the Inland Empire article or the Greater LA one. I think that would shape up the article. House1090 (talk) 02:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I have set up a basic outline you guys can check it out and add information, also we should remove the IE cities and replace them with major SD cities (200K +) of population. House1090 (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * {| width="75%" align="center" class="notice noprint" style="background: none; border: 1px solid #aaa; padding: 0.5em; margin: 0.5em auto;"


 * valign="top" style="padding: 0.1em" | [[Image:Yes check.svg|50 px]]
 * style="padding: 0.1em" |
 * style="padding: 0.1em" |

Our request to form the San Diego Metropolitan Area has been granted and done for the following reason(s): Because San Diego Metro (MSA) is a large and major metropolitan area, and cannot be redirected to the county. Any quesions feel free to ask me. House1090 (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * }


 * Thanks! Looks good! Student7 (talk) 14:11, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Montage
Perhaps the image needs to be changed. Hotel del is in the city of Coronado, California and not in San Diego proper, but in San Diego County. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:06, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, it should be removed. Maybe it could be replaced by a picture of the Point Loma Lighthouse. --MelanieN (talk) 04:24, 13 December 2009 (UTC)MelanieN

Metro population
I deleted the San Diego Metro population from the infobox, but SoCal L.A. put it back. I don't really care one way or the other, but I thought the whole impetus for creating a San Diego Metro article was because of comments here to the effect that the San Diego Metro statistics belong somewhere else - not in the San Diego city article. See discussion above. What do the rest of you think? --MelanieN (talk) 05:00, 18 January 2010 (UTC)MelanieN


 * May have to tolerate it in the infobox, I don't know. But this spells the end of metro statistics in the text, I think. Student7 (talk) 14:21, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that its fine as it is now, showing only the SD metro population. House1090 (talk) 19:22, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I put it back since most major cities have that number in there. LA and Chicago included. SoCal L.A. (talk) 22:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Bulleting the Cities & Neighborhoods list?
I propose that we bullet the list so it is easier to view and read. Others opinions? SoCal L.A. (talk) 01:26, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * That could be a hundred bullets. I think it would be unwieldy. JMO. --MelanieN (talk) 02:22, 30 January 2010 (UTC)MelanieN
 * Perhaps but if you used the it wouldn't be that bad. I wouldnt mind bulleting all of them. I am just wondering if anyway is against it. SoCal L.A. (talk) 03:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I think a list like that would overwhelm the article. It may be more appropriate as a standalone list.  I'm not sure of the value a long list like that gives to this article even in its current format.  See also Embedded list for additional guidance.  Alanraywiki (talk) 05:42, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand. It was just a suggestion. So the consensus is no list then. SoCal L.A. (talk) 08:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

A curse on teams
There is a footnoted, terse mention of a belief in a "curse" on SD teams. While this is well-done, I wonder about its inclusion. Urban myths abound. Every city that doesn't have a "fair share" of championships claims a "curse." Which is more of a joke than a real "belief" per se. No one ever seems to claim that the Yankees/NYC are conversely are "blessed!" Not exactly neutral reporting here! :) Student7 (talk) 19:19, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protection
I see that Xeno has added "semi-protection" to this page. What does that mean exactly? I had tried adding a comment at the beginning of the article to warn off the vandals, but Xeno (out of much longer experience than mine) said that approach is ineffective.

It's in response to a couple of recent edits on the tired old "whale's vagina" theme, including a particularly blatant one where they blanked the whole page and inserted those two words. (I didn't even see that one, it was auto-reverted by a bot in less than a minute.) The two recent ones - the one I reverted and the bot-reverted one - were by different IP addresses; any way to find out if they were really the same person? The timing is suggestive. --MelanieN (talk) 16:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Semi-protection simply means that anon IPs and non-autoconfirmed users can't edit the page. No point in trying to determine if the same person is using different IPs...result will be same regardless (if IPs continue to vandalize, block). OhNo itsJamie Talk 16:44, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Perhaps an indefinite block since this article seems to be pretty stable? SoCal L.A. (talk) 23:37, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * At least this means we can relax for three months! --MelanieN (talk) 05:22, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * For those of us who are annoyed, once again I grind my axe: a person who can program (is allowed to program?) a bot could check for "certain" words and revert them for this article only, as agreed in consensus by the editors. That is the best and maybe the only way. Another way (which won't be accepted) is to allow one of the common permanent bots to revert entries with "those" words in them. Another article with legitimate need for those words could use a different sequence.


 * I can't even get a permanent semi-protect on a bunch of middle schools I am watching. To me, that would be obvious. But if not there, than most likely not here either. Sorry. (Real sorry!) Student7 (talk) 19:17, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * BTW - although this page remains safe, thanks to the protection, we are now having to delete the same old nonsense from the "talk" page and the "San Diego County" page! --MelanieN (talk) 02:21, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, and thanks. I think we can justify stopping unregistered users from editing the very mature SD article itself. A bit harder to justify on the talk page where newbies should be able to (ugh) run free, as it were. Unfortunately. And yes, rv is still in order. Student7 (talk) 14:35, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

So on the very day the semi-protection expired, the anonymous users were back with their same old tired "joke". I guess we all have to be on the alert again. --MelanieN (talk) 05:11, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Infrastructure
I'm not really up to this myself, but we need to consider inserting an "Infrastructure" subtopic. This would include the current "Transportation," but also include electricity, water, cable, piped gas delivery, that sort of thing. Student7 (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Add San Diego Magazine under San Diego Media
San Diego's oldest and largest circulation magazine, San Diego Magazine, has been publishing on a monthly frequency since 1948. San Diego Magazine's website is www.sandiegomagazine.com. (SDMagazine (talk) 17:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC))


 * This would need an independent, reliable source.  Chzz  ►  18:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Really would need an article to indicate notability IMO. Student7 (talk) 18:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Protection
I had suggested that this page might be suitable for the new "pending changes protection" system, where some recent changes need to be reviewed and approved before they become part of the article. Apparently the administrator, after looking over the history here, decided on semi-protection instead. It's true this page has been pretty much of a vandal magnet recently. So once again we who watch this article can relax for a while - six months in fact. 0;-D --MelanieN (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't actually have a pending change protection button yet! There was some movie in the 90's where the meme was that everything they needed wasn't going to be delivered until Tuesday... well, same thing here.  We've got a user group to get ready for flagged revisions, but nothing else to go with that until Tuesday. Courcelles (talk) 18:39, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Redirects from "A Whales Vagina"
Does anyone know why this is redirected from that page? Is this a known nickname for the city? It seems to me that if the "A Whales Vagina" redirect is genuine it should be at least mentioned in the article. Otherwise the redirect should probably be deleted.
 * Thanks for the heads-up. It's vandalism. I have requested a speedy-deletion of the page. --MelanieN (talk) 15:28, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, it's gone. --MelanieN (talk) 16:17, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Communities and neighborhoods
There are around one hundred named areas within the city of San Diego.

The image is not viewes from Shelter Island, it is OF Shelter island.

should be changed to,"Panorama of San Diego as viewed from Coronado

72.199.219.29 (talk) 18:51, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Dukane, 15 October 2010
Change the link for the American Basketball association to "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Basketball_Association_(2000%E2%80%93present)" and the location that the San Diego Surf plays to the "HourGlass Arena at Miramar College"

Dukane (talk) 17:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks. -Atmoz (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)