Talk:Schism of the Russian Church

Change name
How about changing the name of the article to, for example, the Schism of Old Beleivers to follow the policy to use English terms except when necessary? And keep raskol entry as aredirect, of course. Maybe there are better names. Just a suggestion. --Irpen 08:56, July 25, 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the name is rather OK. It is the known term. I've read about a book of some Pierre Paskal 'Avvakum et les débuts du raskol'. It looks like the word is known not only in Russia, but also abroad. Am I right? Arseni 09:07, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi Arseni, while Raskol may be a known term it is not widely used and the alternative Schism of Old Believers or smth along these lines would describe the exact same thing no less precisely, without any loss of meaning and using a more common English terminology. One thing is when we use a native word for oblast, raion, volost, etc. for the specific terms whose translations vary from usage to usage and none of the alternative english words (region, province, district, county, etc) is clearly the best or identical. Another thing is Raskol, which is just the particular schism in the history of Christianity. In any case, I am all for introducing "raskol" in the first line of the renamed article and keeping the entry raskol as a redirect. Or raskol may evolve into a separate article about the term itslef.

As for the separating of an article about the schism itself from the article about the denomination (Old Believers), I think it is a valid point in general. The OB is a more broad topic and the "schism" article may be a more detailed account of a chapter in OB. But as of now, while there is much more to be said, perhaps it is still preferred to consentrate on the OB article and add the the info about the Schism there first. Let's see, what other editors have to say about it. Regards, --Irpen 05:18, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, maybe you're right. I can't judge English usage of Russian words of course =) Arseni 08:53, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I believe Raskol is the proper English term for this schism. --Ghirlandajo 08:42, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

I just posted a note at Russia portal. We'll see what others think. --Irpen 09:27, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Other editors, please voice your opinion about the name. If this is placed for a vote at WP:RM it sill certainly be renamed to something similar to the name I suggested, because anglophones will certainly vote for a more familiar "Schism" than for a odd sounding "raskol". I would rather have this decided by the editors who have a clue on the subject. I prefer Schizm of Old Believers. Ghirlandajo prefers current Raskol. Arseni is fine with a Schism but seem to prefer "Raskol" slightly. Who else? --Irpen 02:52, August 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Hi there, gentlemen! I would be more comfortable with Raskol, but the Schism of Old Believers should be a redirect to the main article at Raskol. KNewman 22:30, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Does anybody have new thoughts on this? In Russian Раскол (Raskol/schism) has a disambiguation page, while this page has a more specific title of Раскол Русской церкви (Schism of the Russian church). Are there any English-language sources that refer to this schism primarily as as "Raskol" without already having the implied context of a schism of the Russian church? I think it would make sense to follow the Russian pages and move this page to Schism of the Russian Orthodox Church with a redirect from the current title. Strange Quirk (talk) 19:50, 7 March 2022 (UTC)


 * I agree with this proposal. Vincent J. Lipsio (talk) 22:21, 7 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Hearing no objections I've moved the page. Strange Quirk (talk) 03:25, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

Crime and Punishment
As I posted elsewhere, 'raskol' is only seen in critical editions of Crime and Punishment. The Old Believers are quite obscure from the American point of view (and I would guess, from the British and Australian one as well; the Canadians do have some experience with them). As an article name Old Believers is fine, as this is the usual English term on the few occasions you come across it. If you want a neutral synonym for 'schism', try 'secession', and when describing the people themselves, 'dissenters', or even, 'refusnik' (a fine Rus-glish portmanteau).--FourthAve 03:38, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Neil Stephenson's recent Baroque cycle also contains a few paragraphs on the topic.

Ukrainian influence
I think it's worth mentioning that the schism happened the same year as the Pereyaslav Rada and that Nikon was influenced by Kiev clerics, who used newer translations etc. A couple of sources come to mind: Nikolai Trubetskoy and Victor Zhivov. Sergivs-en (talk) 08:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)