Talk:Santorini

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Speculation on an Exodus connection
I don't have a copy, but you do get discussion of the eruption and its possible links to the Exodus story in Ian Wilson's 1985 book "The Exodus Enigma".91.111.29.190 (talk) 22:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

General
--- Years back I came across some poems from Egypt contemporary to Thera errupthion. They spoke of dust falling cows and crops dieing, mothers eating dead babies. Anyone have anything on this? Wblakesx 19:58, 12 April 2007 (UTC)Wblakesx

Removed some of the pictures because they were low-res, because they were joined with each other as one image and replaced them with high resolution images. I also added a picture with Linear A that I had taken in the museum of Fira in Santorini as a sample from the Minoic period. This image is also used in the Linear A article. Also, I would like to strongly encourage contributors not to "watermark" their images with their username. The beauty of Wikipedia is "selfless contribution". Portum 01:13, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Alas, the Landsat photo has been replaced by a new (very nice, but different) Image:Santorini.jpg  retaining its former caption. At the image page, the old image is retrievable. Can someone fix this? I'm hopeless. --Wetman 01:21, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

--- I added a picture of thira but i hope the resample of the big one is still viewable, if this one is not good i have bunch of them that you can choose on http://www.chmouel.com/geeklog/gallery/gallery_individual.php/greece/ --Chmouel Boudjnah

---

This portion removed from this article:

Geologists have no exact absolute dates for the explosion. Their carbon-14 or radiocarbon method offers 5513, 5568, 5589, 5700, 5730, or 5770 years for the half life of the carbon-14 isotope. (Prof. Norman Hammond of Rutgers University claimed in his Ancient Mayan Civilization, 1982:114) that the radiocarbon dates require radical changes.)

I believe this kind of material belongs in an article on radioactive dating, not here. Dwmyers 20:40, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I removed this text:
 * Archaeological evidence indicates that the (then) dome-shaped island was inhabited by the Minoans prior to 3200 BC when the Cretans invaded (but the Minoans were the Cretans of the time of the eruption); at this time it was known as Stroggili or Strongyle (meaning 'round'). A pre-Greek (linguistically) Minoan culture was followed by a "Mycenaean" Greek-speaking culture. Injecting separate "Cretans" into the chronology is inaccurate and confusing. The name Strongyle: is it Greek? It can't refer to pre-explosion Thera. Wetman 08:30, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thera definitively etymologized as:  literally "Fear" (But therapeutic?) I shifted this new note here for discussion. Is not Thera/Thira actually non-Greek? Wetman 20:51, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

The island was not dome shaped for thousands of years before the Minoan eruption. My reference is Fire in the Sea: The Santorini Volcano: Natural History and the Legend of Atlantis, Walter L. Friedrich, translated by Alexander R. McBirney, Cambridge University Press 1999. Friedrich is a professor of geology at a Danish university, and indeed much of the book is about the geology. Strongyle is Greek for "round", and was apparently used in the 19th Century and although the book says that the ancient Greeks called it Calliste (="most beautiful"), it suggests that Strongyle may have been passed down from ancient times (although IHMO he doesn't present good evidence of this).--Jll 16:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What the Minoans called it is speculation as no one has decoded their written language - see the Wikipedia article and the web generally on Linear A. The book also says that the earliest mention of the name Thera is in verse 10 of the fourth Pythian Ode by a Greek called Pindar (522-441 BC) talking about an island that the Argonauts discover, and that the same ode mentions Calliste in verse 258.--Jll 16:19, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thera and the Exodus?
The following text is a little bit chariot-of-the-gods: There have been suggestions that the eruption of Thera coincides with the Exodus of the Hebrew people from Egypt, possibly affecting the tides of the Red Sea to allow for their crossing. There have not been such suggestions from geologists, I'd be willing to bet. Would it be a great pity if this text disappeared? Any supporters of the Thera-parted-the-Red-Sea suggestions? --Wetman 10:02, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I did hear this theory from another source (probably Discovery Channel or something like that). There's also a theory that says the erruption might have caused the "pillar of cloud by day" and the "pillar of fire by night" the Bible talks about (see Exodus 13).

Current version of this is still unsourced ("some") and not to the standards of the rest of this artticle: ''Some have speculated that the Santorini eruption and resulting tsunami resulted in the ten plagues of the Hebrew Exodus, with the Theran tsunami possibly affecting the Red Sea to allow for the Hebrews' crossing. A significant time span is required between the ash-fall and the tsunami to correspond to events in the Exodus account. This would indicate a delay between the eruption and the collapse of the volcano that would be nearly impossible to document, and which has no currently known geological precedent." --Wetman 05:48, 20 August 2005 (UTC)


 * This theory has been advanced by A.G. Galanopoulos (as seen in Mavor's Voyage to Atlantis) and again stated in Charles Pellegrino's Unearthing Atlantis. I have no idea who first came up with the idea (meaning if someone credible thought of it before Galanopoulos.  It's obvious that Pellegrino's book came later).  -- Pryaltonian 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * In regards to the Biblical connection between Thera and the Exodus, there is a very informative documentary by Jewish Canadian filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici called "The Exodus Decoded" which aired on the Discovery Channel. The film was produced by James Cameron and highlights the effects the Thera eruption could have caused on Ancient Egypt using scientific and archeological evidence.  The film maker uses similar evidence to date the Exodus and the Thera eruption to 1500 B.C.E. As far as the parting of the Red Sea goes, the actual Hebrew translation is to the "Reed Sea", a much smaller salt/sweet water lake at the edge of the Nile Delta.  The documentary also links a proposed "earthquake storm," which may have resulted from the Thera eruption, to the Biblical 'ten plagues'.    Dryley 11:32, 29 August 2006

I tried to be as neutral as I could and add the new archeological evidence surrounding Exodus/Santorini connection. However, given the contention around the evidence, I think it was better to reference the documentary and its "proposals" rather than present them as facts like the documentary did. If anyone has a problem with the changes, please make edits and do not blank it completely. Thank you.--Cryogenesis 15:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

A few additional comments: Connecting Thera eruption with Exodus in the detailed way proposed does sound fantastical. If we disconnect the Bible from the discussions we have a few points of interest that could connect the Thera eruption with Egypt.
 * Mt.St.Helens caused $1 billion damage in 1980. Greek GDP in 1980 was $50 billion. Thera was approximately 120 times larger, so we might easily imagine the economic effect on trade-based economies of Eastern Aegean as likely to be totally catastrophic, with no World Bank to step in either. Imagine a recession 10+ times worse than recent world recession, as well as literally complete destruction of trading infrastructure, so no end in sight either.
 * Mt.St.Helens eruption was preceded by significant earthquake activity and took many days to erupt. It seems likely that evacuation of many people was possible.
 * The Hyksos arrived in Egypt almost exactly at the same time the Thera/Minoan civilisation was destroyed.
 * The location of their invasion is exactly where we'd expect a horde of starving, displaced migrants from Thera to go to
 * The first Hyksos king's name was Sakir-Har, which could be translated as "Merchant/Richman/Paymaster from the mountain" - the mountain could easily be Thera

We may not be able to link Hyksos directly to the people of Thera, though it seems clear that the widespread disruption at that time would cause a huge economic collapse of trading-based nations and cause survivors to migrate to food-surplus-producing regions or die. Whether that was a literal armed invasion or just simply hundreds of starving boat people is difficult to say. Too many people not enough resources causes war. War means Warlords would certainly emerge from such disruption.

Maybe the migrants were from Thera, maybe not. But it seems likely that *all* close members of the trading economy of which Thera was a part would be effected, those peoples also had the means to travel by sea and to go to places where food was even remotely possible. Many displaced people of similar but different races/languages, coupled with destroyed economies makes for confused histories and dark ages.

Egyptians would clearly seek to remove such invaders as soon as possible afterwards, causing further migrations. One of those is likely to be the source of the Exodus story.

The aftermath of the Thera eruption seems likely to have been many years of strange weather events and associated famines. The likelihood of extended eruption events over many years is reasonable, at least. We don't really need literal descriptions of Biblical events, but it doesn't seem impossible. 88.110.191.21 (talk) 10:55, 3 June 2010 (UTC)Simon

Added the panoramic pic at the top, the detailed map and also removed a picture of a 'cat in santorini' and replaced it with a sunset picture of the island. A picture of a cat is not relevant to the topic of santorini. --Andruzzo

Modified the image which erroneously said it was the streets of Fira when it is actually the town of Oia --Andruzzo

Switched around the two panoramic pics. The pic of the ISLAND from the ferry is a better picture of the actual ISLAND, instead of a view outwards, which is what the second panoramic pic is. It's a nice picture that should be later on with other scenic shots.

Maps and "infringement"
Note at User talk:RadRafe: You recently removed maps "until the infringement issue is resolved". Since there is no mention of such an issue at the Talk:Santorini page, would you post a sentence or so with a hyperlink to discussion of infringement? Thank you. (Copy to Talk:Santorini) --Wetman 8 July 2005 16:10 (UTC)

VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index)
The VEI has been claimed by F. McCoy to be as high as 7. McCoy's claims, however, have not been published in the peer-reviewed literature. This has been discussed recently by many people on e-mail, where it has been pointed out that Keenan (reference cited in the article) presented evidence that the VEI has previously been overestimated (because it included the ash from Crete--this is also discussed in the article). Daphne A 05:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

On the program Lost Cities on the History Channel, one commentator (I forget his name or field of expertise) said that the Thera eruption was 10 times greater than Krakatoa in 1883. Krakatoa is listed as a VEI 6 (VEI). A statement was also made in this program indicating the belief that Thera was the largest eruption in recorded history, presumably this would mean surpassing Tambora but not prehistoric supereruptions. I believe this new position was based on the amount of ejected material now on the sea bed around Santorini. --Tokalon73 02:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)


 * VEI is defined logarithmically: a VEI of 7 is ten times bigger than a VEI of 6. Thus the "10 times greater than Krakatoa" claim implies a VEI of 7.  This is McCoy's claim again.  McCoy keeps making this claim to reporters, but he has yet to get anything published in the peer-reviewed literature.  As for surpassing Tambora, there is no way; Tambora's magma crater is huge!  If someone said that, they were unlikley to know what they were talking about.  &mdash;Daphne A 19:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I read many scientific papers about volcanism and Santorini to prepare my own papers. Most if not all consider that Santorini eruption of 1650 BC was a VEI 6 not a VEI 7. It was equivalent to 600 MT of TNT or 1.7 time the explosion of St.Helens in 1980, and was equivalent to 30 times the explosion of Tunguska in 1908 or 27000 to 40000 times the bomb of Hiroshima. The amount of ejecta was estimated between 40-60 km3 and to 61 km3 in 2006 by researchers from Un.Rhodes Island. -- luxorion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:7E8:C0ED:AD01:AD3F:EC24:831C:F4E7 (talk) 18:24, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

1645 BC?
Looking through past edits, it seems clear that whenever someone edits the page to say that the 1645 BC date is "under debate," someone always changes it to "proven incorrect." What is the general consensus? Hammer seems adamant that 1645 BC is correct but Manning on his site accepts the debunking of 1645 BC. I still don't fully understand why Keenan considers aeolian differentiation a non-issue in differences between the Greenland ash and Theran ash; I'd be grateful to have someone explain this to me. Also, does anyone know where in time are the other ash layers in the ice caps that could be Thera candidates? --Pryaltonian 07:04, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Keenan [2003] treats aeolian differentian in his paragraphs 32-34: Regarding aeolian differentiation, this would not seem to affect trace constituent abundances per se, and there is no obvious mechanism by which it would substantially affect major constituent abundances, especially for glass. ... Indeed, using the same reasoning [as Hammer], the Greenlandic tephra could be argued to match any (non-Arctic) eruption.


 * Also, N.J.G. Pearce et al. [Geochemistry Geophysics Geosystems, 2004] demonstrate that the ash from Greenland is much more similar to Aniakchak than to Thera. (Pearce et al. actually claim that the ash is from Aniakchak, but Keenan has a piece on his web site (www.informath.org/G^304aS.pdf) showing how Pearce et al. made errors in their statistics.)
 * Daphne A 11:21, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

split?
the part on the eruption needs its own article, Thera eruption, otherwise it is drowning out the discussion of what is after all an inhabited island with lots of history besides the eruption. dab (&#5839;) 17:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposed
I wanted to add info about the Biblical stories connection under the "eruption" section then noticed the link to the separate eruption article. It seems to me everythign after the brief intro paragraph under eruption is duplicating the second article. WOuldn't it be more concise to cover all eruption details in the eruption article, if there is going to be such a split? --Tokalon73 16:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The eruption article is the main article for the eruption. The Santorini article contains a short section that summarizes the eruption article.  So there shouldn't be a merger; having things partially duplicated like this is common.  Info about the biblical stories should be more appropriate for the eruption article.  &mdash;Daphne A 22:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd second that. The subsection here should provide a concise summary of information at Thera eruption that directly relates to Santorini. --Wetman 22:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Akrotiri -- Atlantis Connection
Recent excavations as detailed on a History Channel Lost Cities episode indicate this Santorini (Thera) as a major center of the Minoan civilization. Evidence also strongly points towards Akrotiri as the inspiration of Plato's Atlantis due to similarities of the Minoan city to his description (circular layout of island, ring of water around inner island in caldera, hot and cold running water, advanced architecture, etcetera. However, there is no mention of this island on the Minoan article and the Atlantis article needs to be updated.  I therefore suggest a larger inclusion of the newer Akrotiri information on the Minoan and Atlantis articles by someone qualified and willing to do the research. -Mackson 2:05, 04 September 2006

I was able to obtain a copy of the History Channel show "Lost Worlds: Atlantis" that delves into Atlantis specifically (the other Santorini documentary was about the Exodus), and shows the similarities between Plato's description of Atlantis and the excavations at Santorini. Again, it is presented by archeoligists and other scientists. Here are some facts and conclusions from the documentary:
 * Sir Arthur Evans arrives on Crete in 1900 and began digging at a hilltop settlement called Knossos. The Minoans, as Evans labeled them, might be the Atlanteans mentioned by Plato.
 * Minoans had an engineering excellence that would not be seen again for centuries. Evans unearthed a magnificent stone throne, which was at the heart of a 4,000 year old palace complex as big as four football fields. This palace had four floors, ten times as many rooms (1,300+) as the White House in Washington DC., and connected by miles of passageways. During the time of the Minoans, on the mainland, was architecture of 3 or 4 roomed mud/brick structures at best. There was no grand architecture elsewhere at that time period.
 * The advanced Minoan plumbing system (hot and cold running water, and drainage/waste disposal) predates the Greek/Roman empire's plumbing system by over 1,000 years. This matches Plato's description of a palace where water was plentifal and "collected from the surrounding hills its supply was plentiful".
 * Plato describes the palace of Atlantis as "an acropolis sitting atop a great hill." This matches the palace at Knossus. The entire hilltop was flattened, and terraces were carved so the palace could be built on multiple levels.
 * The large foundation blocks of the palace walls were constructed of crystalline stone called gypsum, quarried locally and cut into blocks with bronze saws. In the Atlantis myth, the external walls of the palace were said to "shine like silver" - which is how a gypsum wall would have appeared as it glistened in the sun.
 * The palace engineers were masters at controlling the path of air and light through the depths of the palace quarters. They devised systems that appear advanced even today. Internal rooms were devided using "peer and door partitioning", controlling the flow of air. A huge, four-story spiraling staircase was at the heart of the complex, forming a vast "light well" that reflected light into every room of the palace.
 * Since violent quakes were common in the area, the palace engineers devised anti-seismic techniques to butress the walls with wooden frames.
 * Minoan civilization disappeared suddenly, at the height of its wealth and power.
 * Around 1500 BC, the island of Crete was hit by a series of massive Tsunami's (at least ten) that came from the direction of the island of Thera (now called Santorini, about 100 miles from Crete).
 * Santorini is the site of massive caldera. Archologists discovered there used to be an island at the center of it. It was swallowed up by a terrible volcanic eruption. Evidence has proved this to be a massive mega-volcano eruption, one of the biggest in recorded history.
 * Plato described quarries on the island of Atlantis where rocks of white, black, and red were extracted from the hills and used to contruct a great island city. The description matches the rocks found in Santorini.
 * The island-city was described as being laid out in a series of concentric circles of land and water. Each one connected to the ocean by an immense canal 100 feet deep. Docks for a huge number of ships, and a causeway for unloading cargo of said ships, was also described.
 * The entire island of Santorini is covered by volcanic deposits that fell during a single volcanic eruption. This layer of pumice and debris is over 100 feet deep. Underneath it, archeologists uncovered homes.
 * In 1966 at Akroteri, archeologist James Maber Jr. uncovered an ancient city. The town remained substantially intact, like Pompeii, covered as it was in ash.
 * At Akroteri, there are 2 and 3 multi-story buildings. It had the earliest form of town planning (structured assembly of interconecting roads and paths) ever discovered. Again, with fresh hot/cold running water and toilets in each house, leading out to a sewer system. Many such sites have now been unearthed.
 * A fresco at Akroteri was unearthed that reveals what the island landscape looked like 3,500 years ago. It shows a huge city on the central island of the caldera, as theorized by scientists.
 * The final clue is Plato's reference to Egypt as the source of the Atlantis myth, via Solon. It is speculated survivors of the Minoan volcanic disaster asked Egypt for help, as it was the only other civilization near their technology level. Also, it has been uncovered that the Egyptions called Atlantis "Kepchu", their name for the people of Crete.
 * The scientists Dr. J. Alexander MacGuuvry (archeologist), Dr. Colin F. MacDonald (archeologist), Professor Floyd McCoy (vulcanologist), professor Clairy Palyvou (architect), and Dr. Garassimos Papadopoulos (seismologist) are featured prominently in the documentary.

--Cryogenesis 19:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I tried to summon the above rough information into a set of coherent paragraphs, but feel free to clean it up if its not as coherent as we would like. I also cited scientific sources in the Sources section. This work is legitimate science, NOT like those crazy Atlantis connections about aliens, superhuman races, and silly theories. The Atlantis myth as told by Solon to Plato, from its Egyptian source, is turning out to be a re-told and re-worked myth that described a real place and event.--Cryogenesis 16:57, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I would not trust a History Channel show. They are the same company as the Discovery Channel which tried to link Atlantis to the Yamaguni Monument, which is ridiculous since Plato never heard of Japan and the Yamaguni was only discovered in the 1980s.  Same for the Pellegrino book.  Pellegrino needs to offer evidence that Plato in the 400s BCE had detailed information about the Minoans of the 1400s BCE other than the myths about Minos, Daedalus, the Minotaur, Theseus, Ariadne and so on, or about Thera of the same period.  Everything associated with Atlantis and Thera or the Minoans should be phrased more like so-and-so has suggested unless it's a peer-reviewed archaeological work.

4.249.63.240 (talk) 21:54, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Linkspam
The person who keeps putting those links on is coming from various anonymous addresses, so you couldn't block them directly. I wonder, though--is it possible to put a block on a url so links no longer work to it from WP? I dunno.

It's worth checking the contributions list of the anonymous spammer--I've removed linkspam from another article as a result. Nareek 12:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

P.S. It might be worth having the article semi-protected so that anonymous editors can't edit. Nareek 12:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think semi-protection is premature, nor is it yet appropriate (since it will block off some good contributors to the article). I've requested, on meta, that go2santorini.com be entirely blacklisted, so that it cannot be added at all across Wikipedia.  We'll see if folks there take that up.  --Nlu (talk) 15:27, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't sure you could do that--that would definitely be a better option. Nareek 16:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Disputed paragraph
User:Hasbro has inserted this in the section entitled "Greek, Byzantine and Ottoman Santorini".

"The History Channel has a feature called 'Exodus Decoded', which says that Santorini provides insights to the Book of Exodus. It explains how the Ten Plagues of Egypt were actually caused by the Earthquake and consequential eruption of Santorini's Volcano."

It's hard for me to see how it has any bearing whatsoever on that section. It might be vaguely appropriate in the previous section, which actually talks about the eruption, and which actually mentions (in the previous sentence, in case Hasbro didn't notice) the Exodus connection. The Ten Plagues thing isn't mentioned, and might perhaps deserve a mention there if a verifiable reliable source could be cited -- note that "I saw it on a TV show" doesn't fit the bill.

Anyone else have any thoughts? Hasbro insists it remain. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 21:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

If you want to move it to the other section, be my guest. Hasbro 21:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Most of it's already in the other section. We don't have any verifiable reliable sources for the "Ten Plagues" thing. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 22:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not like we are making the claim--The History Channel is. Hasbro 10:02, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The way it's written, it endorses the claim. And what does it have to do with the subtopic that it's placed under? Nareek 12:23, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I was able to obtain a copy of the History Channel show in question. The evidence was very convincing, as presented by archeoligists and other scientists. See my other references in the previous section on Atlantis.


 * That stuff might be real useful for Atlantis, but there are of course serious competing theories (which is why the primary mention of the Santorini connection needs to be there, not here.) A brief mention of it here should suffice -- something like "Santorini has been posited to be the location of Atlantis." Side question to onlookers -- how do we WP:CITE things like that TV show? A--jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 20:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * The competing theories do not have any real archeological evidence. With Santorini, all the ducks are lining up in a row. The "smoking gun", as it were, is the Egyptian connection. The Egyptians are the original source of the Atlantis myth. The name "Atlantis" was made up by the Greeks. The Egyptian name for Atlantis was "Kepchu," which is ALSO what the Egyptians called the people of Crete. You can't get much more verification than that, even if there was no other evidence -- which there is now aplenty.--Cryogenesis 15:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Shrug. I don't really care; I was only looking at the one section I was commenting on in the first place, which has nothing to do with Atlantis. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 16:05, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Understood. I am interested in both topics and was commenting on both. I do not have all the facts and references for the Exodus connection from the History Channel archeological series, but if and when I do, I will break it down and reference it here. Then, perhaps, we can add something about it that is more neutral in tone, and backed up by facts and not speculation.--Cryogenesis 17:00, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I culled this text from the History Channel site: "After six years of unprecedented research, host Simcha Jacobovici and a team of renowned archeologists, Egyptologists, geologists, and theologians shed revelatory new light on the Exodus and the era's ruling Egyptian Dynasty. Their new theory pushes events hundreds of years earlier than previously thought, allowing age-old stories to sparkle with new perspectives and startling historical import. Using elaborate, state-of-the-art CGI, "The Exodus Decoded" offers a stunning virtual account of stories like the birth of Moses, the ten plagues, and the parting of the Red Sea, revealing once and for all the difference between acts of Nature and the hand of God. Executive Produced by James Cameron (who appears on camera) and Simcha Jacobovici (who also hosts), the viewer follows Jacobovici to Egypt, Greece and Israel, on an investigative archaeological journey that pieces together a puzzle of tantalizing clues."
 * http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=76731
 * This is also important: http://TheExodusDecoded.com

I tried to be as neutral as I could and add the new archeological evidence surrounding Exodus/Santorini connection. However, given the contention around the "evidence", I think it was better to reference the documentary and its "proposals" rather than present them as facts like the documentary did. If anyone has a problem with the changes, please make edits and do not blank it completely. Thank you.--Cryogenesis 15:35, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Connections between Minoan Advances and Santorini

 * Is the connection of Sir Arthur's expedition on Crete relevent for this article on Santorini? I think that a brief mention of Minoan culture in it's connections to what we know of the ancient history of Santorini is important, but the specifics of an expedition on a nearby island and the conjectors made from that should be removed. 69.163.33.37 15:49, 23 October 2006 (UTC) Matt

Santorini from the air photo
"Clockwise from the center"? Where do you look after the center? 12 o'clock? 1 o'clock? I'm not familiar with the islands enough to know. Also, what are we supposed to be looking at? Cities? Islands? --Eddylyons 21:21, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree this image could use some inline captions and arrows or somesuch. -- Beland 06:31, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have tried to clarify the caption, hopefully it should be clearer now Fitzgabbro (talk) 23:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

many eruptions
this page focuses too much on the single big eruption of 1500 bc and of claims concerning atlantis. i visited this island a couple of years ago and i remember a map of the shape of the island over the years, which showed that the island has been repeatedly reshaped by major eruptions every 200 years or so. Benwing 08:59, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * You may have a point concerning Atlantis, but there's no comparison between the many minor eruptions that built up the island and the single major one that destroyed it. The minor eruptions make it like every other volcano on the planet; the major one makes it unique, at least as far as human history goes.  The article should certainly mention that Santorini had been created through a long series of eruptions and continues to erupt to the present day, but the point of this article is and should be the single eruption that created a miles-wide crater. Nareek 12:50, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Query on population figure
I don't know the source of the stated population figure, but I don't think it's very meaningful without qualification. Many of the Greek islands, including Santorini, are virtually deserted in winter, but crowded with tourists and temporary workers in the tourism sector during the summer. Which state does this figure represent? Rodparkes 09:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Need for correction
The "Ancient volcanic eruption" section contins this text: "New archaeological discoveries by a team of international scientists in 2006 have revealed that the Santorini event [...] expelled 61 cubic kilometres of magma and rock into Earth's atmosphere compared to previous estimates of only 39 cubic kilometres in 1991." Further down, the "Thera hypotheses" section (Development of the Atlantis connection) reads: "the most powerful eruption in recorded history, ejecting approximately 30 cu km (7 cu mi) of magma, up to 36 km (23 mi) high". I have not been able to confirm the 'new archaeological discories', so if anyone can, please correct accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xxaris (talk • contribs) 12:08, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

GA delisted
In order to uphold the quality of Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of September 19, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R.


 * Every statement that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs an inline citation.
 * References should state the author, publisher, publishing date and access date, if known.

Regards, Epbr123 19:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Circumstances of annexation by Greece
What were the circumstances of the annexation by Greece? Was it a territorial advance during the First Balkan War or some sort of peacetime treaty? -- Beland 06:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Sootopolis City in Pokemon and wrong picture caption
I don't know if this would be a random fact or something, but a city in Pokemon Ruby and Sapphire is based on Santorini, which is pretty awesome. It is called Sootopolis City in the game.

Also, a picture's caption is entirely wrong. "Houses built on the edge of the caldera" does not describe the soccer player's picture above it. HaLoGuY007 (talk) 02:16, 7 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Image should be fixed now. You might need to refresh the page a couple of time to clear the previous image from the cache. But it's back to the correct image. El Greco(talk) 02:31, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Cool HaLoGuY007 (talk) 23:14, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Thera hypothese
We already have a Minoan Eruption article which is much better than this. This bit is pretty rubbish. Exodus Decoded may have been good TV but terrible archaeology, and try telling a Minoan expert that "Minoan civilization disappeared suddenly, at the height of its wealth and power". It didn't. Earlier the article says, correctly, "may have led indirectly to the collapse of the Minoan civilization on the island of Crete". All this section either needs removing or rewriting, at the moment the Exodus Decoded stuff is clearly POV, for instance.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Incident
It might be worth mentioning that on BBC News recently, there was an article about a man who decapitated his girlfriend in Santorini and walked around the streets with her head. The gruesome event shocked the villagers. No joke, you can find the story online at BBC News: Europe.(Myscrnnm (talk) 21:31, 3 August 2008 (UTC))


 * I found this: Unfree (talk) 18:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

What happened to the day image?
The evening image is not of the same quality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.69.75 (talk) 14:02, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Troy
Is it worth mentioning that David Gemmell wrote about the Thera eruption in his book Troy: Fall of Kings? Three major characters are priestesses there, and the eruption kills the bad guys. It causes a wave which sinks Odysseus's ship, referenced in the Odyssey, and causes chaos in Egypt, which is blamed on the rogue prince Moses. It is the pivotal event at the end of the series; should we put it down as 'in popular culture'? Fuzzibloke (talk) 16:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Nomenclature/paragraph/notation
I spoke to a man who works on Santorini today and I found out that Thira/Thera is generally used to indicate the major island in Santorini. Saying that Thira and Thera are substitutes for Santorini is probably not correct since Santorini is a collection of islands. "Municipality of Thira" is not proper because the capital city of the entire archipelago is Fira and therefore spelled as Φηρά (phi and not theta).

The first paragraph of the "Ancient and Medieval Santorini" is not well-written and therefore quite confusing. I suggest a revision of it.

I don't understand the meaning of "4.169-165" (regarding Herodotus).

ICE77 (talk) 20:41, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Thira/Thera/Santorini is the name of the main island, and by extension the entire group of islands is called Santorini (it's in some extent the same case as in Hawaii, which name is the same both for the archipel and for the main island). Thera/Thira is the antic name, Santorini was the modern name until the island was rebaptized from its ancient name (the name "Santorini" has no official status as far as I know), but people continued to use the name Santorini. Fira can be also called Thera/Thira, because in every(?) greek island the capital city bears also the name of the entire island.--Phso2 (talk) 17:18, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Santorini is not the name of the main island of the archipelago: the man who works here explained this to me and this article starts by defining Santorini as a collection of islands. Either the local man I spoke to is wrong or this article has a wrong definition. The fact Hawaii is one of the islands in the state of Hawaii is just a concidence (the name of the main island has been extended to the rest of the archipelago or viceversa, I don't know what is the case). I don't know if Santorini is an official name but it's widely used all over the main island in the archipelago. At the airport I read Santorini in Greek. Fira is marked as Thira/Θηρά in Google Maps. This is not correct since all I see as I travel on the main island is Fira/Φηρά. The fact itself that theta and phi are two different letters should be enough to prove this point. Not all main islands in Greece bear the names of the major/capital cities on the islands. Iraklion and Crete are one of many examples.

ICE77 (talk) 08:20, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you sure that "this man who works here" is well informed? You didn't mention who he is.  Did you read the wikipedia article in Greek? (if no, it says Santorini is the name of the main island). It's no wonder the name Santorini can be used for the main island or the group of island, since the other islands are of very little importance. In Google map they use Θηρα/Thira for the name of the capital (it's one of the possibilities, Fira can be called Thira because it's the capital of the island), but they use "Ormos Firon" (with Φ) as the name of the port (since it's "the port of Fira"). In fact, both of the names (Fira/Thira) are "correct",  it's the same with the numerous "Chora" on islands. Iraklion and Crete are not a good example: the city was rebaptized (from an antic name) early XXth century, but for centuries before, the name of both the island and the capital was Candia/Candie. The problems of the names of greek cities is often complicated because of the many langages that were used in the country's history (in some case there can be a "purist greek name" and a "popular greek name", in addition to the "middle-age-but-still-used-name")--Phso2 (talk) 11:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

The man I spoke to is Greek, lives on Thira and manages a business and he happens to be working in the field of tourism so he is well-informed. His name is not important. I respect his privacy and I am not here to invent things but to provide constructive comments on what I read and what I saw. I did not read this article in Greek because I am not able to do that yet (if the article in Greek says that Santorini is the name of the main island then it is in contrast with what the English version of the same article says since Santorini is defined as an archipelago there). Once again, all I saw on the main island was Φηρά/Fira for the capital of Thira (Θηρα/Thira does not appear anywhere, at least on street signs). Iraklion and Crete are indeed a good current example. Going back in time proving your point is useless. I am talking about now. Besides, the old names were Candia for the island and Χάνδαξ/Chandax or Χάνδακας/Chandakas for the city (not the same).

ICE77 (talk) 20:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It's evident that I didn't ask you the name of this man or personnal details, I just asked how reliable he was (since he's a greek living there, he's indeed more reliable than a english musician working there for the season, for example...); I don't accuse you to invent things either. I just try to explain why there are such ambiguities in the names of greek islands cities. Now for the present discussion:


 * the article in english states Santorin is an archipel: I would say "Santorin (aka Thera) is an island that forms a archipel with other smaller islands". Look at this old map, it says "Santorin island (ancient Thera)". Why does this man say that Santorin is NOT the name of the main island? I don't know. Anyway, the one who wrote the greek article (saying Thera/Santorini are alternate names) is also greek.
 * on the island, street signs show Fira because it would make no sense to call it "Thira" in street signs, but look at the municipal districts in the municipality of Thira there, it says that "Thira (district)" is a municipal district of the "municipality of Thira", whose seat is Fira, small town of "the homonymous municipal district"(=Thira). This show how this locality can have different names, according to the way one thinks (as the capital city, as a locality among others, on street signs or on a map...) For other exemple: on Naxos (island) roads signs, "Naxos (city)" is written as "Chora" in greek, but Naxos (city) bears also the name "Naxos", not just Chora.
 * for the Cretan example, I don't understand what you want to prove ("Going back in time proving your point is useless. I am talking about now.")??? The fact is, that most of the islands capital cities can be called by the name of the island, you won't find many examples against that. Besides, for Candia/Candie being used for the city AND the island, just have a look there or there or there or read an ancient book)--Phso2 (talk) 22:10, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Notable smallness
"... a notably small presence of hornblende." What makes the smallness of the presence notable? Unfree (talk) 18:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Saint Irene
There seem to be several Saint Irenes. Which one did the Venetians name Santorini for, specifically? Lily20 (talk) 19:53, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Atlantis theories
I think the two sections on Atlantis and Exodus speculation should be reduced to a single sentence with a link to the Atlantis page. They are given far too much prominence here for an article that is supposed to be about Santorini, not Atlantis. And giving so much space to the Exodus stuff here gives the page an eccentric, amateurish feel. Strawberryjampot (talk) 04:53, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * A very good idea. Dougweller (talk) 07:30, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Disagree. Archaeologists have proved beyond any doubt that as far as Thera is concerned that Atlantis is more than just a theory. I have added a reference that confirms what is already known. "Has the real Atlantis finally been found … under a modern holiday paradise?" by Bettany Hughes DailyMail.co.uk, Mail Online, 31 May 2010 Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 16:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Re, four issues: This is all so blindingly obvious … Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:35, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) The Atlantis hypothesis is already treated much more appropriately in its own section, further down.
 * 2) It has nothing to do with the "naming" section. (Nobody has claimed the island was actually called "Atlantis" at some point.)
 * 3) A link to a tabloid newspaper is not a reliable source for claims about prehistory or archaeology.
 * 4) Much less is it a reliable source for stating as an undisputed fact that there is "compelling evidence", for what is in effect little more than a piece of WP:FRINGE speculation.


 * If you took any trouble whatsoever of actually reading the reference you would know that the article talks about a television documentary that looked in to all the current evidence in detail. The reference is: "Has the real Atlantis finally been found … under a modern holiday paradise?" by Bettany Hughes DailyMail.co.uk, Mail Online, 31 May 2010.
 * The naming information is for completeness.
 * It has everything to do with the "naming" section. Yes, the archaeologists claim that Thera was Atlantis (as per quoted documentary). I have watched the whole documentary and I'm not making this up.
 * It doesn't actually make a difference if the article is printed in a tabloid newspaper in this case. Since the information is provided by the television documentary which is discussed in the article.
 * The television documentary is a reliable source since the research was provided by the leading archaeologists on Thera and not by theory-driven quacks.
 * So, it is not "blindingly obvious" as you have suggested. Nor is it WP:FRINGE speculation. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 16:46, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh dear. Now he's changed it to "Archaeologists have shown compelling evidence, in the documentary called "Atlantis, The Evidence" that suggests that Thera is Plato's Atlantis." . Will this never end? The only thing they present "compelling evidence" for is that there was an amazing early civilization, and that there was a big volcano eruption. Neither finding is remotely new, and we are already covering all of it. The connection with Atlantis is still nothing but suggestive speculation, and nowhere presented as anything other than that in the actual piece you cite. And a TV documentary mirrored in a tabloid is still not a reliable source. Go read some peer-reviewed specialized archaeology journals. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:07, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The documentary that is referenced in the article was written by a presenter of the documentary who interviewed the archaeologists that have been excavating there. I had also added a BBC TV reference concerning the documentary. I would just like to point out that you appear to enjoy arguing with me because you do it so regularly (and it doesn't appear to matter where I edit). Do you not agree that the BBC TV reference of the documentary is at least a worthwhile reference. Two other documentaries were cited in the article. Is there anything wrong with citing another documentary concerning the subject. I have watched all of these Santorini documentaries and the documentary that I have introduced today is the best one yet. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 18:05, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Add it as another source for the current text, fine. Continue to add it to say 'compelling evidence', absolutely not. And I don't see anything new in the Daily Mail article - what is new since the 2007 program in terms of excavations? Dougweller (talk) 18:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Article Should be Thera, not Santorini
The title of this article should be Thera, not Santorini. Thera is the legal and officially recognized name of the island, and Santorini continues only colloquially, and not in every nation or culture at that. Is the Wiki entry on Istanbul called Constantinople? Is the St. Petersburg entry entitled Leningrad? Do we have articles on Rhodesia? French Inchochina? Saigon? The use of Santorini as the "real name" on wiki and Thera as the "also known as" is an example of ethnocentric bias and should be stopped. TheCormac (talk) 18:26, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if there is no official status for the name Santorini, the use is a bit more than only colloquial, it's used for instance as the "main" name on the airport webpage, largely used on the municipal website, and it's the title of the Greek WP page. There is no ethnocentric bia there, since "Thera" is nothing but the reviving of the Ancient Greek name against the vernacular name "Santorini" backing from centuries ago.--Phso2 (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with TheCormac on this issue. Nipsonanomhmata (talk) 16:28, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * No. Place-names may be different in different languages. A name in another language (an "exonym") is proper usage. Even within one country, names differ between languages: a man of Brussels will call his home town Bruxelles when he speaks French and Brussel when he speaks Flemish. The folk of Switzerland have at least three names for every town and for their own country:  no one form is any more "correct" and there is no "True Name"; they are all correct in the relevant language.


 * Closer to (my) home, the British capital is named "London" in English but Llundain in Welsh, Lunnainn in Scottish Gaelic and Londain in Irish Gaelic, and all are correct. When writing in French, London must be called Londres. We do not call Rome Roma, nor Venice Venezia, nor Athens Athena, nor Geneva Genève (or Genf). We do not insist that Edimbourg be Edinburgh.


 * It is not discourteous when writing in English to use the name used in English. There are those who think that the choice of name raises a socio-political point but this is to pick fights when there are none. When I call a certain Rhineland city Cologne instead the German Köln I am not implying that it ought to be handed over to the French; it is simply the city's name in English.  Anglesey is a mainly Welsh-speaking island, but it is still "Anglesey" in English and were it to become entirely English-speaking, it would still be Môn in Welsh, just as London is Llundain in Welsh notwithstanding that Welsh has not been its language for 15 centuries.


 * Local languages need support, but forcing a language's usages into inappropriate places may generate hostility.


 * Wikipedia is not vehicle for propaganda and it is not a mechanism for changing existing usage nor eliminating variety. Hogweard (talk) 09:27, 7 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Jealous? 2601:8C0:700:3600:C807:20BB:7F2:F96B (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

There seems to be a lack of consistency over the names of some of these Greek islands. Zakynthos is preferred to Zante (Xante) for example: On that basis Thera (Thira) should be preferred to Santorini which seems to be a tourist name used by travel companies. As for Paxos the aricle is very confused indeed settling on the plural Paxi.--Dorkinglad (talk) 14:37, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Vulcanic Titanic
There was a major cruise ship that sank in the caldera a few years ago. Cruise-lining gets too little mention in the current Santorini article. 91.82.36.49 (talk) 12:35, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Cable Car
Have a look to the website of santorini cable car. Who writes some words about it?--Ohrnwuzler (talk) 21:02, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Needs an update in light of recent observations...
http://www.nature.com/news/researchers-monitor-volcanic-activity-at-santorini-1.11043

2012 magma uplift
Currently, August 2012, the island in the centre of the Santorini caldera, has risen about 15cm in the last 18 months. Speculated at a rising bolus of magma. Suma rongi (talk) 08:31, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The consequences of the eruption
When a vulcano with about 6 miles in diameter erupts in the see, what happens? Well, a huge Tsunami will start, buring every city within the Mediterranean see. So that's what the bible wrote about: (Mi)Noah. Makes all sense now...by the way I searched for this place for many years, it's unbelievable that we don't learn about this catastrophe in schools! --178.197.236.244 (talk) 14:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
 * The Bible tells of a flood created by 40 straight days of rain. Your conclusion doesn't make any sense and it makes me doubt you actually read Genesis.--Atlan (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Map showing Santorini's relative location, or not
In the right-most column, underneath the Municipality of Thera coat of arms (labeled only as "Seal"), there's a thumbnail image that shows the location of Santorini in the Aegean Sea. (The Aegaean Sea is unlabeled.) The tiny thumbnail includes a red dot labeled "Santorini / Thera."

When I click on the thumbnail, it opens to a big map of Greece, "File:Greece_location_map.svg."

Problem is that the red dot and its label are not being displayed on the big map, on my old XP laptop. So when I click on the thumbnail in the Santorini article, I'm getting a big map of Greece that doesn't show where Santorini is. If the problem only occurs on old XP laptops, then I'll accept it's a non-issue. Thanks, Nei1 (talk) 00:50, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://www.thira.gov.gr/portal/page/portal/thira/
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Date
"Minoan Eruption" etc. doesn't really give a date or timeline on the eruption. It could give est. 1500 BCE with some minor discussion as to dating. I do know there are sources out there suggesting a more precise date, right or wrong. - madman101 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.111.154 (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2018 (UTC)